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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    This really does make me upset. Arthas's character arc isn't anything more special than Sylvanas, and I don't get the Arthas love at all. He's the most cartoon villain in the whole series.
    It's because Arthas' story from WC3 to the end of Wrath was carefully crafted rather being made a villain simply because there were no major villains left.

    He's the Anakin Skywalker of Warcraft.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by scrappybristol View Post
    I just think its absurd to have 40% of the power to be on our actual characters and 60% to be on outside systems like azerite armor, legendaries, corruption, etc, etc.

    That's what it feels like at least.

    Imo the split should be more 80% character, 20% borrowed.
    If I could have it my way, I would go for that. I don't mind borrowed power at all, and it could be more than 20%, but then it should be so that skill matters. A proc or one ability doing 20-50% of your damage isn't a good feeling.

    Most of all, I want skill to matter again. And just to add, when I came back to WoW a month ago I purified all my gear of Corruption, because prior to that, I logged into PTR and seeing your character doing 80-90% damage from the class itself was refreshing.

  3. #103
    Ahh one of those "your opinions are wrong, mine are correct, I won't explain why" posts.

    Generally is a large majority of a group is complaining about something, it tends to be a genuine problem. Essentially in most cases where 100 people disagree with you and you stand alone, you're wrong.

    To consider "BFA was bad" an exaggerated opinion is laughable. Basically every feature of this expansion flopped. Warfronts were an afkfest, expeditions were ignored entirely, azerite and corruption flopped when it was more powerful than class abilities, and PvP was unplayable without PvE gear. Factor in the bafflingly terrible story along with lazily implemented allied races and you have a bad expansion.

    I don't know how you can just handwave that criticism. It's legitimate, backed up by tanking subs and the growing antagonism on the forums. Most people were optimistic at the start. The questing was great, the zones were fantastic, every endgame system failed.

  4. #104
    I get hated on constantly just for liking Taliesin, who is in turn relatively positive about the game. Toxic as all hell and I'd leave if I had better things to do with my life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  5. #105
    Quite a large wall just to complain about complainers. What you need to understand is that not everyone complains for the sake of complaining because they can't let go of the game or something, but they will also do it as they have a passion for the game and they really want to see it improved. If they were not complaining and stayed completely silent, it would just show a huge lack of interest for the game which would be even worse. Its not like you can always expect positivity towards the game either, there needs to be at least some balance.

    Its very unfair to even sweep them all together as being complaints. I've seen plenty that are actually just suggestions for the game to improve, such as ''do this or that with covenants'' and whatever they can possibly do to improve the feature. Not everyone is constructive but I don't think they need to be, just don't pay attention to them and move on to posts that are constructive instead. The same can go for every thread which you will read as just complaining about the game, just don't visit it and look somewhere else. Don't expect people to just stop complaining because it will never happen. And yes if the game does get worse and worse, then expect more complaints to come. Maybe the problem doesn't lie with the complainers then.

  6. #106
    Objectively, subs have fallen for years and years. So complainers probably have a point, and defenders have no place to stand. If subs were going up for along period of time, lots of complainers would be obnoxious. But it appears to be valid feedback and people complaining about the complainers are the obnoxious ones.
    Last edited by Die; 2020-09-26 at 10:42 PM.

  7. #107
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    First of all, I have no idea why you brought up the protests/riots. I generally agree that people focus on negativity too much, but this is a situation where the negativity is so prevalent that some people don't have the luxury to ignore it, which you fail to grasp.

    Back to WoW, you also seem to misunderstand the complaints around the covenants. Heavy borrowed power is annoying, but that's not the reason people dislike the covenants in their current implementation. The problem is that if you like Raiding, M+, and Arenas, you are unlikely to find a covenant that is good in all three. So if you like performing at a high level in all three, you're basically fucked unless the stars align and the ability is good for all three, which will be very rare.

    The other component is that some guilds and players enjoy playing at a high level and pushing themselves and would rather not be forced into a covenant, that has many cool elements outside of power such as story and cosmetics, just so that they can stay competitive.

    I'm sure there are other reasons that people don't like the covenants but those are by far the two most prevalent.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    First of all, I have no idea why you brought up the protests/riots. I generally agree that people focus on negativity too much, but this is a situation where the negativity is so prevalent that some people don't have the luxury to ignore it, which you fail to grasp.

    Back to WoW, you also seem to misunderstand the complaints around the covenants. Heavy borrowed power is annoying, but that's not the reason people dislike the covenants in their current implementation. The problem is that if you like Raiding, M+, and Arenas, you are unlikely to find a covenant that is good in all three. So if you like performing at a high level in all three, you're basically fucked unless the stars align and the ability is good for all three, which will be very rare.

