How can the blood elves be okay with the San'layn and not the void elves?

[Combatbutler]

I'm referring to the canon as to whether hearing the whispers of the Void invariably leads to corruption. Alleria may well have been the first, but she's not alone now - and we've no idea if Alleria or the rest of the Void Elves are manifestly doomed. Although I also don't think Seline is corrupted, it may be that she's never been tested as thoroughly as Alleria, or perhaps she doesn't hear the whispers of the Void in her mind - difficult to say. Either way, I think the danger of the Void is definitely overstated.

Alleria herself is convinced she will fall to its corruption and the sole reason she did not was her son. Their grasp on reality is fickle at best, the risk of the void far outweighs the benefits. It is so far the only cosmic power, mortals should under no circumstances mess with.

[Aucald]

That group was the dumbest ever. They are offered help, they refuse and instead use a corrupt source that destroys them.

lorthemar did well, anyone who endangers the sunwell is a traitor

They're pretty far from destroyed, and the Blood Elves should know all about using magic from a corrupted source the can destroy them given their usage of Fel magic. The underlying point, really; the Blood Elves had prior knowledge of how to deal with Umbric and his Void disciples, but didn't learn from or use any of that knowledge on a diplomatic level.

I highly doubt Umbric or his disciples *wanted* to endanger the Sunwell, and with the right precautions wouldn't have done so willingly. A far cry from the current state of affairs.

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Alleria herself is convinced she will fall to its corruption and the sole reason she did not was her son. Their grasp on reality is fickle at best, the risk of the void far outweighs the benefits. It is so far the only cosmic power, mortals should under no circumstances mess with.

She's done well thus far, and she may have been doing so for hundreds of years relative to her own timeline in the Nether. People say similar things about Fel magic, after all; but there are plenty of good-aligned Warlocks who buck the trend, not to mention the Demon Hunters who were instrumental in safeguarding Azeroth from the Legion.

[Combatbutler]

She's done well thus far, and she may have been doing so for hundreds of years relative to her own timeline in the Nether. People say similar things about Fel magic, after all; but there are plenty of good-aligned Warlocks who buck the trend, not to mention the Demon Hunters who were instrumental in safeguarding Azeroth from the Legion.

Whether she does well for 100 years or a Thousand does not matter if she falls she could do untold damage due to the "trust" she build, not to mention blizz is increasing their hints that she is starting to fall.

fel and void are hardly comparable, fel is corrupting power on its own, void is corrupting power, thousands of voices and visions in your head 24/7 for the rest of your life.

[Rhlor]

They're pretty far from destroyed, and the Blood Elves should know all about using magic from a corrupted source the can destroy them given their usage of Fel magic. The underlying point, really; the Blood Elves had prior knowledge of how to deal with Umbric and his Void disciples, but didn't learn from or use any of that knowledge on a diplomatic level.

I highly doubt Umbric or his disciples *wanted* to endanger the Sunwell, and with the right precautions wouldn't have done so willingly. A far cry from the current state of affairs.

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She's done well thus far, and she may have been doing so for hundreds of years relative to her own timeline in the Nether. People say similar things about Fel magic, after all; but there are plenty of good-aligned Warlocks who buck the trend, not to mention the Demon Hunters who were instrumental in safeguarding Azeroth from the Legion.

They are destroyed they are no longer elves, they are monsters and we have the quest to kill them.

About void elves, do you know what manslaughter is? What if they opened a portal that brought void monsters to silvermoon and killed hundreds of people?

You may not have the intention of doing something bad but doing something dangerous like being drunk and running over people is a crime even if your intention was not to kill those people.

[Aucald]

They are destroyed they are no longer elves, they are monsters and we have the quest to kill them.

About void elves, do you know what manslaughter is? What if they opened a portal that brought void monsters to silvermoon and killed hundreds of people?

You may not have the intention of doing something bad but doing something dangerous like being drunk and running over people is a crime even if your intention was not to kill those people.

"Elf" is a pretty plastic identity in terms of the Warcraft universe - if the Nightborne are still Elves despite being saturated and altered by the Nightwell, then the Void Elves are still Elves despite being altered by the Void. Otherwise you're just drawing entirely arbitrary lines in the sand. The Night Elves might feel similarly about the High Elves, as well; but that doesn't make them right.

