A few issues will need to be addressed with TBC

[Heathy]

i'm not your friend. the whole game is the real game ya muppet. play it or don't.

levelling is dead and yet mid day monday there are over 100 ppl levelling on my server alone.

https://imgur.com/a/eiPPKSq

[Mosha]

i'm not your friend. the whole game is the real game ya muppet. play it or don't.

Oh yeah, that's why leveling 1-58 is so populated and 80% of alts just sit in dungeons while 60s just carry them.

Makes sense. There's no reason to force people to level 1-58 in classic tbc

[Heathy]

i just did various /whos to see how many ppl are at different level ranges, ppl are still levelling its not dead, is that like how everything is dead because its not interesting to you personally? so its dead based on that alone?

every body is dead dave, they're all dead, all dead dave.

if it was that bad you wouldn't be able to find ppl to level with but the evidence is to the contrary. its not what i'm seeing on my server. dead levelling, no groups etc, quite the opposite.

the mistake you're making is assuming that you're forced to do anything. you either want to play the game or you don't.

[Mosha]

i just did various /whos to see how many ppl are at different level ranges, ppl are still levelling its not dead, is that like how everything is dead because its not interesting to you personally? so its dead based on that alone?

every body is dead dave, they're all dead, all dead dave.

if it was that bad you wouldn't be able to find ppl to level with but the evidence is to the contrary. its not what i'm seeing on my server. dead levelling, no groups etc, quite the opposite.

Leveling always dies on vanilla-tbc servers, it just happens. What did you find 20 people under the level of 60 and 19 of them were in dungeons and you told yourself "Look they aren't dead guise leveling is still a thing"

Dude don't kid yourself come tf on. Anyone who plays this game for 5 seconds knows what is going on.

[OokOok]

Classic is a cash cow, they won't merge the servers. The chances of TBC i'd say are pretty slim, Blizzard could restart classic servers and it'd still be enjoyable because Classic has actual replay value. TBC doesn't have that, Arena in TBC was really bad. Dailies, were really bad. The only good thing out of the expansion were the raids and anyone who actually did them knows it's only a couple of fights in each raid that are worth talking about.

I promise you, if blizzard made fresh classic servers they would be packed, I know tons of people and have read tons of threads of people asking for fresh servers. You will NEVER see someone at the end of TBC ask for fresh TBC servers, who wants to do dailies/rep farming all over again? who wants to grind 5000 gold again, who wants to farm motes of air again or Nether rep. No one.

[Heathy]

Leveling always dies on vanilla-tbc servers, it just happens. What did you find 20 people under the level of 60 and 19 of them were in dungeons and you told yourself "Look they aren't dead guise leveling is still a thing"

Dude don't kid yourself come tf on. Anyone who plays this game for 5 seconds knows what is going on.

dude your condescending attitude is boring. you assume too much and know nothing. I didn't whisper anyone I just used my skills of deductive reasoning to look and see within the game with my own eyes that there are ppl levelling, quite a lot more than 20 ppl through all level ranges. most are in fact not in dungeons but in a zone that is their level.

[Unholyground]

I have a feeling blizzard will treat it similar to retail, the existing servers will simply carry on to TBC.
The caveat will be they will also be launching fresh severs for Classic at the same time for those that want a fresh start or do not want to play TBC, you said this in your OP, I am just reiterating and agreeing with you.
My hope is prior to a TBC launch they will look at server balance and merge some of them to help imbalances. I don't think they will actually do this, but they should.

No, they won't force people to go to TBC, you would be foolish to think after all the work to get classic in the first place they would force those players who want to keep their classic progression. It just won't happen that is not how you treat customers.

[Mosha]

dude your condescending attitude is boring. you assume too much and know nothing.

