How can the blood elves be okay with the San'layn and not the void elves?

[Combatbutler]

Mass murder is almost always markedly effective at removing a leader's troubles, that doesn't make it good leadership, or meritorious by any means.

Depends entirely on the circumstances, in this case it would defend the vast majority of the people, would force them to come to terms with their choice and most likely abandon it, thus simply rejoining the fold and those who were so fanatic they would willingly endanger themselves and their people, because they refused to drain mana bearing vermin are prime candidates for a darwin award.

The High Elves were part of the nation he was empowered to protect - killing (or exiling) them because it was expedient is not good leadership no matter how you attempt to spin it.

If it means the nation and its people survive, yes it is.

Except he didn't make a hard decision, he made an easy and shortsighted one - something he admits to himself later on. The hard decision would've been mediating with the High Elven dissidents, hearing their concerns, and at least attempting to reach some kind of compromise. In light of the fact that the High Elves basically overcame their Arcane addiction in time doesn't help the argument that Lor'themar ultimately did the right thing.

Hard on ones conscience, like many of these are, he could have made such a risky decision and as such endangering every last person in Quel'thalas, or take the safe route.

Except for the fact that they were successful, granted access to potent new abilities, and now serve the Alliance as weapons against Silvermoon and the Horde.

They were successful in turning themselves into eldritch abominations on the brink of self destruction and utter madness, that should all be killed for everyone's safety.

The exile of the High Elves changes nothing of that scenario, though; as they were exiled they couldn't serve in Silvermoon's defense as it was.

Which is why I said he was too lenient

I don't think so, and neither does Lor'themar ultimately (in the case of the High Elves at least).

He offers the olive branch, once the kingdom is no longer on the brink of destruction and yes he does, which why he said he couldn't lead a nation divided back then

[Aucald]

Depends entirely on the circumstances, in this case it would defend the vast majority of the people, would force them to come to terms with their choice and most likely abandon it, thus simply rejoining the fold and those who were so fanatic they would willingly endanger themselves and their people, because they refused to drain mana bearing vermin are prime candidates for a darwin award.

Except they didn't really endanger anyone - they overcame the addiction, even though it took time and effort, they did through will what the Blood Elves relied on mana tapping to work around. The presupposed immediacy of this "danger" is something I strongly disagree with, as it's not borne out by the facts of the High Elves fate later on. The High Elves could've helped protect and aid Silvermoon as well, even if their effectiveness might've been slightly blunted - it would've been better to have them as a resource as opposed to exiling them and not having them at all.

If it means the nation and its people itself survive, yes it is.

They would've survived either way, so that's a moot point.

Hard on ones conscience, like many of these are, he could have made such a risky decision and as such endangering every last person in Quel'thalas, or take the safe route.

Given that the risk and danger here are being grossly overestimated, not so much. He took a safe and expedient decision that he ultimately came to regret.

They were successful in turning themselves into eldritch abominations on the brink of self destruction and utter madness, that should all be killed for everyone's safety.

They seem to be relatively sane and stable insofar as that goes. Sure, a few of them have gone south, but then so have many Blood Elves (e.g. Kael'thas himself).

He offers the olive branch, once the kingdom is no longer on the brink of destruction and yes he does, which why he said he couldn't lead a nation divided back then

Except he knows he was wrong, thus the regret and second-guessing of his own actions.

[Combatbutler]

Except they didn't really endanger anyone - they overcame the addiction, even though it took time and effort, they did through will what the Blood Elves relied on mana tapping to work around. The presupposed immediacy of this "danger" is something I strongly disagree with, as it's not borne out by the facts of the High Elves fate later on. The High Elves could've helped protect and aid Silvermoon as well, even if their effectiveness might've been slightly blunted - it would've been better to have them as a resource as opposed to exiling them and not having them at all.

Yeah as I said use them as meatshields, until they learn their lesson, but ultimately they were dividing the nation at a time it was absolutely not possible to squabble and yet here these selfish idiots were, unwilling to drain mana from vermin, because they found it distasteful, thus not operating at 100% even risking permanent damage, while people needed to pull their weight.

They would've survived either way, so that's a moot point.

