How can the blood elves be okay with the San'layn and not the void elves?

[kflay]

The Warcraft Encyclopedia/Blood Elves
Even so, the prince's relatively quick acceptance of dire measures (e.g., draining magic from demons) is by no means characteristic of blood elves in general. The blood elves of Outland have by now discovered Kael'thas' agreement with Illidan, and they have for the most part become convinced of its necessity. Most blood elves still live on Azeroth, though. Few of these elves know of Kael'thas' pact with Illidan, and many would be horrified if they discovered it. Draining magic from small mana-bearing vermin is a far cry from draining magic from demons.
blood elves absorb mana from mana wrynn no fel.

Again they literally have fel crystals in the Blood Elf starter zone. Where do you think the green eyes come from? Small mana-bearing vermin?

[Rhlor]

Again they literally have fel crystals in the Blood Elf starter zone. Where do you think the green eyes come from? Small mana-bearing vermin?

dath'remar sunstrider and the foundation of quel'thalas



I understand that you know the lore of the blood / high elves

[kflay]

dath'remar sunstrider and the foundation of quel'thalas



I understand that you know the lore of the blood / high elves

whatever those pictures are, they don't show

[Rhlor]

whatever those pictures are, they don't show

mana crystals always exiet in quelthalas and this looks like this

[kflay]

mana crystals always exiet in quelthalas and this looks like this

1. I don't see anything
2. Mana crystals aren't fel crystals

I don't get what you are trying to tell me

[Aucald]

Even so, Lor'themar wasn't the one to decide to use fel and they seem to have stopped using it as soon as they could (as far as we've seen since BC).

It could have been past experiences with negative influencing magic that drove them to be banished in the first place. Elves already have a tough enough time with arcane as it is, considering how often Blizzard pulls the "blood elf goes crazy with wonky magic source and is about to screw everyone over so kill them" lever.

If you ask me, it could easily be interpreted not as hypocrisy, but as learning from past experiences with corruptive magic influences and taking steps to avoid repeating the same mistakes, until Blizzard goes full ham into the modern storytelling trope of "the thing that has a reputation for being good in this genre is actually bad and has been all along now that we've retconned 30 years of franchise history, you dumb gullible idiot" and makes the Light completely mustache-twirling oppressive evil.

What you said about them not wanting Umbric's group going down the route of Dar'Khan could be the main reason why they were banished. Dar'Khan wanted power and used his friendship with Lor'themar to gain information on their defenses to trade for it. Banishing them from the secured part of Quel'thalas would at least remove that particular danger, should they fall victim to the whispers of the void.

Also, I think it's a bit of a stretch to equate banishing those elves who'd become void elves with banishing the high elves. Weren't the void elves described as a squad or something? People threatening the security of the kingdom, the merciful thing is banishment.

They didn't have to join the Alliance, and only did so because Alleria saved them and offered them a place and guidance with the void. Still, Lor'themar shouldn't have expected them to be neutral and remain inactive by default. That said, I think if the void elves want Quel'thalas to rejoin the Alliance, then joining the fight against them on the Alliance's side probably wasn't the best way to go. The better option would've been to try and show them they can control the whispers (though I doubt their new appearance would inspire much confidence in Lor'themar and Rommath) and act as diplomats between Silvermoon and Stormwind.

Lor'themar was the regent of Quel'Thalas following Kael'Thas' departure to Outland - I don't think he was at all ignorant of Rommath's use of Fel to rebuild Silvermoon, and his lack of opposition to the plan demonstrates tacit collusion with it regardless of any personal misgivings he may have had.