I don't assume shit what I'm saying is true, you just don't want to admit it because you are defending the 'essence' of leveling for some weird reason even though anyone who plays this game realizes what leveling is now. Just people spamming trade/general "WTB CARRY THROUGH X DUNGEON PST"

[Heathy]

I don't assume shit what I'm saying is true, you just don't want to admit it because you are defending the 'essence' of leveling for some weird reason even though anyone who plays this game realizes what leveling is now. Just people spamming trade/general "WTB CARRY THROUGH X DUNGEON PST"

what you're saying is a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit to prove a point that is only yours. there is no argument that this is some sort of generalisation. even if there are ppl who boost their way to max this is far from EVERYONE. not EVERYONE is making boost groups and AOE'ing down instances, every single instance run i've done has been a normal group, 1 tank, 1 heal 3 rando dps. and we've pulled individual packs and just run dungeons the regular way. you're trying to tell me that because you're seeing 'zg boost run 20g per clear' that everyone is jumping on that bandwagon? no, thats like saying everyone who sees a gold seller buys gold, just because it was written in the chat.

you're taking one niche thing (boost groups) and assuming that this is how it is for everyone. but its not the case at all. there are plenty of folks still going through this the regular boring less wipey less expensive way. i'm not paying for boosts when I can just level a char myself doing quests and running dungeons at appropriate level ranges.

[Mosha]

what you're saying is a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit to prove a point that is only yours. there is no argument that this is some sort of generalisation. even if there are ppl who boost their way to max this is far from EVERYONE.

My point isn't even that it is everyone, and it isn't unsubstantiated, it's common sense unless you live under a rock while you are playing the game.

My point is that leveling is pointless today, and things like boosts really highlight why.

There is absolutely no reason to force someone to level 1-58 at least on their first character in order to play tbc is we are releasing classic tbc. I'm not saying this 100% needs to be the thing where we all have free 58's. But what I'm saying is that there is zero reason to be against the free 58.

Leveling doesn't make you 'learn' your class ffs. An overwhelming majority of players understand how to play this game. Level 58 is a perfect place to start to 'learn' your character. Also, forcing someone into a world that is dead or maybe a better word to use is barren for months in order to catch up to their friends to jump into this 'new' version of classic is just silly at this point. It isn't in the best interest to someone who just wants tbc, it isn't in the best interest of Blizzard themselves as there are a TON of people who are probably going to quit because they don't like the azeroth leveling, and honestly I don't even think it's in the best interest for classic players right now.

Idc if you just think leveling is a vital part of the experience and you just think people should level, I get that argument and you can just say that and we can agree to disagree. Don't fucking sit here and spread BS like "ITS FAR FROM DEAD GUYS YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKIN ABOUT" and just say whatever it is to disagree with what I said just because you don't like it.

[Heathy]

again force force force, you aren't forced to play the game in the first place, the problem with your argument is that you assume that this is some hardship that you are forced to do at some significant drawback to you. but this is part of the game, in some cases I would say that it is arbitrary. no its no less arbitary than any other part of the game.

i'd like a game like wow with no raid lockouts so i can just farm raids over and over and never get saved to them, also get rid of BoP and let there be a more dynamic economy with more interesting things you can grind and buy/sell. tier sets, mounts etc. but no the game is the way it is. we can pick the game apart all day for seemingly arbitrary aspects that don't serve any other purpose than a deliberate time sync but i would argue that playing a character through the levelling period is 1) a point of the game where you meet other ppl you play with long term, and 2) you do learn how to play a class you haven't played before and its nuances.

is it entirely arbitrary. because I would say its integral to there being any vested interest in a character.

[Mosha]

again force force force, you aren't forced to play the game in the first place, the problem with your argument is that you assume that this is some hardship that you are forced to do at some significant drawback to you. but this is part of the game, in some cases I would say that it is arbitrary. no its no less arbitary than any other part of the game.

i'd like a game like wow with no raid lockouts so i can just farm raids over and over and never get saved to them, also get rid of BoP and let there be a more dynamic economy with more interesting things you can grind and buy/sell. tier sets, mounts etc. but no the game is the way it is.

Yes, you are forced forced forced forced to do it, dude. Listen to me very very closely. I will try to really dumb this down for you.

Some people like tbc, hate vanilla.

TBC good, vanilla bad.

If they want to play the version of wow they like, they are going to be FORCED FORCED FORCED to play vanilla. There is more than one definition of the word forced, I suggest you look some up so you can understand that word can be used as definition for 'prerequisite' or 'done because of necessity'.

i'd like a game like wow with no raid lockouts so i can just farm raids over and over and never get saved to them, also get rid of BoP and let there be a more dynamic economy with more interesting things you can grind and buy/sell. tier sets, mounts etc. but no the game is the way it is.

Well you see the difference here sally, is that what you're wanting isn't something blizzard put on the table. They straight up sent out a survey asking if this is something that we would want. You can argue for that stuff all you want idgaf, but it isn't even close to relevant to this conversation now is it.

