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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Drub View Post
    Every single ability doesn't need 'pow boom poo huge damage now' for it to be worthwhile. It's a self buff instead of just another 'do straight-forward damage'. Pretty sure demon hunter was made just for that.
    Its not about numbers... its the opposite actually. It deals the most damage, so you cant skip it, and its made even more powerful for assassination, and that makes it so assassination will most likely have biggest ratio of white damage/total damage of all 3 specs... quite strange indeed for spec called assassination. Its the fact that it makes gameplay worse for no reason. If it didnt exist and all other stuff was buffed a bit, you would still deal same damage, but with better gameplay... so it is 100% bad thing, in assassination at least.

    If you think people dont like it cause it doesnt do "'pow boom poo huge damage now'" then you completely missed the point. Other specs have gameplay benefits from it, energy for outlaw and energy+cp for subtlety. Assassination gets JUST damage. If they made it weaker instead of stronger for assassination, but added some effect that would help the gameplay(energy regen) of the spec, then fine, but they did the opposite. If they wanted to add maintenance buff to assassination, "less attack speed than other specs and more energy regen from it" way would balance its active and passive effect on spec and wouldnt completely ruin the gameplay.

    Though im having a hard time understanding how some people can just accept that your gameplay has been made worse for no reason and for no benefit at all. Your damage will be balanced with it in mind, so that means you will deal less "active" damage, and on top of that, your gameplay will be worse cause you will have to waste resources on it and will have even more ramp up... as assassination, that has most ramp up already. Its like they thought that spec was too fun, so decided to make it less fun for some reason. Quite strange stance in game development.

    It literally makes no sense what they did. It doesnt fit the spec at all(white damage auto attack assassination... so much sense), its made even stronger for spec (it would make more sense for outlaw/combat) and it provides absolutely nothing but shift your damage source from active to more passive with added annoyance of maintenance buff and even more ramp up. It is pure insanity/laziness/incompetence from Blizzard and its completely negative change. The way they've done it cannot be defended... so stop trying, especially by making up stuff thats not even an issue("it doesnt do big damage" when in reality its all it does, and that is the issue).
    Last edited by genaian; 2020-09-29 at 10:32 AM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by genaian View Post
    -snip-
    Basically agree with this. I can see why SnD has been brought back and it's an iconic ability and everything else. Though the point is not if it's a good or bad ability (it actually just works and gives us a lot of damage so no complaints), but how it fits the specs.

    Assassination can have more poison procs from it, and that is a good degree of damage, but that's it. Plus, the concept of the spec is deliberate slow attacks and dots, and even if many people don't like it (and i can see why) SnD simply doesn't fit the other tools.

    Random idea: instead of an attack speed buff, it could be a low duration poison that complements the others you have. Still a maintenance buff, still something you want 100% uptime, but just makes more sense given the spec.

    One thing is unprinung the specs to make them more engaging to play. Another thing is to just re-enable old buttons baseline because "we need more buttons". Does it work? Very likely, but it's not really the best solution. Likely it's the easiest one.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Drub View Post
    Every single ability doesn't need 'pow boom poo huge damage now' for it to be worthwhile. It's a self buff instead of just another 'do straight-forward damage'. Pretty sure demon hunter was made just for that.
    Muti hasn't had to actively maintained SnD since Cata, this is literally backwards spec development because SnD was just lazily sloshed back into the class without any thought in a desperate appeal to nostalgia.

    It's not that SnD is universally bad mind you, with RtB moving to a CD there was absolutely space for it in combat, when you add in that RtBs actually interacts with SnD so it's not just set and forget you can see a real difference between a spec where an ability is entirely vestigial and where it actually works.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  4. #84
    Well Assa especially needed another layer of complexity. Yes, assa has a longer rampup, but this gives them room to tune it higher in dps. Some people also like that it feels slower. But as for me, if they added soem energy regen to autos for assa, it would be fine. Since assa feels pretty slow.

    Sub feels really hectic to me, i feel like i keep getting so much energy and combo points with haste, legendaries etc., i can barely spend my combo points. So for me, sub doesnt seem to be tuned around having slice and dice (+wf) + certain talents etc.

    Dont forget that frequent casts after tuning means that you cannot tune damage very high. So actually i think sub could really skip it because it already has enough complexity. I am not so sure that its current iteration is too fast.

    I didnt test outlaw but feedback was that outlaw is still very simple and SND is a good addition to complexity. So it looks fine to outlaw now that they cannot RTB.
    Last edited by Aurosh; 2020-09-29 at 11:20 AM.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeler View Post
    No, and it's desperately needed. It plays like Affliction lock with daggers and feels disgusting.
    I have to agree current version of Sub feels bad to play. With SND it returns the spec one step closer to Rogue and spec fantasy of Sub.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurosh View Post
    Well Assa especially needed another layer of complexity. Yes, assa has a longer rampup, but this gives them room to tune it higher in dps. Some people also like that it feels slower. But as for me, if they added soem energy regen to autos for assa, it would be fine. Since assa feels pretty slow.
    Even if that is so, SnD can't really achieve that extra layer of complexity for assassination. It's just another buff to keep track of, no real decision making involved. And before someone says that using 3 or 4 cp SnD depending on the situation is real decision making and tactical thinking... Yes, I've seen people saying this... well... think again. And even when it doesn't really add anything positive for sin, it makes the spec have more ramp up and feel even slower, which is bad in general, more so for 5mans. So, it's a clear downgrade to player's enjoyment imo. It seems fine for sub and outlaw, just not for sin.

