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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Destiny Man View Post
    Just because specific specs are getting a large volume of changes doesn't mean they're in a good place.

    Balance druids have had LOTS of changes over alpha/beta but the spec is still fairly meh at the minute, especially after the latest build which pushed through nerfs and questionable changes to Lunar Eclipse.

    Number tweaking will continue all the way to S1, I'll certainly keep my options open with alts in case shit hits the fan but it's far too early for doom and gloom.
    Well balance won't ever happen.

    Also it's not even possible to get it that close.

    Finally... Shadowlands has the most complicated system wow has ever had to balance.


    So it won't happen, I can't happen and it's looking harder than ever so be prepared now for a rough one.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Tier sets don’t make or break your class. Artifacts did, Azerite did. and Covenants (with all the implications) will.
    Erm yes they absolutely did. Some of them were broken as fuck as late as Legion; for example Arms shot to the top of the charts thanks to its ToS tier bonus which was incredibly powerful and synergistic, while Fury (one of the worst DPS in ToS after they nuked Draught of Souls) shot to the top in Antorus thanks to a tier bonus that more or less completely changed our talent makeup, stat priority and rotation by putting much less emphasis on steady DPS via Raging Blow and far, far more on lining up an absurdly powerful burst window, especially during execute, meanwhile Arms dropped off to the bottom third.

    Having a bad set bonus could mean your spec floundered or prospered in performance and participation, or other things like having a Legendary while other classes did not (hi late BC, Wrath and Cata). I don't like this revisionist history that bad balance that swung per tier/xpack started with modern borrowed power *scare chord*. It was literally always there.
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  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Erm yes they absolutely did. Some of them were broken as fuck as late as Legion; for example Arms shot to the top of the charts thanks to its ToS tier bonus which was incredibly powerful and synergistic, while Fury (one of the worst DPS in ToS after they nuked Draught of Souls) shot to the top in Antorus thanks to a tier bonus that more or less completely changed our talent makeup, stat priority and rotation by putting much less emphasis on steady DPS via Raging Blow and far, far more on lining up an absurdly powerful burst window, especially during execute, meanwhile Arms dropped off to the bottom third.

    Having a bad set bonus could mean your spec floundered or prospered in performance and participation, or other things like having a Legendary while other classes did not (hi late BC, Wrath and Cata). I don't like this revisionist history that bad balance that swung per tier/xpack started with modern borrowed power *scare chord*. It was literally always there.
    Don’t expect these guys to know any of that. Most of the people who complain about balance issues don’t actually raid. They watch streams and hang out in chats and forums. That’s the hobby to them.

    Every legitimate competitive raider knows and accepts that balance is a spinning wheel of fortune that gives and takes and it’s the players’ job to adjust. And that’s part of the fun when a previously trash spec is buffed to op levels.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by DuskSP View Post
    Well balance won't ever happen.

    Also it's not even possible to get it that close.

    Finally... Shadowlands has the most complicated system wow has ever had to balance.


    So it won't happen, I can't happen and it's looking harder than ever so be prepared now for a rough one.
    Balance in terms of dps number parity isn't really my issue right now. My focus is on how the spec plays and what issues it has vs other classes.

    I'm no FoTM reroller but I'm not a masochist either, I'm not going to force myself to play a spec that both has fundamental design issues and is lagging behind performance wise. Hence why I'm more than likely going to have another class in reserve just in case balance druids get left in the dirt.

  5. #205
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    Can't wait for all the FOTM shadow priests to top meters till 9.1

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Erm yes they absolutely did. Some of them were broken as fuck as late as Legion; for example Arms shot to the top of the charts thanks to its ToS tier bonus which was incredibly powerful and synergistic, while Fury (one of the worst DPS in ToS after they nuked Draught of Souls) shot to the top in Antorus thanks to a tier bonus that more or less completely changed our talent makeup, stat priority and rotation by putting much less emphasis on steady DPS via Raging Blow and far, far more on lining up an absurdly powerful burst window, especially during execute, meanwhile Arms dropped off to the bottom third.

    Having a bad set bonus could mean your spec floundered or prospered in performance and participation, or other things like having a Legendary while other classes did not (hi late BC, Wrath and Cata). I don't like this revisionist history that bad balance that swung per tier/xpack started with modern borrowed power *scare chord*. It was literally always there.
    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Don’t expect these guys to know any of that. Most of the people who complain about balance issues don’t actually raid. They watch streams and hang out in chats and forums. That’s the hobby to them.

    Every legitimate competitive raider knows and accepts that balance is a spinning wheel of fortune that gives and takes and it’s the players’ job to adjust. And that’s part of the fun when a previously trash spec is buffed to op levels.
    I can't fathom how people can come to the conclusion about borrowed power was when balance was screwed. They either didn't play before Legion or they are straight up being dishonest.