    The other component is that some guilds and players enjoy playing at a high level and pushing themselves and would rather not be forced into a covenant, that has many cool elements outside of power such as story and cosmetics, just so that they can stay competitive.

    I'm sure there are other reasons that people don't like the covenants but those are by far the two most prevalent.
    The reason for bringing up riots to show an example outside of the game where people rally behind negativity as a collective. And this is part of human nature. Though that doesn't make it a positive thing all of the time.

    I do understand that that is the complaint about covenants. My issue with that complaint is why would you expect in an MMO to actually be good in all three. I find it almost borderline entitlement to be optimal in all areas of the game. You have to pick your poison so to say.

    I do have sympathy for people playing at a competetive level having issues with covenants. I also find it very annoying as a resto shaman that when I get on fights like Radiance of Aszhara, I am horrible for that fight because the strengths of my class doesn't align with how the fight works.

    However, being frustrated on this, in my opinion even though it sucks at the moment, gives depth to game and forces me to think outside the box to compensate. I find this very fun indeed even though it doesn't work out.

    To be optimal in every situation, would feel bland and boring, as it will actually be the same as being optimal in no situations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Die View Post
    Objectively, subs have fallen for years and years. So complainers probably have a point, and defenders have no place to stand. If subs were going up for along period of time, lots of complainers would be obnoxious. But it appears to be valid feedback and people complaining about the complainers are the obnoxious ones.
    Well, what if the reason for the subs going down, is because of the complainers? Both my sons quit the game because they were met with insults in dungeons trying to learn the game for the first week.

    If you somehow feel that people that bring up annoying issues about the community is being obnoxious, I would like to know how one can have a meta-discussion about how the community behave good or bad in a way that is to your satisfaction, or is this a no-go area of discussion?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    Quite a large wall just to complain about complainers. What you need to understand is that not everyone complains for the sake of complaining because they can't let go of the game or something, but they will also do it as they have a passion for the game and they really want to see it improved. If they were not complaining and stayed completely silent, it would just show a huge lack of interest for the game which would be even worse. Its not like you can always expect positivity towards the game either, there needs to be at least some balance.

    Its very unfair to even sweep them all together as being complaints. I've seen plenty that are actually just suggestions for the game to improve, such as ''do this or that with covenants'' and whatever they can possibly do to improve the feature. Not everyone is constructive but I don't think they need to be, just don't pay attention to them and move on to posts that are constructive instead. The same can go for every thread which you will read as just complaining about the game, just don't visit it and look somewhere else. Don't expect people to just stop complaining because it will never happen. And yes if the game does get worse and worse, then expect more complaints to come. Maybe the problem doesn't lie with the complainers then.
    This post is almost something I would ignore, as what you are adressing here is something that I adressed as well.

    Complaining about complainers, is not a bad thing. The universal law of minus/minus = plus is in effect here.

    I wrote in my post as well that not everbody that complains, does it for bad reasons or no reasons at all. I even have a lot of complains myself as I am testing things on PTR which I find frustrating. But I am not going to go to Youtube and adopt my opinion from someone there and be a part of a sheep mentality. Thats the issue I have problems with here. People complaining for the wrong reasons. Because those wrong reasons do exist.

    You actually strawmanned by post as I even stated I have no problems with complains or feedback if its based on actual facts or well argued.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    Ahh one of those "your opinions are wrong, mine are correct, I won't explain why" posts.

    Generally is a large majority of a group is complaining about something, it tends to be a genuine problem. Essentially in most cases where 100 people disagree with you and you stand alone, you're wrong.

    To consider "BFA was bad" an exaggerated opinion is laughable. Basically every feature of this expansion flopped. Warfronts were an afkfest, expeditions were ignored entirely, azerite and corruption flopped when it was more powerful than class abilities, and PvP was unplayable without PvE gear. Factor in the bafflingly terrible story along with lazily implemented allied races and you have a bad expansion.

    I don't know how you can just handwave that criticism. It's legitimate, backed up by tanking subs and the growing antagonism on the forums. Most people were optimistic at the start. The questing was great, the zones were fantastic, every endgame system failed.
    This is actually quite a fallacy. How many that believes something or make a specific claim, has absolutely no bearing on the fact of the case. There are plenty of examples an masse of incidents where the majority opinion has been a faulty one.

    And this comes back to the core issue of this thread. When people flock around a content creater and adopt his or her opinion quite blindly, unfounded opinions spread to the masses and you do actually end up with a majority being factually wrong about a certain topic.

