Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[silveth]

It's not puzzling. Grand jury investigations are in no way fair. They are run by prosecutors to get the results they want. They usually want to indict, but in this case, they (probably, since GJ investigations are sealed), only called the witness who claimed to hear them announce themselves. And because it's much harder to bring perjury charges on grand jury testimony, it's often a free forum for cops/prosecutors and their witnesses to lie and embellish, seeing as no defense attorneys are allowed in the proceedings.

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I like how people ignore that this warrant was made up on a bullshit "tip" by an anonymous postal informant who was not named in the warrant, and hasn't been produced since. And seeing as both Taylor's personal postal delivery person and the person who usually coordinates with the police on warrants have publicly said they in no way, shape, or form testified to police that a suspicious package was delivered to Taylor's address....one has to assume the cops made it up.

Which means their very purpose for being there was a "bad faith" hunch, that they lied about on a sworn affadavit.

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Crickets in this thread for 42 minutes as the conservatives scramble to find their talking points on this one (hint: there are none).

Well that was why everyone was pushing for process and policy changes to try to stop it from happening again. I haven't heard anyone say that the policies for how the warrant was obtained shouldn't be changed to lower something like this from happening in future, nor have I heard anyone say that the investigation against the whole process shouldn't be completed and the people responsible (if they screwed up) being held accountable. But maybe I just missed them saying it.

[Elegiac]

Not murder though.

Congratulations, it's an instance of civil injustice and incompetence that stops just short of murder.

That's quite a win you got there. Lol. *slow clap*

[draynay]

Well that was why everyone was pushing for process and policy changes to try to stop it from happening again.

So the solution is to implement policy saying "stop breaking the law"? Falsifying warrants and manufacturing evidence is just bad policy and not outright illegality?

[Themius]

It’s clear cut that the police department and the city screwed up. It’s clear that there shouldn’t have been a no knock warrant.

It’s less clear that the cop who shot her, who was just a guy going on a raid he was told to go on, is responsible for murder/manslaughter. He didn’t get the warrant and he wasn’t on a swat team so he had less training for something like this.

Did they botch it? Yes. Are there numerous people who should be accountable and lose their jobs? Yes.

Not murder though.

What do you think about charges for the cop who shot into the apartment of the white neighbour while there were no charges for the shots that went into the black neighbours apartment?

it seems to me, and anyone who isn't a racist cop supporting "blue-lives-matter" mantra repeater, that it is clear.

Black lives do not matter.

The life of a white person in an apartment not shot mattered more than Breonna

the life of the black person who also had shots fired into their apartment did not matter.

Let me guess you need to know more about the black person in the other apartment... let me lay it out. They were in their apartment, random shots entered their apartment putting them in danger.

Now for the white person, they were in their apartment, random shots entered their apartment putting them in danger.

But only the white life mattered.

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So the solution is to implement policy saying "stop breaking the law"? Falsifying warrants and manufacturing evidence is just bad policy and not outright illegality?

The postmaster no one can find, or cite. IN fact, the postmaster refuted them.

The fact they falsified a warrant means they entered an apartment they had no right to and then killed someone. But people like Scrod and others in this thread, who fucking cares, it was just a black person.

[Themius]

I'm not trying to win anything here. I'm not one of those people who is on the same side of every single case. The guy who killed George Floyd, yep, time to go after him. I'm just trying to apply common sense instead of jumping to a conclusion.

Breonna Taylor's family is going to get a huge settlement from the city, and the cops are fired. The no knock warrants rules have been changed. I think there's probably more to do there because it sounds like the "no knock" warrants are not really very different from the ones where you do knock, but still, things have changed. Body cams are now required on raids.

But there are thousands of protesters on the streets trying to get someone put in jail for murder. That's not justice. It's just not. It's irrational, and directly playing into Trump's hands.

Do you not care about the falsified report that directly led to her death do you feel cops shouldn't be culpable for deaths when they lie???? What type of fucking system do you one? One that allows you to go around killing black and brown people for fun and saying at the end "oopsie daisy well the state pays means nothing to me hehe"

Your opinion is worth....exactly nothing.

[Themius]

Just FYI I have you on ignore after your outrageous behavior the other day. So if this response is addressed to me, please don't bother. Feel free to respond and tell others what you think of it. Just wanted to let you know why I'm never going to respond to you.

Oh, he has me on ignore because I have utterly destroyed his fake concern bullshit.

That's very cute... he couldn't handle it and decided to ignore. Kind of how that other guy put me on ignore because I called him racist..and he tried to prove to me he wasn't racist by saying calling people ni**er isn't racist when he's angry.... very rich... very very rich.