    Why do we get it then? They just wanted to give some signature abilities back to classes, because they have now decided to believe in the great unprunning. Well, blindly doing such things, without any regard to how each spec plays out, is... well... bad decision making.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
    Even if that is so, SnD can't really achieve that extra layer of complexity for assassination. It's just another buff to keep track of, no real decision making involved. And before someone says that using 3 or 4 cp SnD depending on the situation is real decision making and tactical thinking... Yes, I've seen people saying this... well... think again. And even when it doesn't really add anything positive for sin, it makes the spec have more ramp up and feel even slower, which is bad in general, more so for 5mans. So, it's a clear downgrade to player's enjoyment imo. It seems fine for sub and outlaw, just not for sin.

    Why do we get it then? They just wanted to give some signature abilities back to classes, because they have now decided to believe in the great unprunning. Well, blindly doing such things, without any regard to how each spec plays out, is... well... bad decision making.
    Ok, but my counterpoint is... So what? Why should rogue be the only class to not be bogged down by weird mechanics that feel out of place? Literally every class has it. Just embrace it like everybody else had to.

  8. #88
    Honestly I like Slice and Dice. Rather than just rip it out of Rogue entirely they should work on making it make more sense.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  9. #89
    I was happy when it overwrote Roll the Bones so I wouldn't have to deal with giant dice rolling around me. The most unimmersive ability ever.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I never missed this ability and they're pushing it back onto all 3 rogue specs... am I missing something? Why would they do this?
    You're in the minority. People have been begging for Slice and Dice to be good for almost the entirety of 2 expansions for Outlaw. And the majority of the players from other specs have wanted it back.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Muti hasn't had to actively maintained SnD since Cata, this is literally backwards spec development because SnD was just lazily sloshed back into the class without any thought in a desperate appeal to nostalgia.

    It's not that SnD is universally bad mind you, with RtB moving to a CD there was absolutely space for it in combat, when you add in that RtBs actually interacts with SnD so it's not just set and forget you can see a real difference between a spec where an ability is entirely vestigial and where it actually works.
    Welcome to what happens when the Devs want to capitalize on Classic, don't think about how broken some stuff was back then, and just copies and pastes old mechanics to a very different game

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    this is me realizing other people didn't talent into SnD for the entirety of the past two expansions

    I hated how random RTB felt

    Also I still use slice admiral so I never need to worry about SnD falling off lol
    You know what is even worse than that? The fact that it really does not keep up with RtB.

    I gotta pinch myself sometimes when Blizzard decided to make one of the most dependable specs so "lol random" you can almost triple your damage because you get lucky. Stupid stupid.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    You're in the minority. People have been begging for Slice and Dice to be good for almost the entirety of 2 expansions for Outlaw. And the majority of the players from other specs have wanted it back.
    Definitely not true. Outlaw wanted to NOT use roll the bones and snd was the alternative in front of them thanks to the talent. I've never seen any sub or assassin rogue actively ask for snd to come back.p

  14. #94
    Every time I use Slice and Dice I die inside a little.

    Most of the time it feels as if I just lost my combo points and nothing happened. That's an awful feeling.

    I wish it never existed in the first place. It would kill all of the stupid nostalgia that led us to this dreadful place.
    Once upon a time... the end. Next time, try twice upon a time.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    You're in the minority. People have been begging for Slice and Dice to be good for almost the entirety of 2 expansions for Outlaw. And the majority of the players from other specs have wanted it back.
    You are in the minority. People have been begging for Slice and Dice to be removed for almost the entirety of WoW except for Outlaw. And the nobody of the players from other specs have wanted it back.

    There.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    You're in the minority. People have been begging for Slice and Dice to be good for almost the entirety of 2 expansions for Outlaw. And the majority of the players from other specs have wanted it back.
    I would ask for a source but I think everyone here knows this is just an asspull.

    As I mentioned previously Muti hasn't needed to actively maintain SnD since cata (read: the majority of the game's history). There is no universe where people who have been playing muti since before cata are either the majority of muti players or care about snd at all.
    It just doesn't work with the cadence of the spec (which is why it was basically shelved via a passive in the first spec). It's not just a 'feels neutral' button like arguably it was in sub it actually feels bad to use because it eats more envenoms then it should on paper with not only competing with rupture but muti's pooling/slow cp gen.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  17. #97
    Slice and Dice isn't even on the bars when you make a rogue on beta, despite several empty slots. So even Blizzard doesn't think it's super fun... never heard anyone wanting it back for Assa either.

  18. #98
    It was removed from the spec for a good reason and i still don't understand why they bring it back. Maintenance buffs are not a problem by their own, is the lack of interaction with other parts of the spec and even how the spec is designed to work what makes them bad/bland/boring.

    SnD for mut is just a way to increase auto attack speed, and that ends up with more posion procs, but since that's just a very passive part of our damage, having to spend combo points to keep it up has never felt rewarding or interesting. Many years ago i used to defend that instead of SnD, assassination rogues should have an active 'venomous wounds' that worked both as SnD and venomous wounds, so not only would we get the attack speed, but also the energy gains from bleeds.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    Ok, but my counterpoint is... So what? Why should rogue be the only class to not be bogged down by weird mechanics that feel out of place? Literally every class has it. Just embrace it like everybody else had to.
    Nice, ha ha.

  20. #100
    Not liking SND either, it takes too long to get damage rolling and your abilities feel much less impactful when so much of your damage is tied up in maintenance buffs and dots.

    I think keeping rupture and garotte up feels good, and so does rupture + occasional Symbols of Death. Slice N Dice feels like a chore and a delay on your kidneyshots or evisc/envenom.
    Last edited by Warning; 2020-10-05 at 04:28 PM.

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