How do you know that? If the high elves kept pushing for the repeal of Rommath's teaching the whole kingdom could have collapsed, the magisters were the sole reason the elves were in a position to fight back to begin with. Without them Quel'thalas would have remained scourge controlled.

Given that the risk and danger here are being grossly overestimated, not so much. He took a safe and expedient decision that he ultimately came to regret.

Because he hated doing it, yet seeing it as a necessity and as we can see he saw himself as justified enough to do it again.

They seem to be relatively sane and stable insofar as that goes. Sure, a few of them have gone south, but then so have many Blood Elves (e.g. Kael'thas himself).

Many of their npcs are half mad and their whispers are worse than what demon hunters experience and those have a lofty fail rate of 80%

Except he knows he was wrong, thus the regret and second-guessing of his own actions.

He acknowledges it as morally wrong, not that the decision itself was wrong.

[Aucald]

Yeah as I said use them as meatshields, until they learn their lesson, but ultimately they were dividing the nation at a time it was absolutely not possible to squabble and yet here these selfish idiots were, unwilling to drain mana from vermin, because they found it distasteful, thus not operating at 100% even risking permanent damage, while people needed to pull their weight.

Again, their exile ensured each High Elves weight was effectively 0%, so any contribution they made would've been better than the result of losing their number entirely.

How do you know that? If the high elves kept pushing for the repeal of Rommath's teaching the whole kingdom could have collapsed, the magisters were the sole reason the elves were in a position to fight back to begin with. Without them Quel'thalas would have remained scourge controlled.

A repeal of Rommath's teaching wouldn't be a compromise, either; it would be the High Elves getting their way completely. A compromise would be like allowing the High Elves to sequester themselves to overcome the addiction through other methods (as we know can be done now), while the Magisters, Blood Knights, and Farstriders continued the use of mana-tapping to combat the immediate symptoms of addiction. Those High Elves who were hale and hearty enough to do so while serving in any group could continue doing so, as well.

Because he hated doing it, yet seeing it as a necessity and as we can see he saw himself as justified enough to do it again.

Belied by the fact that is was neither a necessity, nor in his view actually justified.

Many of their npcs are half mad and their whispers are worse than what demon hunters experience and those have a lofty fail rate of 80%

Not sure how you arrived at either figure. We've seen perhaps a handful of Void Elves lose their grip, and nowhere near enough to achieve that weirdly arbitrary figure of 80%.

He acknowledges it as morally wrong, not that the decision itself was wrong.

A distinction without a difference. He was wrong, he recognizes it and regrets it - you can't really get more clear than that.

[Combatbutler]

Again, their exile ensured each High Elves weight was effectively 0%, so any contribution they made would've been better than the result of losing their number entirely.

They were no longer a drain on the resources of the kingdom either and a possible civil unrest was averted.

A repeal of Rommath's teaching wouldn't be a compromise, either; it would be the High Elves getting their way completely. A compromise would be like allowing the High Elves to sequester themselves to overcome the addiction through other methods (as we know can be done now), while the Magisters, Blood Knights, and Farstriders continued the use of mana-tapping to combat the immediate symptoms of addiction. Those High Elves who were hale and hearty enough to do so while serving in any group could continue doing so, as well.

Why the hell would you sequester them? With the whole kingdom on fire? You are making another mistake here the high elves never overcame their addiction, only a few of them did and among those were people who suffered permanent physical and mental damage.

Belied by the fact that is was neither a necessity, nor in his view actually justified.

I disagree you might see it differently, but exiling these utterly selfish leeches was one of the better options.

Not sure how you arrived at either figure. We've seen perhaps a handful of Void Elves lose their grip, and nowhere near enough to achieve that weirdly arbitrary figure of 80%

.

The 80% is from the demon hunters, who are not as mentally assaulted as the void elves who hear thousands of whispers and the universal rule prior to Alleria was a whooping 100%, the void elves are walking time bombs, they simply cannot be trusted.

A distinction without a difference. He was wrong, he recognizes it and regrets it - you can't really get more clear than that.

Sure......... which is why he did it yet again. He acknowledges that some of his decision were indefensible and still necessary.

[Aucald]

They were no longer a drain on the resources of the kingdom either and a possible civil unrest was averted.