Intent is always a factor when someone is adjudicating something like manslaughter. Someone who gets drunk and then behind the wheel of a vehicle takes a degree of blame upon themselves for not being cautious before becoming inebriated, even if it isn't the same as willfully running over people while sober or such. But in point of fact, we really don't know to what degree the Void is a threat to the Sunwell, and what (if anything) would happen if a Void Elf were to happen upon it. Alleria isn't the same thing as your standard Void Elf, after all; having consumed both the essence of a greater Void entity along with the remnant of a darkened Naaru - so her effect upon the Sunwell may have been unique (or even possibly engineered by Durzaan).

[Rhlor]

"Elf" is a pretty plastic identity in terms of the Warcraft universe - if the Nightborne are still Elves despite being saturated and altered by the Nightwell, then the Void Elves are still Elves despite being altered by the Void. Otherwise you're just drawing entirely arbitrary lines in the sand. The Night Elves might feel similarly about the High Elves, as well; but that doesn't make them right.

Intent is always a factor when someone is adjudicating something like manslaughter. Someone who gets drunk and then behind the wheel of a vehicle takes a degree of blame upon themselves for not being cautious before becoming inebriated, even if it isn't the same as willfully running over people while sober or such. But in point of fact, we really don't know to what degree the Void is a threat to the Sunwell, and what (if anything) would happen if a Void Elf were to happen upon it. Alleria isn't the same thing as your standard Void Elf, after all; having consumed both the essence of a greater Void entity along with the remnant of a darkened Naaru - so her effect upon the Sunwell may have been unique (or even possibly engineered by Durzaan).

the wretched who refused lorthemar's help are not elves they are monsters like the naga are not elves. Do you think Lor'themar expelled them without giving them the opportunity to stop using the void? they didn't want to stop using the void so they were a danger.
what would have been better for you? that we have a quest where void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of sunwell to know that playing with void is bad? I prefer what we saw thanks.

[Vaedan]

the wretched who refused lorthemar's help are not elves they are monsters like the naga are not elves. Do you think Lor'themar expelled them without giving them the opportunity to stop using the void? they didn't want to stop using the void so they were a danger.
what would have been better for you? that we have a quest where void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of sunwell to know that playing with void is bad? I prefer what we saw thanks.

In that case, Lor'themar should push other Horde leaders to exile all shadow priests, Forsaken cult of Forgotten Shadows and Shadowmoon Clan from the Horde, alongside some troll Witch doctors, since all these groups use Void and as part of the Horde, they are allowed to hang around any parts of Quel'thalas at any time they please. Since you are consistently saying being in Silvermoon is threat to Sunwell if you use Void, all these groups are potential danger.

[Aucald]

the wretched who refused lorthemar's help are not elves they are monsters like the naga are not elves. Do you think Lor'themar expelled them without giving them the opportunity to stop using the void? they didn't want to stop using the void so they were a danger.
what would have been better for you? that we have a quest where void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of sunwell to know that playing with void is bad? I prefer what we saw thanks.

The Wretched aren't people who refused Lor'themar's help - they're largely Blood Elves overindulged in various mana sources and as a result were mutated. I think both Rommath and Lor'themar overreacted to a possible threat to the Sunwell and never bothered with diplomacy, and I think it's also likely that Rommath felt threatened personally by Umbric's possible successful leveraging of the Void and what that could entail.

I'm not sold on the certainty that we'd see "Void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of Sunwell," either. As I said previously, the Void power that Alleria brought with her was nothing like what the Void Elves now are or the powers that Umbric was exploring. Using Alleria as the gauge for what Umbric might've done to the Sunwell is wrongheaded in my view - it's possible, but its equally possible that nothing would happen. Blood Elves use Void magic already as it is (Shadow Priests, Warlocks summoning Voidwalkers, etc. etc.), so the simple presence of Void-aligned magic or associated relics isn't itself a bridge too far, would seem.

[Rhlor]

The Wretched aren't people who refused Lor'themar's help - they're largely Blood Elves overindulged in various mana sources and as a result were mutated. I think both Rommath and Lor'themar overreacted to a possible threat to the Sunwell and never bothered with diplomacy, and I think it's also likely that Rommath felt threatened personally by Umbric's possible successful leveraging of the Void and what that could entail.