[kail]

It’s clear cut that the police department and the city screwed up. It’s clear that there shouldn’t have been a no knock warrant.

It’s less clear that the cop who shot her, who was just a guy going on a raid he was told to go on, is responsible for murder/manslaughter. He didn’t get the warrant and he wasn’t on a swat team so he had less training for something like this.

Did they botch it? Yes. Are there numerous people who should be accountable and lose their jobs? Yes.

Not murder though.

Someone was shot and killed. At the very least, manslaughter is warranted. Losing a job being the sole punishment is laughable.

[Elegiac]

I'm not trying to win anything here. I'm not one of those people who is on the same side of every single case. The guy who killed George Floyd, yep, time to go after him. I'm just trying to apply common sense instead of jumping to a conclusion.

Breonna Taylor's family is going to get a huge settlement from the city, and the cops are fired. The no knock warrants rules have been changed. I think there's probably more to do there because it sounds like the "no knock" warrants are not really very different from the ones where you do knock, but still, things have changed. Body cams are now required on raids.

But there are thousands of protesters on the streets trying to get someone put in jail for murder. That's not justice. It's just not. It's irrational, and directly playing into Trump's hands.

You're right - it isn't justice, because the pigs killed a woman and got away with it with nothing more than losing their job.

Which, as has been pointed out repeatedly, is not actually a significant consequence given that many disgraced cops tend to show up re-hired at other jurisdictions - especially likely, given that the pigs in question show no remorse for their actions and will likely continue to pursue paths in law enforcement having learned nothing and setting that example.

Fundamentally, the police are still within their rights to kill you within your own home and the consequence will be no severe than a temporary disruption of employment. So no, sweetheart; Black lives did not matter in this case, and you continue to carry water for it.

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Why is manslaughter warranted?

Better question: what do you think throwing this guy in jail for a long time will accomplish that firing wouldn't?

Y'all really don't see the difference between actual legal punishment and a temporary dislocation in employment huh, lol.

The copaganda is real in our culture I guess.

[Themius]

The copaganda is real in our culture I guess.

Mostly just in white America and its fascist allies the world over.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean, the facts of this case don't support the conclusion that the cops can just get away with killing you. The facts support the idea that if they storm into your place with a no knock warrant and you shoot one of them, they will fire back. I'm 100% in agreement that the no knock warrant was not justified in this case, and now the rules have changed.

What do you think the cops' actual motivations were? Do you think they went there planning to kill somebody?

And yes, I agree that a cop fired with cause for something like this shouldn't get to be a cop anymore. That makes total sense.

Even without motivation or intent them killing some one would be manslaughter at the very least, them not even getting that is a show case of them getting away with killing you.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

My motivation question was not about the case for manslaughter, my question on motivation was more asking whether people think that this was racist cops shooting a black person or an arrest warrant gone horribly wrong. I think it's the latter. You can make an argument that it's about problems with the system, but that again points towards changing the system, not imprisoning the cops.

and In either case the lack of a murder or manslaughter conviction show cases that cops can just get away with killing you.

[Endus]

Why is manslaughter warranted?

If you committed an unjustifiable homicide, intentional or not, and the circumstances were not such that the death was an accident for which you bear no blame (someone leaping in front of your car and giving you no chance to avoid them, say), then manslaughter's appropriate.

If it's intentional (and it's hard to say that this officer's act was an accident), then we can upgrade that to actual murder, but if you want to argue that it wasn't, that knocks it down to manslaughter.

"Wanton endangerment" should be an extra charge filed, or a charge used when no one was injured. This officer is not being charged with Taylor's death. The counts of wanton endangerment are for bullets that penetrated into other apartments. And not even all of those apartments; only those of white residents, as it happens.

The charges are a seemingly deliberately racist insult.

Better question: what do you think throwing this guy in jail for a long time will accomplish that firing wouldn't?

A broader sense of justice served. Since he'd be charged with the crimes he committed, and face justice accordingly, whereas right now, he's basically getting a pass on killing Breonna Taylor, completely.

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See my previous response - cops can get away with killing you if you shoot at them.

That argument wouldn't fly for anyone but a police officer, in these circumstances.

And I've yet to hear why they'd need to be any different for officers. If anything, officers should have less legal leeway on use of force, because they're expected to be trained in that sort of thing, where the average citizen is not. There should be less legal wiggle room for officers. Not more. It's ridiculous.

There are two different discussions here, the legal one which has been discussed to death on here - I'll say it's self defense and you won't, we'll debate over the one witness who says the cops identified themselves and I'll say something about reasonable doubt, you'll say it's not reasonable, blah blah blah that seems boring to me - I'm mostly interested in the discussion about what people think the cops motivations were, which is separate from the legal one. I get the sense that a lot of people think the cops are doing this consciously out of racism. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's why I'm asking.