If you are feeling like your position isn't a strong one, just leave the post instead of acting like a moron and talking nonsense. Thanks.

[Heathy]

ITS PART OF THE GAME LEVELLING IS PART OF THE GAME HOW DENSE ARE YOU? like a new fucking element up in here.

did we get free 58s the first time around? there is the answer to your question. and all of your patronising fucking bullshit. the end.

hey lets take it even further, for wrath, we did get levelled DKs, but only DKs.

how is what I want any different to what you want, you want something that didn't exist, I want something that didn't exist, who's the moron exactly? I would say it was you seeing as you seem oblivious to what your saying and you seem to think the world revolves around you and what you want. entitled, patronising and arrogant. the trifecta.

[Mosha]

ITS PART OF THE GAME LEVELLING IS PART OF THE GAME HOW DENSE ARE YOU?

And? Herbalism is part of the game doesn't mean I do it. Blizzard sent out a survey asking us if it's something we wanted, so it's clear they are open to making this a reality so idk what you're on about dude.

did we get free 58s the first time around? there is the answer to your question. and all of your patronising fucking bullshit. the end.

Did we have layering back then? Thats your answer. Did we start with 1.12 talents back then? That's your answer. Do you need me to go on or do you think you understand?

Blizzard made it very clear that this was something they were at the very least considering, whether you like it or not so your opinion on 'well we didn't have it back...' is irrelevant. Period.

hey lets take it even further, for wrath, we did get levelled DKs, but only DKs.

Um ok I'm glad you remember that I guess? Lol what does this have to do with anything.

[Heathy]

moved onto strawmen now have we great.

everyone has to level, not everyone has to do a profession. comparing an optional part of the game to a mandatory part of the game. this was fun but i've said all i can say, this is now circular.

you have to level whether you want to or not.

[Mosha]

moved onto strawmen now have we great.

everyone has to level, not everyone has to do a profession. comparing an optional part of the game to a mandatory part of the game. this was fun but i've said all i can say, this is now circular.

Yes and you don't have to participate in the leveling experience if you do not want to. I can pay someone gold to literally have me sit in a dungeon for an hour run out and run back in and repeat that until I'm 60.

That is why leveling is absurd. You don't have to do a damn thing and most people don't anymore because of how silly it is. Hence why I think there's no reason to be against the 58 characters.

You know you aren't even really saying anything to defend your point anymore you are just saying random shit everyone knows, but you aren't connecting it to your point. Can you please remind me why the level 58 option is bad again?

[Heathy]

can you remind me why its good?

[BSwitch]

In 2.4.3, Horde had racial advantage.
2.3.0 brought with it a number of changes to alliance racials.
Fear Ward from ( 30s CD for Dwarf/Draenie ) -> ( 180s CD for ALL priests )
Escape Artist from ( 60s CD) -> (105s CD )
Blind no longer considered a poison (Stoneform can't remove)
Dwarves held up the Alliance on their shoulders, but if Blizzard is going to use 2.4.3 as a template, anyone with forethought (who doesn't care about looks/lore) will decide Horde is better for PvP overall. On PvE servers, the problem won't really be noticeable, but as most people choose PvP servers, most people will go horde.

Another big issue is how they're going to handle those that didn't play Classic, but now want to play TBC.
Having the option to play on a fresh server is absolutely essential for those people, along with the many who just want a clean slate. If private servers are any indication, it's that people really like that fresh feeling, no matter how many times they've had to restart. Like having a nice cozy shower after a hard day at work.

I say option here, because of course they're not going to eliminate all the hard work of those that have played Classic since its inception. They should be rewarded for their efforts with easy leveling in T3 gear, along with keeping their character names etc. Anyone with the stamina and resilience to level a Draenei/Blood Elf in the pre-patch, deserves every advantage.
Capping gold might be a good idea, along with only allowing you to keep essential BoP items, perhaps there are essential non-BoP items as well that I don't know about.

There are problaby a lot of other issues (please mention them), but these seem like the most important to me.

There's lots here that I hadn't even considered. Racial changes weren't on my radar at all.