    Even in Legion as you point out Jastall tier-sets could be as or even more powerful than legendaries. And through the history of the game tier set bonuses has been unbalanced as hell. Balance will never be "good", just like it never was any "good". And let's not go back to the first 6-8 years of WoW when it was more unbalanced than it has been since modern borrowed power came into the game.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    So you do agree that tier sets are borrowed power? Thanks. Never claimed anything else.
    Ofc they are. Anything you lose is borrowed power including gear. But some people are just too blind to it. They see some sort of UI similar to talents and they instanly assume its somehow something completly different becouse of looks of UI.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewOU2015 View Post
    Can't wait for all the FOTM shadow priests to top meters till 9.1
    While this will probably be true if they nerf SP to the ground I will personally probably stop playing, since there is no other spec that is remotely as fun and well designed as SP.
    Unless they rework like 10 classes in 9.1 which would be ideal to be honest.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewOU2015 View Post
    Can't wait for all the FOTM shadow priests to top meters till 9.1
    shadows and WL are bis for progress cuz the last 2 bosses are 2 target cleave, my guild geting the shadows rdy that we had left form zaqul and Queens court porgress and lvling them same for the locks we go ~4x4 on them if nothig changes balance wise for tier 9.0 ill play lock/shadow too cuz my balance druid does 20% less dps than them, i would say perfect balanced game
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  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And let's not go back to the first 6-8 years of WoW when it was more unbalanced than it has been since modern borrowed power came into the game.
    6-8 years?
    You do realize that is the Vanilla - MoP?

    That's a big claim, especially in the light of early Legion Legendaries and Corruption.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    shadows and WL are bis for progress cuz the last 2 bosses are 2 target cleave, my guild geting the shadows rdy that we had left form zaqul and Queens court porgress and lvling them same for the locks we go ~4x4 on them if nothig changes balance wise for tier 9.0 ill play lock/shadow too cuz my balance druid does 20% less dps than them, i would say perfect balanced game
    If they re bis for last 2 bosses then they are not bis becouse that would mean they would excel on all bosses in raid which is not happening so yeah.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    If they re bis for last 2 bosses then they are not bis becouse that would mean they would excel on all bosses in raid which is not happening so yeah.
    only the 2 last bosses matters for us top 50 players, dont be dense we have alts for the trash bosses befor if they are a problem for some miraculous reason
    Last edited by Feral Druid ist Op; 2020-09-29 at 12:07 AM.
    I.O BFA Season 3


  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I can't fathom how people can come to the conclusion about borrowed power was when balance was screwed. They either didn't play before Legion or they are straight up being dishonest.

    Even in Legion as you point out Jastall tier-sets could be as or even more powerful than legendaries. And through the history of the game tier set bonuses has been unbalanced as hell. Balance will never be "good", just like it never was any "good". And let's not go back to the first 6-8 years of WoW when it was more unbalanced than it has been since modern borrowed power came into the game.
    "Good enough" is as great as the balance ever got (and despite what I said previously I still consider Legion fairly well balanced overall), as good as it'll ever get, and IMO as good as it should get. The game being better balanced would 100% mean gutting tons of variables so Blizzard has fewer tuning problems to worry about, which means less content, fewer abilties, more restrictions, and/or fewer progression paths. It wouldn't make more a better game, and we're just talking about balancing DPS here, not healing, tanking or utilities which are a whole other can of worms.

    Funny part is, for all the screeching about DPS balance it's more often than not far and away the best of all 3 roles. Ask non-Bear tanks what they felt in Legion or what non Brew tanks felt in BFA, or what non Hpally feel in raids since forever, what non Rdruids feel in M+, or what non Disc healers felt back when it hoarded meters with a million bubbles. Meanwhile apart from a bottom third DPS specs often see a fairly widespread representation even to the top level.

    If you ask me I'd rather they get to balancing stuff like Stagger or Rdruid being the only healer with a combat rez, alongside other utility shenanigans like Rogue's endless bad of tricks, Havoc's insanely powerful M+ toolkit, stuff like that, Hpally's completely unmatched raid utility, meanwhile Priest get to give a stam buff and Shaman get to self-rez every 30 minutes when their shit mobility and durability fails them yet again. These are often felt for far, far longer than a single tier.
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  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinBash View Post
    Just play a trash spec so you can be known as "the good X" rather than just being a nameless faceless Mage or some shit. You never hope for anything good or better, you just get pleasantly surprised if your spec is ever not shit. It's pure bliss to play an awful spec because it will keep you from taking the game too seriously.
    On the plus side too, you can just play shaman forever. Odds are on your side that one of the specs will be the worst at it's role.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    6-8 years?
    You do realize that is the Vanilla - MoP?

    That's a big claim, especially in the light of early Legion Legendaries and Corruption.

    I agree, that claim of 6-8 years is absolutely absurd. There were periods of imbalance.

    If they have balance now its because they refuse to innovate. A sad way to achieve it.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Thread like this usually means "They haven't made my main class OP yet!! Dammit Blizz, make me OP!!!"
    I'd say it means "Hey Blizzard, you said goal was to be within 5% of each other and we're not seeing that. Why not,what are you doing about it, and do you really think this is an achievable goal with as little time as is left?"