A drain on what resources - and a possibility of civil unrest that was never tested, nor guaranteed.

Why the hell would you sequester them? With the whole kingdom on fire? You are making another mistake here the high elves never overcame their addiction, only a few of them did and among those were people who suffered permanent physical and mental damage.

Why wouldn't you sequester them? Give them a place to congregate where they can do whatever they like while the bulk of the Blood Elves go about the tasks of restoration and rebuilding. The exile of the High Elves happened after Silvermoon had been largely restored, after Kael'thas had departed for Outland. It wasn't in the midst of the Third War or in the days immediately following it.

The High Elves are still around, going to show that they found a way to overcome the addiction without reliance on Rommath's teaching. Either consuming energy from magical artifacts or simply willing themselves through the worst of the addiction - they survived and even thrived. They could've done so without having to be exiled.

I disagree you might see it differently, but exiling these utterly selfish leeches was one of the better options.

How exactly were they "leeches?" If anything, the Blood Elves are the true leeches in this equation, literally leeching Arcane energies from the wildlife of Quel'Thalas. You're assuming that the High Elves could not contribute anything to Quel'Thalas, but that's not borne out by the facts of the matter. They might not have been operating to the same degree as the Blood Elves due to combating the addiction, but that doesn't imply they would be a total drain on Silvermoon's economy either. Mana tapping was itself only a palliative for the condition, and it had it also had a pronounced downside: producing Wretched Elves who were actually an active danger to Silvermoon's populace.

The 80% is from the demon hunters, who are not as mentally assaulted as the void elves who hear thousands of whispers and the universal rule prior to Alleria was a whooping 100%, the void elves are walking time bombs, they simply cannot be trusted.

Demon Hunters are not Void Elves, and not a good basis of comparison. We also know very little about prior adherents of the Void, but we know enough to put the 100% figure to bed. Natalie Seline didn't fall to Void corruption, and she was both a user of Xal'atath as well as an avid explorer of Void magic. Plenty of heroic Shadow Priests and Warlocks also use Void magic without falling to corruption.

Sure......... which is why he did it yet again. He acknowledges that some of his decision were indefensible and still necessary.

That he did it again is part of the cornerstone showing he's a hypocrite who keeps making enemies for Quel'Thalas as soon as he's confronted with internal dissent. One can't really win by losing. He acknowledged the first time was a mistaken on his part, yet he failed to learn from that mistake and so basically did the same thing again, this time with even worse results for him and his people.

[Verdugo]

A drain on what resources - and a possibility of civil unrest that was never tested, nor guaranteed.



Why wouldn't you sequester them? Give them a place to congregate where they can do whatever they like while the bulk of the Blood Elves go about the tasks of restoration and rebuilding. The exile of the High Elves happened after Silvermoon had been largely restored, after Kael'thas had departed for Outland. It wasn't in the midst of the Third War or in the days immediately following it.

The High Elves are still around, going to show that they found a way to overcome the addiction without reliance on Rommath's teaching. Either consuming energy from magical artifacts or simply willing themselves through the worst of the addiction - they survived and even thrived. They could've done so without having to be exiled.



How exactly were they "leeches?" If anything, the Blood Elves are the true leeches in this equation, literally leeching Arcane energies from the wildlife of Quel'Thalas. You're assuming that the High Elves could not contribute anything to Quel'Thalas, but that's not borne out by the facts of the matter. They might not have been operating to the same degree as the Blood Elves due to combating the addiction, but that doesn't imply they would be a total drain on Silvermoon's economy either. Mana tapping was itself only a palliative for the condition, and it had it also had a pronounced downside: producing Wretched Elves who were actually an active danger to Silvermoon's populace.



Demon Hunters are not Void Elves, and not a good basis of comparison. We also know very little about prior adherents of the Void, but we know enough to put the 100% figure to bed. Natalie Seline didn't fall to Void corruption, and she was both a user of Xal'atath as well as an avid explorer of Void magic. Plenty of heroic Shadow Priests and Warlocks also use Void magic without falling to corruption.



That he did it again is part of the cornerstone showing he's a hypocrite who keeps making enemies for Quel'Thalas as soon as he's confronted with internal dissent. One can't really win by losing. He acknowledged the first time was a mistaken on his part, yet he failed to learn from that mistake and so basically did the same thing again, this time with even worse results for him and his people.