First, imo the ONLY feasible way of doing TBC is by allowing account copies to Classic-only servers (so you can continue to stick in Vanilla if you wish), and to force the existing servers to progress. Most of what I've seen indicates that a majority of people DO want to go forward into TBC. If you allow copies to Classic-locked servers, those Vanilla purists will be able to remain in that ecosystem. That's good. It does mean they'd have potentially fractured server communities and may have to find new Classic-locked people to play with, but that's far less impactful than shattering the existing server communities by having us copy onto new TBC servers. Plain progression means we maintain populations, guilds, economy, all the good and the bad of what we've built in Classic. This seems to be good.

Fresh servers could be cool, but I'm not convinced they're necessarily the way to go for Classic at this time. We had launch barely over a year ago - I know pservs are a different fish, but starting with a clean slate (unless there is zero copying to a Classic server) seems like it'd be a rough decision to make. Though, I will say, I have so much nostalgia for Classic launch. It was an amazing time to play.

For me, the big thing is Seal of Blood/Vengeance. IMO, both should be available to each side. This isn't a balance issue, since no spells are being added - Paladins have these spells, and the only separation is which faction you're with. It's not like giving Classic Paladins a taunt, or giving other new spells to classes where the spells didn't exist - these spells exist, and are available to players. Allowing this to span factions will help so much with the imbalance of factions from TBC forward. I'm Alliance, and I expect our guild would stay as such. Unless mistaken, though, this is the single, only time when a class doesn't have access to a core spell dependent on their faction. Priest racials are somewhat similar, but A) racials are not core spells, and B) each faction has an available option for a more or less optimal ability depending on content. This Paladin seal is a different story than Priests. Even the Shaman A/H divide doesn't really exist. Same spells with different names, that's it. For me, this is the one big change I'm hoping they address.

[Mosha]

can you remind me why its good?

Sure, there are a ton of people who played tbc and want to come back or people who want to try out tbc for the first time who aren't playing/didn't play classic. I know a lot of them personally.

They do not want to level 1-58 for weeks/months in order to get to the part of the game they want to test out. Christ for a lot of people they might only be planning on staying for a couple weeks anyway just to remember what it was like, if they are forced to level 1-58 when they 100% do not want to then they just aren't going to play.

This isn't good for blizzard in terms of money, it's obviously not good for newer players who want to get into tbc asap, and it could also be harmful if populations for tbc don't start off with a big boom.

Imagine classic numbers at the start and what they are now, if you don't have a large insurgence of players, this number could get even smaller and merges would be necessary quicker than normal.

It doesn't effect anyone outside of newbies just catching up, that's all they are doing. The newbies aren't passing you, they aren't even at a remotely close place than you with your epic mounts and full t3 (at that point). But it will just put them at a place where they don't have to spend weeks leveling to 'play' the game they want.

As long as it's a one time per account, don't any gold tied to the 'new' player (or at the least very little) I can't see this even remotely being an issue. Unless you are on a side where you literally just think people should waste weeks and months of their time leveling just because you think they should.

[Heathy]

ofc its good for blizzard because if they FORCE your friends to level (as opposed to your friends choosing to do something that doesn't insinuate they were under duress when they made that choice and ofc it was something they wanted to do in the first place meaning they weren't forced into anything they didn't already want to do) then thats an extra month subscription for them. you taking a month to level is a month of subscription time, we can get into the whys and why nots of levelling and whether it should be a part of mmo gaming the whole philosophy of why X or Y is this way, but if you don't want to level chars why play mmos.

in the end I don't really care whether or not they do premade characters I just think they won't because they didn't the first time. i never got a free 58. I put the effort into my characters and levelled them all the way. I didn't need any handouts but then I didn't expect or feel entitled to them either. I see the game as a time waster but its also a journey, and experience. I don't think that just because I dislike a part of the game I get to dictate how it should be just because I don't like it. if you don't like it, don't play it. its really fucking simple, this game obviously isn't for you if you're only interested in a part of it and only if you're given what you want.. good luck with that..

'I really want to play this game but ill only play it if *insert list of demands here*'

this is when you just go create your own game, because the chances of the game bending over for you is unlikely.

They do not want to level 1-58 for weeks/months

I can pay someone gold to literally have me sit in a dungeon for an hour run out and run back in and repeat that until I'm 60.

its also 1 or the other, either you have friends that take months to level, or you have no friends and buy boosts. the story needs consistency. maybe take these imaginary friends and level up in less than a month instead of making them level while you buy boosts. or be a friend and buy them a boost.