It doesn't matter one whit if the officers are consciously racist. If they just have some sense that the circumstances are more dangerous when dealing with black citizens, even if that's completely subconscious, that means they're a racist cop and their actions are being directed by racist views. Most racists are not conscious of it. They think they have very good reasons for feeling the way they do. They'll protest being called "racist" and bring up (manipulated or misleading) statistics, or personal experiences that are anecdotal and not evidence, and so forth. They feel they have a reason for those views.

Those reasons are what make them racists. They aren't a defense of that racism. It's no different than a serial killer telling you why it's super important that he had to kill and skin those women and eat their spleens. The reasons just explain his psychosis; it defines why he's a dangerous psychotic, not a defense for his actions.

[Themius]

If you committed an unjustifiable homicide, intentional or not, and the circumstances were not such that the death was an accident for which you bear no blame (someone leaping in front of your car and giving you no chance to avoid them, say), then manslaughter's appropriate.

If it's intentional (and it's hard to say that this officer's act was an accident), then we can upgrade that to actual murder, but if you want to argue that it wasn't, that knocks it down to manslaughter.

"Wanton endangerment" should be an extra charge filed, or a charge used when no one was injured. This officer is not being charged with Taylor's death. The counts of wanton endangerment are for bullets that penetrated into other apartments. And not even all of those apartments; only those of white residents, as it happens.

The charges are a seemingly deliberately racist insult.



A broader sense of justice served. Since he'd be charged with the crimes he committed, and face justice accordingly, whereas right now, he's basically getting a pass on killing Breonna Taylor, completely.

Don't forget to add the what appears to be a falsified report about the postmaster as there is no record and the st Louis postmasters says there was an investigation that refuted what the police were looking for also don't forget lying on the police report, oh and then asking the boyfriend to lie and say she was involved in a crime so that they'd go easy on him.

Yeah add all of that together and we get.... murder in my mind. They began by breaking the law, and then killed someone in the middle of breaking the law.

Oh and the fake information they used to get the warrant... was mostly boilerplate with no specifics yeah... what a justice system!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

See my previous response - cops can get away with killing you if you shoot at them. There are two different discussions here, the legal one which has been discussed to death on here - I'll say it's self defense and you won't, we'll debate over the one witness who says the cops identified themselves and I'll say something about reasonable doubt, you'll say it's not reasonable, blah blah blah that seems boring to me - I'm mostly interested in the discussion about what people think the cops motivations were, which is separate from the legal one. I get the sense that a lot of people think the cops are doing this consciously out of racism. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's why I'm asking.

Taylor never shot at the police an officer shooting widely(though a wall in this case blindly) and hitting some one who is not a threat to them would be manslaughter due to negligence. There is no case for self defense, them identifying them self's is irrelevant, there is no reasonable doubt, The officer shot though a wall striking some one who was not a threat and killed them that's manslaughter due to negligence there is no argument against that. rather they were there to assassinate black people or acting on a warrant does not matter to them being able to get away with killing you which is what happened.

[postman1782]

Like everyone else here, in the press. I am not just as biais as you are.

Nope, you are worse, since you blindly defend the MURDERER Rittenhouse, and blindly defend the murdering cops.

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Breonna Taylor and her home were on the warrant. This narrative that they hit the wrong place while they already had the real suspect in custody elsewhere is complete fabrication.

They intended to be at her house specifically for her.

Except the people they were looking for, were already in custody.

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Yes, feared for their lives because racism... Obviously not because someone fucking shot at them or anything like that.

Well, you tend to get shot at when you don't announce your presence and break into a random apartment.

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The issue here is the stupid law and 2A allowing you to have a gun at home to "defend" it. Guns should be for having fun at firing range or "hunting" while I do not like killing animals that way.

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At this point, you are trolling so I will be ignoring you.

Why? He is right.

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I read there there is at least one witness that said they heard the police announce themselves. Now he could be lying, or he could have been in the nearest apartment so he heard, when others farther away didn't. I can't say either way, but the announce/unannounced is not a proven fact at this point. Its one of the theories. The one question I would like to know is who shot first. But at this point we can't trust either side enough to know.

Sadly we will never know and I am sad that someone died.

Well, that witness apparently had changed his story from his first interview to his 2nd interview 2 months later.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/sole-w...ry-says-report

Phone interview of their "LONE WITNESS" directly after the shooting.

2 months later he changes his story.