Umbric's people were exiled long before they even became Void Elves, the only thing there were guilty of was opposing Rommath and his views about the Void. While the Void is indeed a threat to the Sunwell, it's one that can be managed through proximity (which is likely why the many Blood Elven Shadow Priests don't set it off). In that sense, exile was unnecessary and with Lor'themar's experience in In the Shadow of the Sun with the High Elven exiles in the Eastern Plaguelands, I would say very hypocritical on his part. Umbric's people could have been kept distant but loyal, allowed to explore their research into the Void with Silvermoon's approval as long as they obeyed the command to stay clear of the Sunwell so to avoid damaging it inadvertently. But instead exile was chosen, and as Regent-Lord of Silvermoon Lor'themar shares in the outcome of that sentence - driving Umbric and his people straight into the Alliance's fold.

As per the Void Elf recruitment quest:

Alleria Windrunner says: I sense the powers at your command. They are... considerable. You would make valuable allies of the Alliance.
Magister Umbric says: Silvermoon turned its back on us long ago. Today we are reborn... and it is fitting that we walk a new path. From this day forth, the Alliance has our loyalty.

It was the exile, as well as Alleria's actions, that made joining the Alliance an imperative for Umbric - and Lor'themar and Rommath are responsible for that, just as they are responsible for the Silver Covenant doing so when they were exiled in turn, for refusing to follow Kael's instructions i.e. Mana Tapping.

[Combatbutler]

It was the exile, as well as Alleria's actions, that made joining the Alliance an imperative for Umbric - and Lor'themar and Rommath are responsible for that, just as they are responsible for the Silver Covenant doing so when they were exiled in turn, for refusing to follow Kael's instructions i.e. Mana Tapping.

Both the high elves and the void elves deserved their exile, considering the circumstances in both cases.

[Aucald]

Both the high elves and the void elves deserved their exile, considering the circumstances in both cases.

That's entirely subjective - and given that Lor'themar relates that he feels deeply conflicted about the High Elven exile in In the Shadow of the Sun, it still paints the later exile of Umbric's people as hypocritical on his part.

[Combatbutler]

That's entirely subjective - and given that Lor'themar relates that he feels deeply conflicted about the High Elven exile in In the Shadow of the Sun, it still paints the later exile of Umbric's people as hypocritical on his part.

He might feel bad it was still the right call, if you are at the very bottom and people refuse to get the help they need to function at 100% and incite unrest they are dead-weight.

Emotions should not matter with such choices.

And considering the void elves, he was far too lenient, these guys should have been treated like twilight hammer cultists.

- - - Updated - - -

1. I don't see anything
2. Mana crystals aren't fel crystals

I don't get what you are trying to tell me

Those crystals always looked like that

https://wow.gamepedia.com/File:Dath%...Silvermoon.png

[Aucald]

He might feel bad it was still the right call, if you are at the very bottom and people refuse to get the help they need to function at 100% and incite unrest they are dead-weight.

Emotions should not matter with such choices.

He isn't quite so sold on it having been the right call, especially in light of the ramifications that later resulting from his decision - ramifications he replicated, to his dismay, with Umbric's people. The hypocrisy would be inherent in his claim that he acts in the manner that is best for Silvermoon's security and stability, but in so doing he creates yet more enemies that oppose Silvermoon at every turn (e.g. the Silver Covenant, the Void Elves). Emotions don't matter in that equation, but his actions still speak for themselves.

[Vaedan]

Of course they absorbed fel magic. Do the starting zone. They have fel crystals there and their eyes are green.

Fel crystals were used mostly to fuel their magics which rebuilded Silvermoon. We've also seen elves tapping those crystals during TBC, there are actually reports of elves who tapped into fel magics. It was not case of every elf in Quel'thalas though. Their green eyes are product of Fel radiation which was all over Quel'thalas after Rommath and his followers used fel magics to rebuild the city.

That is completely wrong. They were exiled because they refused to absorb fel magic and spoke out against it. They became wretched because of their withdrawal of magic.