God forbid that someone has to make a hard choice, unlike your precious Anduin for whom the writers create a Golden path of barely any ressistance.

[Aucald]

God forbid that someone has to make a hard choice, unlike your precious Anduin for whom the writers create a Golden path of barely any ressistance.

What does Anduin have to do with anything being discussed here?

[Combatbutler]

A drain on what resources - and a possibility of civil unrest that was never tested, nor guaranteed.

Magical artifacts to sate their hunger for example, because they are too arrogant and selfish to drain from vermin.

Why wouldn't you sequester them? Give them a place to congregate where they can do whatever they like while the bulk of the Blood Elves go about the tasks of restoration and rebuilding.

Heck no ! That is precisely what I meant with a drain of resources, you put them to work.

The exile of the High Elves happened after Silvermoon had been largely restored, after Kael'thas had departed for Outland. It wasn't in the midst of the Third War or in the days immediately following it.

The kingdom was on the brink of collapsing up until the forsaken started to help them out, all of it was basically a giant house of cards, that could have collapsed at any moment.

The High Elves are still around, going to show that they found a way to overcome the addiction without reliance on Rommath's teaching. Either consuming energy from magical artifacts or simply willing themselves through the worst of the addiction - they survived and even thrived. They could've done so without having to be exiled.

No they did not, they didn't overcome shit they still needed resources to feed their hunger and these resources are a drain on the society as a whole, they basically a bunch of arrogant assholes, who refuse to eat insects and demand steak instead while their nation faces starvation.

How exactly were they "leeches?" If anything, the Blood Elves are the true leeches in this equation, literally leeching Arcane energies from the wildlife of Quel'Thalas. You're assuming that the High Elves could not contribute anything to Quel'Thalas, but that's not borne out by the facts of the matter. They might not have been operating to the same degree as the Blood Elves due to combating the addiction, but that doesn't imply they would be a total drain on Silvermoon's economy either.

Because they were unwilling to lower themselves to feed on mana bearing vermin and in their arrogance did not budge from that pathetic standpoint, due to their arrogance and pride, most of them later leeching off humans.

Mana tapping was itself only a palliative for the condition, and it had it also had a pronounced downside: producing Wretched Elves who were actually an active danger to Silvermoon's populace.

Sure the high elves of Quel'litihen sure were right and did not produce any wretched whatsoever.

Demon Hunters are not Void Elves, and not a good basis of comparison. We also know very little about prior adherents of the Void, but we know enough to put the 100% figure to bed. Natalie Seline didn't fall to Void corruption, and she was both a user of Xal'atath as well as an avid explorer of Void magic. Plenty of heroic Shadow Priests and Warlocks also use Void magic without falling to corruption.

Canon sources say otherwise, Alleria is stated to be the first mortal to not fall to the whispers, so Natalie Seline is corrupted end of story.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ba...s/allied-races

Many have sought to harness the corruptive magic of the Void. Most who tried have fallen into madness. Determined to use this power for the good of Azeroth, Alleria Windrunner is the first mortal to succeed at defying the shadow's whispers.

That he did it again is part of the cornerstone showing he's a hypocrite who keeps making enemies for Quel'Thalas as soon as he's confronted with internal dissent. One can't really win by losing. He acknowledged the first time was a mistaken on his part, yet he failed to learn from that mistake and so basically did the same thing again, this time with even worse results for him and his people.

Where the hell does he say that his decision in itself was wrong? And no the monsters aren't part of his society so it is a clear win, he might face them on the field of battle but at least these things don't dwell among his people.

[Verdugo]

What does Anduin have to do with anything being discussed here?

You obviously compare everything Lor'themar did to the Golden standart that Anduin set. Everything has to be done the moral way or its wrong. All those walls of text you made are just dishonest attempts to hide that fact.

[Aucald]

Magical artifacts to sate their hunger for example, because they are too arrogant and selfish to drain from vermin.

Silvermoon, like Dalaran, is probably drowning in magical artifacts with room to spare - somehow I doubt this would be an impossible draw on Silvermoon, just as it wasn't on Dalaran (which likewise had been destroyed in the Third War). It is also neither arrogant nor selfish to refuse to drain the life directly out of living beings.