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Just FYI I have you on ignore after your outrageous behavior the other day. So if this response is addressed to me, please don't bother. Feel free to respond and tell others what you think of it. Just wanted to let you know why I'm never going to respond to you.

No, you have Themius on ignore, because you keep losing.

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Why is manslaughter warranted?

Better question: what do you think throwing this guy in jail for a long time will accomplish that firing wouldn't?

Because they didn't announce themselves AND blind fired into the apartment and let her bleed out after shooting her 8 fucking times.

[Bodakane]

Why is manslaughter warranted?

Better question: what do you think throwing this guy in jail for a long time will accomplish that firing wouldn't?

You are neglecting the fact they let her die and that this was all trying to be covered up.

And at some point, justice has to be served. What is the number of black people that need to die innocently at the hands of cops before those cops are thrown in jail?

When are cops going to be held responsible by the justice system?

[Themius]

You are neglecting the fact they let her die and that this was all trying to be covered up.

And at some point, justice has to be served. What is the number of black people that need to die innocently at the hands of cops before those cops are thrown in jail?

When are cops going to be held responsible by the justice system?

Probably bout 47 million.

[Draco-Onis]

See my previous response - cops can get away with killing you if you shoot at them. There are two different discussions here, the legal one which has been discussed to death on here - I'll say it's self defense and you won't, we'll debate over the one witness who says the cops identified themselves and I'll say something about reasonable doubt, you'll say it's not reasonable, blah blah blah that seems boring to me - I'm mostly interested in the discussion about what people think the cops motivations were, which is separate from the legal one. I get the sense that a lot of people think the cops are doing this consciously out of racism. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's why I'm asking.

How about this for the legal one the cops didn't have any basis for the warrant, they disregarded evidence from post office investigators on a officer's "hunch" which got people killed. It doesn't really matter which version of the story you believe the whole thing started improperly, a officer's hunch should not Trump factual information.

[Endus]

How about this for the legal one the cops didn't have any basis for the warrant, they disregarded evidence from post office investigators on a officer's "hunch" which got people killed. It doesn't really matter which version of the story you believe the whole thing started improperly, a officer's hunch should not Trump factual information.

Any actions taken to execute a warrant that turns out to have been illegitimate should be prosecuted as crimes without any legal justification, frankly.

Your warrant turns out to have been predicated on false information that you knew to be false but would get the judge to sign off? Congrats, everything you did executing that warrant is a crime. In cases where there's a homicide, lying to get that warrant demonstrates premeditation and that should mean every death that results gets prosecuted against the officers as first-degree murder.

Don't want to risk that? Stop fucking lying to get shitty warrants. Easy fix. If you've got a problem with that, you're a corrupt, dirty cop.

[Specialka]

Nope, you are worse, since you blindly defend the MURDERER Rittenhouse, and blindly defend the murdering cops.

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Except the people they were looking for, were already in custody.

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Well, you tend to get shot at when you don't announce your presence and break into a random apartment.

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Why? He is right.

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Well, that witness apparently had changed his story from his first interview to his 2nd interview 2 months later.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/sole-w...ry-says-report

Phone interview of their "LONE WITNESS" directly after the shooting.

2 months later he changes his story.

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No, you have Themius on ignore, because you keep losing.

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Because they didn't announce themselves AND blind fired into the apartment and let her bleed out after shooting her 8 fucking times.

You should go take some air and move away from Internet for a while, you need the break.

I am not blindly defending or whatever, I am not an attorney of any party. I am just analyzing the fact I am presented. I am just more objective than you are.

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You are neglecting the fact they let her die and that this was all trying to be covered up.

And at some point, justice has to be served. What is the number of black people that need to die innocently at the hands of cops before those cops are thrown in jail?

When are cops going to be held responsible by the justice system?

If you check the timeline, they had no way of knowing they hit her and that she was dying.

One of their mistake if they did not do it, was to say that once they retreated outside the apartment to say that they were the Police and that he should surrender.

And for Walker, to say that someone was hurt and call the ambulance if he did not do it.

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Any actions taken to execute a warrant that turns out to have been illegitimate should be prosecuted as crimes without any legal justification, frankly.

Your warrant turns out to have been predicated on false information that you knew to be false but would get the judge to sign off? Congrats, everything you did executing that warrant is a crime. In cases where there's a homicide, lying to get that warrant demonstrates premeditation and that should mean every death that results gets prosecuted against the officers as first-degree murder.

Don't want to risk that? Stop fucking lying to get shitty warrants. Easy fix. If you've got a problem with that, you're a corrupt, dirty cop.

So now, we moved to premeditation ? Can you stop hyperbole please ? It is getting tiring.