    Well, rest of the things you list is your subjective opinion, you are entitled to it. For example with azerite gear. Blizzard have stated that the sole purpose of the gear is to provide gear for the chest, head and shoulders were you could pick your own "set bonus". And it achieved just that. The issue is that parts of the community sometimes expects system to be more than what they are intended to be. Just like some people expect certain covenant abilities to make them optimal in all areas of the game, which is quite unreasonable.

    In my opinion take your own subjective opinions and claim them to be objective facts about the game. A vast portion of the community doesn't feel the way you do, evidenced that BFA has around 4 million subscribers who I assume don't waste money on a game they dislike as much as you do.

    You entire post actually proves my point quite well. I couldn't actually said it better myself.

  9. #109
    Over 9000! Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    The reason for bringing up riots to show an example outside of the game where people rally behind negativity as a collective. And this is part of human nature. Though that doesn't make it a positive thing all of the time.

    I do understand that that is the complaint about covenants. My issue with that complaint is why would you expect in an MMO to actually be good in all three. I find it almost borderline entitlement to be optimal in all areas of the game. You have to pick your poison so to say.

    I do have sympathy for people playing at a competetive level having issues with covenants. I also find it very annoying as a resto shaman that when I get on fights like Radiance of Aszhara, I am horrible for that fight because the strengths of my class doesn't align with how the fight works.

    However, being frustrated on this, in my opinion even though it sucks at the moment, gives depth to game and forces me to think outside the box to compensate. I find this very fun indeed even though it doesn't work out.

    To be optimal in every situation, would feel bland and boring, as it will actually be the same as being optimal in no situations.
    It was a poor comparison. You're comparing people complaining about a video game to people protesting police brutality and systematic racism. Pretty tasteless at best.

    Also, what you're failing to understand with your "it's entitlement to suggest that you're viable in all three" comment, is that for many classes, it has been perfectly fine before. They are adding more variables where you can be screwed out of doing certain content than there ever have been. Every class should be viable in every bit of endgame content in the game. Just because they're viable doesn't mean they're all the same. Rogues are historically very good in arenas because they have a lot of stuns and burst dps. Affliction Warlocks are also good in pvp because their sustained pressure on multiple targets makes them good.

    The problem with the covenants is that some abilities will just never be good in certain content. The Venthyr hunter ability will be good in raids and probably in Arena as well, but will be bad in Mythic + due to not having an AOE component. It could be decent on Tyrannical weeks, but even then Resonating Arrow does well on Single Target and does great on AOE, so it'd still win out. So as a result of me picking Venthyr because my main priority is raiding, I will now have trouble getting into Mythic + groups, because they're going to want a Hunter that is in the Kyrian or Necrolords covenant and if they're pushing higher keys, I don't really blame them. This is extra problematic since Mythic + is part of the PVE gearing path.

    Also your Radiance of Azshara example is bad. Being bad on one fight doesn't mean you're bad overall. In fact, I feel like we agree that sometimes your class shouldn't have all the answers to a fight. Some classes should excel on some fights and be viable but not as good on others. But note that we are talking about one fight. Not a whole category of endgame content like Arenas, Mythic +, or Raiding.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by scrappybristol View Post
    I just think its absurd to have 40% of the power to be on our actual characters and 60% to be on outside systems like azerite armor, legendaries, corruption, etc, etc.

    That's what it feels like at least.

    Imo the split should be more 80% character, 20% borrowed.
    If I remove all sources of borrowed power: Azerite armor, legendaries, corruption, gear, etc(Yes gear is borrowed....)
    I have 29020 hp and 1268 str
    With all of my borrowed power:
    820k hp 11875 str

    So actual character(with no borrowed power) is HP:3.5% to 96.5% Str:10% to 90%

    But wait doji gear isn't borrow power.... Well it is an outside system on our characters(As much as legendaries), you don't keep it between patches and expansions. They have redesigned the system massively every expansion so far(see the changes to how stats on gear has worked every expansion)

  11. #111
    Pre patch cant come soon enough.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    It was a poor comparison. You're comparing people complaining about a video game to people protesting police brutality and systematic racism. Pretty tasteless at best.

    Also, what you're failing to understand with your "it's entitlement to suggest that you're viable in all three" comment, is that for many classes, it has been perfectly fine before. They are adding more variables where you can be screwed out of doing certain content than there ever have been. Every class should be viable in every bit of endgame content in the game. Just because they're viable doesn't mean they're all the same. Rogues are historically very good in arenas because they have a lot of stuns and burst dps. Affliction Warlocks are also good in pvp because their sustained pressure on multiple targets makes them good.