Heck no ! That is precisely what I meant with a drain of resources, you put them to work.

They're not slaves to simply be "put to work," they were citizens of Quel'Thalas just like their Blood Elven peers. They also had no stated compunctions about carrying their weight.

The kingdom was on the brink of collapsing up until the forsaken started to help them out, all of it was basically a giant house of cards, that could have collapsed at any moment.

"Maybe," "could have," "possibly," and the litany of other possibilities that were again never even tested. Handled properly the High Elven contingent could've been a boon to Silvermoon - just like they were during the Zandalari crisis in TBC, and especially with Sylvanas having forced Lor'themar's hand to join her in Northrend.

No they did not, they didn't overcome shit they still needed resources to feed their hunger and these resources are a drain on the society as a whole, they basically a bunch of arrogant assholes, who refuse to eat insects and demand steak instead while their nation faces starvation.

Because they were unwilling to lower themselves to feed on mana bearing vermin and in their arrogance did not budge from that pathetic standpoint, due to their arrogance and pride, most of them later leeching off humans.

That's deeply overstating their plight as well as drawing up a number of completely subjective denouncements that betray a personal bias on your part. The High Elves never asked for additional resources or to "eat steak" as you colorfully put it - they just wanted Lor'themar to recognize their decision not to indulge in mana tapping. He refused due to his own worries about internal strife. They fact that arbitration of some kind was never even attempted goes to show that there were no terms as you imply above. We don't even know if the High Elven contingent would've asked for additional resources, because they never got the chance to even do so.

Canon sources say otherwise, Alleria is stated to be the first mortal to not fall to the whispers, so Natalie Seline is corrupted.

Natalie Seline was a champion of the Conclave and aided Azeroth against fighting the Legion - so if she's "corrupted," then corruption is a super low bar and nothing to actually worry about in the long term. You can take your narrative pick.

Where the hell does he say that his decision in itself was wrong? And no the monsters aren't part of his society so it is a clear win, he might face them on the field of battle but at least these things don't dwell among his people.

Lor'themar stood and turned to leave. They had caught him off guard, and the walls around him no longer held the assurance of solidity. He saw Aurora stand and stare him down, her chin high and defiant. Neither she nor Renthar spoke another word, and it seemed as if the sheer force of their hatred pushed him from the room.

He had no reason to fight them. He could, perhaps, offer his palms in penance, but they would only spit upon them, and in truth he could not find it in his heart to fault them. If he had held any hope of atonement before—and perhaps he had—the Plaguelands' desolation had smothered it, as it did all that lived and dreamed. These bridges had burned long ago, his own hand setting them to flame. (Source)

He seeks penance, and when the High Elves refuse to grant it he can't fault them for their actions, nor even find it in his heart to fault them for doing so. So yes, he admits he was wrong, and when trying to right that wrong as best he could he can't fault the High Elves for finding him contemptable.

And I said before, if Lor'themar had handled the Umbric situation differently there may not have even been Void Elves to begin with. We'll never know, now.

- - - Updated - - -

You obviously compare everything Lor'themar did to the Golden standart that Anduin set. Everything has to be done the moral way or its wrong. All those walls of text you made are just dishonest attempts to hide that fact.

No, at no point did I mention Golden, or Anduin - I'm talking about the High Elves, Blood Elves, Void Elves, and Lor'themar's errors in judgment. The only one who's made a bad faith comparison here is you, and I can only assume in an attempt to dishonestly detract from an argument you dislike. I even framed the loss of Umbric's people to the Alliance as a bad thing, further detracting from your spurious and incorrect argument.

[Verdugo]

No, at no point did I mention Golden, or Anduin - I'm talking about the High Elves, Blood Elves, Void Elves, and Lor'themar's errors in judgment. The only one who's made a bad faith comparison here is you, and I can only assume in an attempt to dishonestly detract from an argument you dislike. I even framed the loss of Umbric's people to the Alliance as a bad thing, further detracting from your spurious and incorrect argument.

You dont say it but you mean it. Admit it.