You are not entirely correct either. Elves become wretched because of overindulgence of mana. Their withdrawal caused severe pains and eventually lead to huge mental struggles. As they had to control their hunger for magic, there was a danger they'll give into their addiction and lose control, resulting in consuming too much mana. That magical energy then warped their bodies and turned them into wretched. Most of wretched were also in an almost mindless state, because of addiction took hold over them. It is also likely that transformation into wretched damaged their brains. Magical withdrawal itself did not directly transformed blood elves, we've seen that happen only to Nightborne.

Elves who were exiled definitely spoke against mana tapping from living creatures, considering such act amoral if there are means to control addiction by meditations and willpower. The fact that sin'dorei decided to use fel magics to rebuild Silvermoon did not help their relations either. The only high elves known to become wretched are those of Quel'lithien which consumed energies of corrupted artifact, but we don't have any details of that.

[Combatbutler]

He isn't quite so sold on it having been the right call, especially in light of the ramifications that later resulting from his decision - ramifications he replicated, to his dismay, with Umbric's people. The hypocrisy would be inherent in his claim that he acts in the manner that is best for Silvermoon's security and stability, but in so doing he creates yet more enemies that oppose Silvermoon at every turn (e.g. the Silver Covenant, the Void Elves). Emotions don't matter in that equation, but his actions still speak for themselves.

The high elves could have caused civil unrest while the scourge and trolls were on their doorstep and they had zero allies, you are correct there would have been a better choice, sending them to the front line so that they die fighting their enemies , the void elves are a threat to their whole society, by merely existing,them being part of the enemies is still preferably to them being part of their society and causing arguably more damage from the inside.

[Aucald]

The high elves could have caused civil unrest while the scourge and trolls were on their doorstep and they had zero allies, you are correct there would have been a better choice, sending them to the front line so that they die fighting their enemies , the void elves are a threat to their whole society, by merely existing,them being part of the enemies is still preferably to them being part of their society and causing arguably more damage from the inside.

Killing his own people through a directed genocide (on the heels of what the Scourge had already done) would be worse than the exile, so that probably wouldn't help an argument against hypocrisy in any real sense - he would go from well-meaning hypocrite to complete monster following your example. As for Umbric's people, if he had kept them loyal but distant from the Sunwell they'd be no worse than Shadow Priests or Voidmages when it came to exploring the Void - they may not have even become Void Elves if they were protected and valued by Silvermoon to some degree. Now, as Void Elves loyal to the Alliance, each of them is a danger to the Sunwell and *all* of them are manifestly hostile to Silvermoon. He didn't exactly make the situation better in the end.

[Combatbutler]

Killing his own people through a directed genocide (on the heels of what the Scourge had already done) would be worse than the exile, so

It isn't outright killing them it is confronting them directly with the problem, if their comrades die due to their weakened state to the undead or trolls they should finally realize the error of their way, or can remain stubborn, sticking to their principles, defending their home with a higher chance of dying, due to their choice. Instead of demanding their people purposely weaken themselves while they are on the brink of total destruction.

- he would go from well-meaning hypocrite to complete monster following your example.

Those are basic tactics, do you see any tactician as a monster?

As for Umbric's people, if he had kept them loyal but distant from the Sunwell they'd be no worse than Shadow Priests or Voidmages when it came to exploring the Void - they may not have even become Void Elves if they were protected and valued by Silvermoon to some degree.

No, they were worse and very reckless, it is something Umbric realized himself. After all directly after his transformation he literally tells you he played with powers beyond his comprehension and paid the price. The only difference is what happened in telogrus rift would have happened in a city filled with civilians.

Now, as Void Elves loyal to the Alliance, each of them is a danger to the Sunwell and *all* of them are manifestly hostile to Silvermoon. He didn't exactly make the situation better in the end.

Yeah because the guy lets get his emotions get in the way quite often, same with Alleria she had no place at the sunwell. Umbric should have been given a choice, either stop his reckless pursuit of the void or be dealt with like the twilights hammer.

that probably wouldn't help an argument against hypocrisy in any real sense

Lor'themar is a hypocrite but it relates to night elves the blood elves were angry at their exile yet they did the same to the high elves. That one works in these circumstances, in a way. But looking at both high elves and void elves, he was very lenient.