I'm not sold on the certainty that we'd see "Void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of Sunwell," either. As I said previously, the Void power that Alleria brought with her was nothing like what the Void Elves now are or the powers that Umbric was exploring. Using Alleria as the gauge for what Umbric might've done to the Sunwell is wrongheaded in my view - it's possible, but its equally possible that nothing would happen. Blood Elves use Void magic already as it is (Shadow Priests, Warlocks summoning Voidwalkers, etc. etc.), so the simple presence of Void-aligned magic or associated relics isn't itself a bridge too far, would seem.

the elves of QuelLithein were offered help they rejected it now they are monsters.

They made a decision to study the magic of darkhan and the void, it was dangerous for the sunwell personally with what we saw with alleria is enough for me, if you would have liked to see death and devastation all over Quelthalas I suppose that is your preference , I prefer this.

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In that case, Lor'themar should push other Horde leaders to exile all shadow priests, Forsaken cult of Forgotten Shadows and Shadowmoon Clan from the Horde, alongside some troll Witch doctors, since all these groups use Void and as part of the Horde, they are allowed to hang around any parts of Quel'thalas at any time they please. Since you are consistently saying being in Silvermoon is threat to Sunwell if you use Void, all these groups are potential danger.

do you think the blood elves would allow anyone to enter the sunwell?

quelthalas as sovereign state took a measure to protect the sunwell

[Aucald]

the elves of QuelLithein were offered help they rejected it now they are monsters.

The Elves of Quel'Lithien were a minority of the Elves who became Wretched, as is easily seen by the numbers of Wretched who inhabit the Ruins of Silvermoon and its outlying areas such as the Falthrien Academy.

They made a decision to study the magic of darkhan and the void, it was dangerous for the sunwell personally with what we saw with alleria is enough for me, if you would have liked to see death and devastation all over Quelthalas I suppose that is your preference , I prefer this.

As I said previously, I don't think this logic necessarily follows - so I don't agree that Umbric was an immediate threat to the Sunwell. I'm not completely convinced Alleria is, either; as I think there's a very real possibility she was set-up by Nether-Prince Durzaan.

[Varodoc]

The irony here is that there is a clear parallel between the Ren'dorei led by Magister Umbric and the Quel'dorei of old led by Dath'remar. Both were exiled by the government because their ominous powers were deemed too dangerous for society. Both went onto an exodus and made unlikely alliances with humans. Theron and Rommath became just as petty and short-sighted as those who exiled the founders of Quel'thalas long ago, but since they are hypocrites they are oblivious to the obvious parallel.

[Rhlor]

The Elves of Quel'Lithien were a minority of the Elves who became Wretched, as is easily seen by the numbers of Wretched who inhabit the Ruins of Silvermoon and its outlying areas such as the Falthrien Academy.



As I said previously, I don't think this logic necessarily follows - so I don't agree that Umbric was an immediate threat to the Sunwell. I'm not completely convinced Alleria is, either; as I think there's a very real possibility she was set-up by Nether-Prince Durzaan.

we were talking about when lorthemar went to offer help to those particular elves and i said they were fools for not accepting that help and now they are monsters.

It's your opinion, I have mine. the void elves were able to stop studying the void.

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The irony here is that there is a clear parallel between the Ren'dorei led by Magister Umbric and the Quel'dorei of old led by Dath'remar. Both were exiled by the government because their ominous powers were deemed too dangerous for society. Both went onto an exodus and made unlikely alliances with humans. Theron and Rommath became just as petty and short-sighted as those who exiled the founders of Quel'thalas long ago, but since they are hypocrites they are oblivious to the obvious parallel.

the highborne were experts in arcane magic, the void elves were playing magic they did not understand and had to be saved in the recruitment quest.

[Varodoc]

we were talking about when lorthemar went to offer help to those particular elves and i said they were fools for not accepting that help and now they are monsters.

It's your opinion, I have mine. the void elves were able to stop studying the void.

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the highborne were experts in arcane magic, the void elves were playing magic they did not understand and had to be saved in the recruitment quest.

They were such experts of the arcane magic that they tried to convince the Kaldorei to keep them by... unleashing a devastating magical storm over the sacred forests of Ashenvale.

Which is a clear parallel to Alleria tainting the Sunwell. Only in Alleria's case it was a genuine accident, while in Dath'remar's case it was straight-up stupidity.

[Aucald]

we were talking about when lorthemar went to offer help to those particular elves and i said they were fools for not accepting that help and now they are monsters.

It's your opinion, I have mine. the void elves were able to stop studying the void.