[Combatbutler]

Silvermoon, like Dalaran, is probably drowning in magical artifacts with room to spare - somehow I doubt this would be an impossible draw on Silvermoon, just as it wasn't on Dalaran (which likewise had been destroyed in the Third War). It is also neither arrogant nor selfish to refuse to drain the life directly out of living beings.

These artifacts, might be needed for something else, for defense etc. and yes it is arrogant and selfish if it inconveniences most of society.

They're not slaves to simply be "put to work," they were citizens of Quel'Thalas just like their Blood Elven peers. They also had no stated compunctions about carrying their weight.

Yes and they had to work too to ensure the kingdoms survival, choosing to be in top shape to do so, instead of handicapping themselves, out of idiocy.

"Maybe," "could have," "possibly," and the litany of other possibilities that were again never even tested. Handled properly the High Elven contingent could've been a boon to Silvermoon - just like they were during the Zandalari crisis in TBC, and especially with Sylvanas having forced Lor'themar's hand to join her in Northrend.

At the same time they could have been a giant detriment, possibly spreading their foolish ideas.

That's deeply overstating their plight as well as drawing up a number of completely subjective denouncements that betray a personal bias on your part. The High Elves never asked for additional resources or to "eat steak" as you colorfully put it - they just wanted Lor'themar to recognize their decision not to indulge in mana tapping. He refused due to his own worries about internal strife. They fact that arbitration of some kind was never even attempted goes to show that there were no terms as you imply above. We don't even know if the High Elven contingent would've asked for additional resources, because they never got the chance to even do so.

Their plight is a pathetic one and fully on themselves I can't see anyone who makes such a ridiculously stupid decision in any positive light, the fact that other dissenters were not exiled speaks for itself. To be perfectly honest High elves disgust me.

Natalie Seline was a champion of the Conclave and aided Azeroth against fighting the Legion - so if she's "corrupted," then corruption is a super low bar and nothing to actually worry about in the long term. You can take your narrative pick.

My narrative pick is Natalie is a walking timebomb, waiting to backstab people at a certain moment, like the usual void crazies, as current canon states.

Lor'themar stood and turned to leave. They had caught him off guard, and the walls around him no longer held the assurance of solidity. He saw Aurora stand and stare him down, her chin high and defiant. Neither she nor Renthar spoke another word, and it seemed as if the sheer force of their hatred pushed him from the room.

He had no reason to fight them. He could, perhaps, offer his palms in penance, but they would only spit upon them, and in truth he could not find it in his heart to fault them. If he had held any hope of atonement before—and perhaps he had—the Plaguelands' desolation had smothered it, as it did all that lived and dreamed. These bridges had burned long ago, his own hand setting them to flame. (Source)

He seeks penance, and when the High Elves refuse to grant it he can't fault them for their actions, nor even find it in his heart to fault them for doing so. So yes, he admits he was wrong, and when trying to right that wrong as best he could he can't fault the High Elves for finding him contemptable.

That does not mean he thinks his decision was wrong, heck he justified it a few paragraphs earlier while talking with Halduron, he just understands perfectly why they are pissed.



https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...rthemar-theron

I deal with the devil indeed, but the Sunwell may never have been restored had we not sunk to those levels. He and Aurora can sleep soundly, knowing they have never compromised their ethics, but if they deny that they prosper in the wake of those who have, then they delude themselves as much as I.


Here I find myself so close to believing that the ends justify the means. But the ruins of the Magisters' Terrace will haunt me forever, reminding me of the fate I tempt with that thought. This is the line I walk, finally knowing that the actions I take in necessity are nonetheless indefensible. Those truths can never be reconciled, but sometimes I can hold them both side by side and almost understand. I might call this revelation profound if I were ignorant enough not to realize that I am only learning what Kael'thas, and Anasterian before him, had also learned in their turns. All we can do is walk the road we are given with such dignity as we can muster, each to our own glory or demise, and pray that there yet remains something of our own hearts when all is said and done. By the Sunwell, I hope that there will remain something of mine.

And I said before, if Lor'themar had handled the Umbric situation differently there may not have even been Void Elves to begin with. We'll never know, now.

Anyone who seriously studies the void deserves a bullet through the head.

[Aucald]

You dont say it but you mean it. Admit it.