    The problem with the covenants is that some abilities will just never be good in certain content. The Venthyr hunter ability will be good in raids and probably in Arena as well, but will be bad in Mythic + due to not having an AOE component. It could be decent on Tyrannical weeks, but even then Resonating Arrow does well on Single Target and does great on AOE, so it'd still win out. So as a result of me picking Venthyr because my main priority is raiding, I will now have trouble getting into Mythic + groups, because they're going to want a Hunter that is in the Kyrian or Necrolords covenant and if they're pushing higher keys, I don't really blame them. This is extra problematic since Mythic + is part of the PVE gearing path.

    Also your Radiance of Azshara example is bad. Being bad on one fight doesn't mean you're bad overall. In fact, I feel like we agree that sometimes your class shouldn't have all the answers to a fight. Some classes should excel on some fights and be viable but not as good on others. But note that we are talking about one fight. Not a whole category of endgame content like Arenas, Mythic +, or Raiding.
    I never said a word about police brutality or systematic racism. People will gather behind false narratives as well as true ones. That was the point

    Viable is one thing. Optimal is something. Every specc in the game and every talent setup is VIABLE at the moment. And will also be with the covenants. What some people dont understand is that they assume their power is the most important thing you bring. Its not.

    Some people also have this odd perception that if something is below other specc, its not viable.

    If someone doesnt want to bring you to mythic+ because one of your abilities are wrong then what kind of silly people is that?

    Why would you even do a group with those people? They are simply wrong to not bring you just because you do at most 20 percent less aoe damage.

    Also, if its bursting you dont want to aoe anyway so thats when you will shine and the others not so much.

    It didn't claim a I was bad overall. I brought up ROA as an example of being bad in one fight is fine.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I get hated on constantly just for liking Taliesin, who is in turn relatively positive about the game. Toxic as all hell and I'd leave if I had better things to do with my life.
    To be fair Taliesin is one of the most toxic content creators for wow.

    He seems like a really nice person on the outside but as soon as someone disagrees with him even a little he will go to great lengths to literally put them down on stream. It happened a lot of times that i myself ignored until it one day happened to me aswell while watching his stream.
    Its an extremely uncomfortable feeling to have him use his entire stream aswell as his wife against you simply for having a different pov(its been a while but it was something about white male priviledge). He went into true dondescension mode and i literally had no way of arguing back because he wasnt even looking at the chat at that point.

    Literally a toxic person by heart.
    Extremism and radicalisation is the bane of society

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    ...
    You should also understand, that if may people say it, then problem is really exist. They repeat it after each other or some streamer just because not all of them have time or desire to analyze and consolidate all their problems into one single post. In most cases that's why sometimes players just say "X is bad".

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  15. #115
    does this post exist as an audio book ?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    You should also understand, that if may people say it, then problem is really exist. They repeat it after each other or some streamer just because not all of them have time or desire to analyze and consolidate all their problems into one single post. In most cases that's why sometimes players just say "X is bad".
    No its just mob mentality. Its easier to follow a leader and adopt his viewpoints then it is doing some critical thinking for yourself.
    Extremism and radicalisation is the bane of society

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyah View Post
    does this post exist as an audio book ?
    I know right? He literally wrote an essay. Watch out, complainers! This dude on mmo champion has had ENOUGH.

  18. #118
    Mechagnome Vrinara's Avatar
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    The WoW Community gives me a fucking headache with all the bs. Yes the game has bad shit in it. You still play it. Get over it. I'm all for opinions on how the game is. But when I see constant posts about how the game is soooo terrible, it kinda gets annoying. I think the funniest posts are the ones where people "DEMAND BLIZZARD DO THIS OR I QUIT!" posts. Or the "THIS PERSON SHOULD BE FIRED OR I QUIT!" They are probably the funniest posts I just don't read. Complaining is natural for humans. Specially when you have so many online with differing opinions. Now I will say this before some person tries to bite my head off. I do complain myself. I don't think the game is perfect, But I like to keep my complaints off the forums specially on this site. That and I don't sit here and rotate my life around these sites like a no life fake dude living in his moms basement. (Not saying every complainer is this btw.) Which brings me to the last thing. I likely WONT reply to anyone replying to me, cause tbh. At this point. It's wasted energy and I got better things to do. Jokes to make, and roasts to eat! YUM!

    OH and BTW. OP totally right. But you will get haters. Always remember. Haters gonna hate!

    Be Air my friends. Be free.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    No its just mob mentality. Its easier to follow a leader and adopt his viewpoints then it is doing some critical thinking for yourself.
    Exactly. This is core of my entire point here.

  20. #120
    Well, it is true. When people complain about every little thing, real issues get more easily ignored, which is annoying cause there are people who are the opposite and act extremely apathic even in the face of real problems.

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