    That aside, I'm going to agree. Blizzard has never been able to balance classes and specs. Why they thought they could balance a system lasagna, let alone one that is on an adjustable ilvl scale, is beyond common sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If they have balance now its because they refuse to innovate. A sad way to achieve it.
    Do you really think the only way to innovate is through damaging abilities and complex borrowed power systems?

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    6-8 years?
    You do realize that is the Vanilla - MoP?

    That's a big claim, especially in the light of early Legion Legendaries and Corruption.
    If you know math thats up to MoP, not included. I could have said 6 years but Cata had it as well. MoP was better than the other ones for the most part. I did not say 6 to 10 years.

    Its not a big claim, if anything that was me being gentle. Are you going to say stuff was balanced in vanilla/tbc/wotlk and cata? Now thats a big claim, because it was not.

    You are talking about certain corruptions and legendaries being unbalanced, I talk about classes in general vs each other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I agree, that claim of 6-8 years is absolutely absurd. There were periods of imbalance.

    If they have balance now its because they refuse to innovate. A sad way to achieve it.
    Lets pretend vanillla/tbc/wotlk and cata were balanced. Periods of imbalance is what we have these days, aka last few years. Again, its not a claim. People who played back then know how screwed class balance were.

    The discussion was how someone claims that borrowed powered breaks or makes classes. When tier sets have done that since forever. Then when we talk about balance, classes was less balanced before overall.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-09-29 at 04:49 AM.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Erm yes they absolutely did. Some of them were broken as fuck as late as Legion; for example Arms shot to the top of the charts thanks to its ToS tier bonus which was incredibly powerful and synergistic, while Fury (one of the worst DPS in ToS after they nuked Draught of Souls) shot to the top in Antorus thanks to a tier bonus that more or less completely changed our talent makeup, stat priority and rotation by putting much less emphasis on steady DPS via Raging Blow and far, far more on lining up an absurdly powerful burst window, especially during execute, meanwhile Arms dropped off to the bottom third.

    Having a bad set bonus could mean your spec floundered or prospered in performance and participation, or other things like having a Legendary while other classes did not (hi late BC, Wrath and Cata). I don't like this revisionist history that bad balance that swung per tier/xpack started with modern borrowed power *scare chord*. It was literally always there.
    One tier set doesn’t make your class. It simply doesn’t. Being overpowered because of one bonus doesn’t make your class as it can easily be fixed or removed and not much does change (not even the ones you mentioned). Artifacts, Azerite and Covenants ARE your entire class for the duration of the expansion. They are so complex and interwoven that you cannot remove them without drastically changing your class or gameplay. That has never been the case with any tier set. They might have made classes incredibly strong due to an overpowered bonus, but no class gameplay ever relied completely on that tier set.

    It’s basically two/three tier set bonuses vs. Soulbinds+Conduits+Covenant Skills / Azerite traits+Essences(+Corruption). There is not even a comparison to the amount of useless complexity added by the latter systems compared to the first (plus how big of a part they are of class development).
    Last edited by Nyel; 2020-09-29 at 06:16 AM.
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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by irollyo View Post
    Sure others have brought this up before but after constantly reading the patch notes each week hoping for change and seeing little to nothing for so many classes just felt the need to vent. I feel as though blizzard is really dropping the ball with classes this expac focusing only on a set few classes which constantly seem to be getting a notable amount of changes and buffs each week while a majority might get one small change which has little to no impact.

    Personally i main a mw monk (took a break a few months ago) but have been eagerly following class changes and patch notes to see how the class has changed and what cool new things i can look forward too. But week after week all i have seen are constant small changes to the same things which include just resting or deleting what they did just the previous week and trying to pass it off like they are actually trying to balance the spec. i know wind walkers and im sure many other classes may feel the same.

    From watching videos ( as i don't have beta) i have also got the general impression that blizzard has largely dropped the ball for covenants and legendaries for a number of specs as well.

    Tldr- blizzard are shit at balancing have made good changes to a few specs busy patting them self on the back while ignoring a number of others.
    The amount of testing that has been done is minimal, they haven't even done any massive balance passes yet. Why do people always feel the need to yell that the sky is falling?

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  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    One tier set doesn’t make your class. It simply doesn’t. Being overpowered because of one bonus doesn’t make your class as it can easily be fixed or removed and not much does change (not even the ones you mentioned). Artifacts, Azerite and Covenants ARE your entire class for the duration of the expansion. They are so complex and interwoven that you cannot remove them without drastically changing your class or gameplay. That has never been the case with any tier set. They might have made classes incredibly strong due to an overpowered bonus, but no class gameplay ever relied completely on that tier set.

    It’s basically two/three tier set bonuses vs. Soulbinds+Conduits+Covenant Skills / Azerite traits+Essences(+Corruption). There is not even a comparison to the amount of useless complexity added by the latter systems compared to the first (plus how big of a part they are of class development).
    The post you replied to GAVE AN EXAMPLE of how a tier set completely changed a spec and you somehow missed that? Tier sets are borrowed power that you had to roll the dice if your was good or not.

    You are wrong. Period. Now i will anxiously await your freak out response.

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