I'm not going to "admit" something patently untrue about myself, just to make you feel better about your own misgivings. You're simply wrong about the nature of my argument and you've sorely misjudged its nature. Simple as that.

[Verdugo]

I'm not going to "admit" something patently untrue about myself, just to make you feel better about your own misgivings. You're simply wrong about the nature of my argument and you've sorely misjudged its nature. Simple as that.

You keep trying to convince anyone about this, most people here already know the truth.

[Newname1234567890]

Willing Traitors Vs Former Scourge Enslaved Victims.....

I wonder what the difference is....

[Aucald]

These artifacts, might be needed for something else, for defense etc. and yes it is arrogant and selfish if it inconveniences most of society.

Which is yet more speculation on your part, and again, we have no idea if these would even be requested by the High Elves in their convalescence. They might have even sought them out on their own at no real cost to Silvermoon's stock. It's not possible to know one way or the other, so calling them "arrogant and selfish" over something that we don't know would have happened seems premature.

Yes and they had to work too to ensure the kingdoms survival, choosing to be in top shape to do so, instead of handicapping themselves, out of idiocy.

Who's to say they wouldn't have worked? They upkept the various lodges through the Eastern Kingdoms despite having no resources to draw on, so obviously they were able to make do with minimal resources. There's no implied handicap to speak of in that sense.

At the same time they could have been a giant detriment, possibly spreading their foolish ideas.

I see little in the way of detriment, and if their ideas became popular then what of it? The Sunwell has always been a singular point of failure for the High/Blood Elves - proven by the Third War and the devastating impact of its loss. I personally think it would be better for the High and Blood Elves to truly overcome their dependence on the Sunwell entirely.

Their plight is a pathetic one and fully on themselves I can't see anyone who makes such a ridiculously stupid decision in any positive light, the fact that other dissenters were not exiled speaks for itself. To be perfectly honest High elves disgust me.

I can't really say much beyond that that seems like a personal issue on your part, a subjective take that isn't really relevant to the political realities we're discussing.

My narrative pick is Natalie is a walking timebomb, waiting to backstab people at a certain moment, like the usual void crazies, as current canon states.

The current canon doesn't actually state that. The fact that the whispers exist doesn't mean every single Void Elf is doomed to madness - whereas Alleria might've been the first to truly resist, she's no longer alone in that regard; she now has an entire people that have done and are doing the same.

That does not mean he thinks his decision was wrong, heck he justified it a few paragraphs earlier while talking with Halduron, he just understands perfectly why they are pissed.

He justifies it to Halduron, an attempt to rationalize something he already admitted to himself was a mistake he wanted to atone for in the text. You can't really atone or seek penance for something you thought was right, after all. He does understand why they're pissed, though; he understands it is because of him and his failure as a leader, which is why he can neither blame nor rebuke them.

Anyone who seriously studies the void deserves a bullet through the head.

Again, that may be your personal takeaway, but I don't think it's widely shared.

I deal with the devil indeed, but the Sunwell may never have been restored had we not sunk to those levels. He and Aurora can sleep soundly, knowing they have never compromised their ethics, but if they deny that they prosper in the wake of those who have, then they delude themselves as much as I.

More justification and rationalization - he knows he screwed it up, but he tries to conflate that into doing what had to be done. But the Sunwell could've been restored without such steps, as nothing that actually led to its renewal had anything to do with the High Elves or their exile. It wasn't even his hands that restored it, after all; it was the Shattered Sun Offensive in conjunction with the adventurers who aided them, and more directly Velen handing over the spark of M'uru. I don't find much merit in his arguments, and while they might soothe his conscious they don't really address the wrongs done beforehand.

Here I find myself so close to believing that the ends justify the means. But the ruins of the Magisters' Terrace will haunt me forever, reminding me of the fate I tempt with that thought. This is the line I walk, finally knowing that the actions I take in necessity are nonetheless indefensible. Those truths can never be reconciled, but sometimes I can hold them both side by side and almost understand. I might call this revelation profound if I were ignorant enough not to realize that I am only learning what Kael'thas, and Anasterian before him, had also learned in their turns. All we can do is walk the road we are given with such dignity as we can muster, each to our own glory or demise, and pray that there yet remains something of our own hearts when all is said and done. By the Sunwell, I hope that there will remain something of mine.