I don't disagree that Renthar and Aurora were foolish to deny Lor'themar's aid, but I also understand where they were coming from - especially in light of the fact that the original exile saw many of them slaughtered at Nathanos' order while Silvermoon did nothing to help, and actually put them in that predicament to begin with. They were deeply angry and aggrieved at Lor'themar, and they had every right to be so (as Lor'themar himself conceded in Shadow of the Sun).

That anger later led to their corruption and deaths, which is regrettable and it could be argued could also be laid at Lor'themar's feet as well. I'm not personally going to blame him for what happened later, but Lor'themar himself might.

[Rhlor]

I don't disagree that Renthar and Aurora were foolish to deny Lor'themar's aid, but I also understand where they were coming from - especially in light of the fact that the original exile saw many of them slaughtered at Nathanos' order while Silvermoon did nothing to help, and actually put them in that predicament to begin with. They were deeply angry and aggrieved at Lor'themar, and they had every right to be so (as Lor'themar himself conceded in Shadow of the Sun).

That anger later led to their corruption and deaths, which is regrettable and it could be argued could also be laid at Lor'themar's feet as well. I'm not personally going to blame him for what happened later, but Lor'themar himself might.

if they are offered help and they reject it and then decide to use a corrugated source of magic and it is their fault. lorthemar did the right thing by offering help after they did something stupid

[Aucald]

if they are offered help and they reject it and then decide to use a corrugated source of magic and it is their fault. lorthemar did the right thing by offering help after they did something stupid

Lor'themar offered help after the Sunwell was restored, post-TBC but prior to WotLK. The High Elves at Quel'Lithien were corrupted later on, at some point during Cata - these two events aren't necessary connected. Lor'themar also knew he wouldn't be received well (obviously), and relates as much in In the Shadow of the Sun. Given what he had done to them beforehand, his meager assistance was viewed more or less as a slap in the face.

[Rhlor]

Lor'themar offered help after the Sunwell was restored, post-TBC but prior to WotLK. The High Elves at Quel'Lithien were corrupted later on, at some point during Cata - these two events aren't necessary connected. Lor'themar also knew he wouldn't be received well (obviously), and relates as much in In the Shadow of the Sun. Given what he had done to them beforehand, his meager assistance was viewed more or less as a slap in the face.

what a fool of them! If they had accepted the help now they would be fine.

[Aucald]

what a fool of them! If they had accepted the help now they would be fine.

That's hindsight for you, I suppose.

[Vaedan]

the elves of QuelLithein were offered help they rejected it now they are monsters.

They made a decision to study the magic of darkhan and the void, it was dangerous for the sunwell personally with what we saw with alleria is enough for me, if you would have liked to see death and devastation all over Quelthalas I suppose that is your preference , I prefer this.

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do you think the blood elves would allow anyone to enter the sunwell?

quelthalas as sovereign state took a measure to protect the sunwell

We actually don't know what protocols they have for entrance to Sunwell plateau. I guess they will not permit just anyone.

My point was that if you constantly claim presence of void users within Silvermoon or Quel'thalas is a direct danger to the Sunwell, why blood elves does not request to exile all Horde void users? Why just elves are such a problem?

We've seen a void user had to be in direct contact with Sunwell. It was also Alleria, very special case, with very unique powers different to other void elves. We don't know if regular void elves would trigger the same event. When Alleria was just in Silvermoon on her political mission, nothing happened. Letting void researchers in Silvermoon would not affect Sunwell and there would be experts on void in a case Sunwell would be ever threatened by the Void from outside source. These measures you speak of were not needed for safety of Sunwell.

As @Aucald mentioned, exile of Umbric lead directly to transformation into void elves, which definitely pose more threat to Sunwell then just mere elves using Void. Lor'themar is actually responsible for creating more threats to Sunwell by doing so, not to mention he showed he did not learned from his past lessons and is still a leader who puts his own political interests above good and unity of his people.

[Varodoc]

We've seen a void user had to be in direct contact with Sunwell. It was also Alleria, very special case, with very unique powers different to other void elves. We don't know if regular void elves would trigger the same event. When Alleria was just in Silvermoon on her political mission, nothing happened. Letting void researchers in Silvermoon would not affect Sunwell and there would be experts on void in a case Sunwell would be ever threatened by the Void from outside source. These measures you speak of were not needed for safety of Sunwell.

Thank you. People on this forum are convinced that there is no difference at all between Alleria Windrunner the mortal who merged with a dark naaru, and Jim the scholar who cast one Void spell in his entire life.