[Ardenaso]

That's entirely subjective - and given that Lor'themar relates that he feels deeply conflicted about the High Elven exile in In the Shadow of the Sun, it still paints the later exile of Umbric's people as hypocritical on his part.

if I'm not mistaken the latest Lor'themar's poem also shows this

[Aucald]

It isn't outright killing them it is confronting them directly with the problem, if their comrades die due to their weakened state to the undead or trolls they should finally realize the error of their way, or can remain stubborn, sticking to their principles, defending their home with a higher chance of dying, due to their choice. Instead of demanding their people purposely weaken themselves while they are on the brink of total destruction.

Those are basic tactics, do you see any tactician as a monster?

Sending dissidents who are already in a weakened state (regardless of reason) to pointedly die in a doomed mission so as to remove a stumbling block to one's political hegemony? Yes, that's basically textbook genocide and the actions of a monstrous tyrant. Exile didn't improve the lot of either the Blood Elves or the High Elves, it fundamentally sent the exiles to what could be their doom in any case, as was the case with those in Quel'Lithien who were unable to defend themselves from Nathanos' assault. The High Elves were Lor'themar's people as well, native sons and daughters of Silvermoon who fought in the Third War to defend their nation - as Regent Lord, it was his duty to protect and defend them even if it made his job difficult, because that's what a leader is supposed to do. He exiled them because he lacked the political ability and wherewithal to successfully reckon with a growing schism - the exile of the High Elves was a failure to lead on Lor'themar's part. The same is true of his treatment of Umbric's people, and has shown something of a pattern in Lor'themar's leadership of Silvermoon, at any sign of internal division he tends to exile dissident elements as opposed to attempting any forms of diplomacy.

No, they were worse and very reckless, it is something Umbric realized himself. After all directly after his transformation he literally tells you he played with powers beyond his comprehension and paid the price. The only difference is what happened in telogrus rift would have happened in a city filled with civilians.

Umbric was reckless with the artifact he found in Telogrus Rift, yes; and his recklessness was informed by his need to prove himself and his followers as having value - a product of their exile. The situation could've easily been resolved by not exiling Umbric put giving him and his followers a safe place to do their Void research away from the Sunwell. Their transformation also wouldn't have happened if Alleria wasn't a factor, as Nexus-Prince Durzaan was tracking her specifically, well before she came to Telogrus Rift.

Yeah because the guy lets get his emotions get in the way quite often, same with Alleria she had no place at the sunwell. Umbric should have been given a choice, either stop his reckless pursuit of the void or be dealt with like the twilights hammer.

There are a number of diplomatic solutions between those outcomes that were entirely left off the table.

Lor'themar is a hypocrite but it relates to night elves the blood elves were angry at their exile yet they did the same to the high elves. That one works in these circumstances, in a way. But looking at both high elves and void elves, he was very lenient.

As I said previously, Lor'themar is a hypocrite in many ways - I agree on the Night Elven point as well, but feel it's equally applicable to the Void Elves and his handling of their plight.

[Ardenaso]

also, above all else - Blood Elves are still the real High Elves, and the Alliance High Elves are posers

[Combatbutler]

Sending dissidents who are already in a weakened state (regardless of reason) to pointedly die in a doomed mission so as to remove a stumbling block to one's political hegemony? Yes, that's basically textbook genocide and the actions of a monstrous tyrant.

And? It would have been a more effective solution to the problem.

Exile didn't improve the lot of either the Blood Elves or the High Elves, it fundamentally sent the exiles to what could be their doom in any case, as was the case with those in Quel'Lithien who were unable to defend themselves from Nathanos' assault. The High Elves were Lor'themar's people as well, native sons and daughters of Silvermoon who fought in the Third War to defend their nation - as Regent Lord, it was his duty to protect and defend them even if it made his job difficult, because that's what a leader is supposed to do.