A concession to the grim truth of his failures in that regard, not a stirring speech lionizing his efforts.

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You keep trying to convince anyone about this, most people here already know the truth.

"Most people" is a strange way to refer to yourself, as you're the only person making this argument. Lor'themar Theron is actually one of my favorite characters in WoW, and was long ago my pick to lead the Horde - but that doesn't mean I think he's perfect or hasn't made a number of mistakes.

[Combatbutler]

snip.

As entertaining as this was, lets just say we will never agree on this matter.

The current canon doesn't actually state that.

The current canon states that Alleria is the first mortal to ever withstand the whispers, so yes any mortal prior to Alleria is corrupted.

[Aucald]

The current canon states that Alleria is the first mortal to ever withstand the whispers, so yes anyone prior to Alleria is corrupted.

I'm referring to the canon as to whether hearing the whispers of the Void invariably leads to corruption. Alleria may well have been the first, but she's not alone now - and we've no idea if Alleria or the rest of the Void Elves are manifestly doomed. Although I also don't think Seline is corrupted, it may be that she's never been tested as thoroughly as Alleria, or perhaps she doesn't hear the whispers of the Void in her mind - difficult to say. Either way, I think the danger of the Void is definitely overstated.

[Rhlor]

Silvermoon, like Dalaran, is probably drowning in magical artifacts with room to spare - somehow I doubt this would be an impossible draw on Silvermoon, just as it wasn't on Dalaran (which likewise had been destroyed in the Third War). It is also neither arrogant nor selfish to refuse to drain the life directly out of living beings.



They're not slaves to simply be "put to work," they were citizens of Quel'Thalas just like their Blood Elven peers. They also had no stated compunctions about carrying their weight.



"Maybe," "could have," "possibly," and the litany of other possibilities that were again never even tested. Handled properly the High Elven contingent could've been a boon to Silvermoon - just like they were during the Zandalari crisis in TBC, and especially with Sylvanas having forced Lor'themar's hand to join her in Northrend.



That's deeply overstating their plight as well as drawing up a number of completely subjective denouncements that betray a personal bias on your part. The High Elves never asked for additional resources or to "eat steak" as you colorfully put it - they just wanted Lor'themar to recognize their decision not to indulge in mana tapping. He refused due to his own worries about internal strife. They fact that arbitration of some kind was never even attempted goes to show that there were no terms as you imply above. We don't even know if the High Elven contingent would've asked for additional resources, because they never got the chance to even do so.



Natalie Seline was a champion of the Conclave and aided Azeroth against fighting the Legion - so if she's "corrupted," then corruption is a super low bar and nothing to actually worry about in the long term. You can take your narrative pick.

Lor'themar stood and turned to leave. They had caught him off guard, and the walls around him no longer held the assurance of solidity. He saw Aurora stand and stare him down, her chin high and defiant. Neither she nor Renthar spoke another word, and it seemed as if the sheer force of their hatred pushed him from the room.

He had no reason to fight them. He could, perhaps, offer his palms in penance, but they would only spit upon them, and in truth he could not find it in his heart to fault them. If he had held any hope of atonement before—and perhaps he had—the Plaguelands' desolation had smothered it, as it did all that lived and dreamed. These bridges had burned long ago, his own hand setting them to flame. (Source)

He seeks penance, and when the High Elves refuse to grant it he can't fault them for their actions, nor even find it in his heart to fault them for doing so. So yes, he admits he was wrong, and when trying to right that wrong as best he could he can't fault the High Elves for finding him contemptable.

And I said before, if Lor'themar had handled the Umbric situation differently there may not have even been Void Elves to begin with. We'll never know, now.

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No, at no point did I mention Golden, or Anduin - I'm talking about the High Elves, Blood Elves, Void Elves, and Lor'themar's errors in judgment. The only one who's made a bad faith comparison here is you, and I can only assume in an attempt to dishonestly detract from an argument you dislike. I even framed the loss of Umbric's people to the Alliance as a bad thing, further detracting from your spurious and incorrect argument.

That group was the dumbest ever. They are offered help, they refuse and instead use a corrupt source that destroys them.

lorthemar did well, anyone who endangers the sunwell is a traitor