His job is to look after the well being of the nation and such decision always cause deaths, using the "high elves" in such a manner would have reduced the casualties among those who were willing to pull their weight and the high elves would have been confronted with the consequences of their decision, probably rethinking their stance.

He exiled them because he lacked the political ability and wherewithal to successfully reckon with a growing schism - the exile of the High Elves was a failure to lead on Lor'themar's part. The same is true of his treatment of Umbric's people, and has shown something of a pattern in Lor'themar's leadership of Silvermoon, at any sign of internal division he tends to exile dissident elements as opposed to attempting any forms of diplomacy.

He exiled them due to the state the kingdom was in, it was on the brink of utmost collapse ,those who refused the methods actually caused a schism in their society and as such endangered the entire population. At that point you make a hard decision there is no real room for compromise at such a state, either they shut up and pull their weight or they get cut loose to use precious resources, where it is needed most.

Umbric was reckless with the artifact he found in Telogrus Rift, yes; and his recklessness was informed by his need to prove himself and his followers as having value - a product of their exile. The situation could've easily been resolved by not exiling Umbric put giving him and his followers a safe place to do their Void research away from the Sunwell. Their transformation also wouldn't have happened if Alleria wasn't a factor, as Nexus-Prince Durzaan was tracking her specifically, well before she came to Telogrus Rift.

Very debatable and I don't see it that way, studying the void to that degree is utterly retarded.

There are a number of diplomatic solutions between those outcomes that were entirely left off the table.

In those circumstances? Not really again the trolls were at their doorstep and the scourge was coming at them hard, the only reason they had a fighting chance, where the methods rommath brought back with him and even then it was a very close call.

As I said previously, Lor'themar is a hypocrite in many ways - I agree on the Night Elven point as well, but feel it's equally applicable to the Void Elves and his handling of their plight.

It isn't because both of them were a fundamental threat to the very survival of the kingdom.

[Aucald]

And? It would have been a more effective solution to the problem.

Mass murder is almost always markedly effective at removing a leader's troubles, that doesn't make it good leadership, or meritorious by any means.

His job is to look after the well being of the nation and such decision always cause deaths, using the "high elves" in such a manner would have reduced the casualties among those who were willing to pull their weight and the high elves would have been confronted with the consequences of their decision, probably rethinking their stance.

The High Elves were part of the nation he was empowered to protect - killing (or exiling) them because it was expedient is not good leadership no matter how you attempt to spin it.

He exiled them due to the state the kingdom was in, it was on the brink of utmost collapse ,those who refused the methods actually caused a schism in their society and as such endangered the entire population. At that point you make a hard decision there is no real room for compromise at such a state, either they shut up and pull their weight or they get cut loose to use precious resources, where it is needed most.

Except he didn't make a hard decision, he made an easy and shortsighted one - something he admits to himself later on. The hard decision would've been mediating with the High Elven dissidents, hearing their concerns, and at least attempting to reach some kind of compromise. In light of the fact that the High Elves basically overcame their Arcane addiction in time doesn't help the argument that Lor'themar ultimately did the right thing.

Very debatable and I don't see it that way, studying the void to that degree is utterly retarded.

Except for the fact that they were successful, granted access to potent new abilities, and now serve the Alliance as weapons against Silvermoon and the Horde.

In those circumstances? Not really again the trolls were at their doorstep and the scourge was coming at them hard, the only reason they had a fighting chance, where the methods rommath brought back with him and even then it was a very close call.

The exile of the High Elves changes nothing of that scenario, though; as they were exiled they couldn't serve in Silvermoon's defense as it was.

It isn't because both of them were a fundamental threat to the very survival of the kingdom.

I don't think so, and neither does Lor'themar ultimately (in the case of the High Elves at least).

[Rhlor]

1. I don't see anything
2. Mana crystals aren't fel crystals

I don't get what you are trying to tell me