Is it fun to be bad at the game?

[Laerrus]

I see the argument brought up a lot that content should be based around the worst of the playerbase. Those who will never move past heroic dungeons or unrated battlegrounds and I have to ask why?

Is the game better when you do 1/10 of another players output from willfully not knowing how your rotation should work or how your choices effect it?

Is pvp better when due to a lack of understanding you find yourself facing off against "unkillable" classes like DH,Druids, and disc priests?

There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.

I swear, this shit never ends.

Come on man, don't you have anything else better to do than whine about how someone chooses to play the game?

[Baneto]

The OP didn't really have any kind of rational point, though. His question would have made sense, but then the rest of his post was nonsense which proved he didn't understand the issue, and suggested he wasn't very interested in genuine answers, but rather just insulting players.

You seem to like you might be about to go the same way - it looks like you're suggesting people in this thread are "bad at the game". If you believe that, you have no idea what you're talking about, and need to seriously re-evaluate your opinions. Pretty much no-one who posts here, certainly no regular posters here, are remotely "bad at the game" in the way the OP describes. I get that you're apparently new, but that is utterly ridiculous.

Thinking about that, kind of curious that he got banned, and here's a new poster with 57 posts pushing the same agenda, isn't it? I'm not saying anything, but you've just come out of nowhere with the same tack as him, claiming he was right for the same irrational reasons, and that looks really sus to me.

To answer the question, personally I know some super-casual players who barely understand basic mechanics in WoW (friends, relatives), but they enjoy WoW just fine. Do they enjoy it "more" than people who know mechanics in detail? I don't think so. Do they enjoy it less, though, than people who know mechanics in detail? No, looks like it's about the same. That's pretty interesting to me, because it suggests WoW is managing to appeal to people at very different levels of engagement with the game mechanics.

WoW isn't very good at teaching or explaining mechanics in-game, either. To learn detailed stuff, you pretty much have to fail at it a lot in-game, or go to a website and have it explained to you, which for most players, is a whole lot of effort. There is a real problem in that the difficulty/complexity of gameplay from the open-world to even NON-heroic dungeons is a massive leap (rather than barely a leap at all as it was in some of the earlier expansions), let alone heroic or M+, so super-casual players coming to that (something the game encourages them to do) will be confused/upset and cause problems for their group. Likewise in PvP, new and inexperienced PvPers are thrown in with ultra-veterans, so they're a liability. Back in, say, Vanilla, this gap was much smaller - not because Vanilla was better at teaching or anything really, but because even good players weren't THAT good. Now, though, the gap between some super-expert 16-year vet, and some nooblet who has played maybe a lot total of a few days over three years or whatever is utterly gigantic. And there's no place for those people to learn in-game, really. They have to either go watch videos and hope they understand, or go read guides and hope they understand. The sort of guilds which used to teach/nurture new players are largely gone, too, now. The only guilds remaining tend to be l337 raiderz who are obsessed with Mythic raiding and might condescend to do some M+, or invite-everyone guilds that don't actually DO anything.

I dont believe anyone enjoys being bad at anything if thats what you're asking me. Thats a complete waste of time, and each time I've been feeling bad at a game I have just quit playing it out of annoyance. (The Last of Us for example, I really suck at that game).

For wow being bad at explaining stuff I dont think much has changed mechanics-wise in the 10 years I have played the game personally.
Telegraphed cone-abilities, big aoe-abilities charging up etc, most of the things in game are telegraphed.

And no, Im not the same guy as OP by the way.

[Eurhetemec]

I dont believe anyone enjoys being bad at anything if thats what you're asking me. Thats a complete waste of time, and each time I've been feeling bad at a game I have just quit playing it out of annoyance. (The Last of Us for example, I really suck at that game).

For wow being bad at explaining stuff I dont think much has changed mechanics-wise in the 10 years I have played the game personally.
Telegraphed cone-abilities, big aoe-abilities charging up etc, most of the things in game are telegraphed.

And no, Im not the same guy as OP by the way.

I gave you a detailed answer and this is what you come back with? Come on.

WoW isn't the sort of game you're describing. The people you and the OP are complaining about aren't so bad they find it frustrating. Almost no-one is. You can easily go through WoW, just doing quests and outdoor stuff and low-level dungeons, and never realize you don't know much about the game. It's only going to get "frustrating" if you're not knowledgeable/skillful at the game and try and do harder stuff. Even then, it's often not obvious to people that they're the problem. Yeah, some people blame others when they know they messed up - but other people genuinely don't know.

Your other point is meaningless. Sure, they haven't changed much, but the reality is, you don't need to understand that stuff or deal with it really well to play 1-120 in WoW, or do non-dungeon/raid endgame content. And the game doesn't actually teach any of it. It's amazing the stuff you find people don't know when you talk to them, the holes in their knowledge, even people who are relatively good at the game.

[natpick]

I see the argument brought up a lot that content should be based around the worst of the playerbase. Those who will never move past heroic dungeons or unrated battlegrounds and I have to ask why?

Is the game better when you do 1/10 of another players output from willfully not knowing how your rotation should work or how your choices effect it?

Is pvp better when due to a lack of understanding you find yourself facing off against "unkillable" classes like DH,Druids, and disc priests?

There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.

is there something wrong with you?seriously why would you make a post like this knowing fine well it will get peoples backs up,it should be no concern to you or anyone else how other players enjoy the game,are you bored?honestly this type of thread should be closed for obvious reasons.

[Baneto]

I gave you a detailed answer and this is what you come back with? Come on.

WoW isn't the sort of game you're describing. The people you and the OP are complaining about aren't so bad they find it frustrating. Almost no-one is. You can easily go through WoW, just doing quests and outdoor stuff and low-level dungeons, and never realize you don't know much about the game. It's only going to get "frustrating" if you're not knowledgeable/skillful at the game and try and do harder stuff. Even then, it's often not obvious to people that they're the problem. Yeah, some people blame others when they know they messed up - but other people genuinely don't know.

Your other point is meaningless. Sure, they haven't changed much, but the reality is, you don't need to understand that stuff or deal with it really well to play 1-120 in WoW, or do non-dungeon/raid endgame content. And the game doesn't actually teach any of it. It's amazing the stuff you find people don't know when you talk to them, the holes in their knowledge, even people who are relatively good at the game.

Just because I disagree with you? Come on

WoW is a different genre game than the example I provided, but it still is a game so my point still stands.
The players that are bad at the game doesnt care and will not improve since the content (lfr, world quests, random hcs) doesnt challenge them to it.

My other point is not meaningless in any way, over time someone can learn these basic mechanics and improve, it is not that complicated.
Sure some people are basket-cases and will not even learn how to move out of fire, but thats an extreme case of bad.

[Ragnarohk]

People with this mentality are the ones that think that if you're not the CEO of Google then you're losing in life.

[Mythen]

No...the real question is...why the hell do you care? Not everyone raids, not everyone collects pets, ect ect ect. Geez just leave people alone and let them do what they want.

Well said.

[AntenoraDK]

I see the argument brought up a lot that content should be based around the worst of the playerbase. Those who will never move past heroic dungeons or unrated battlegrounds and I have to ask why?

Is the game better when you do 1/10 of another players output from willfully not knowing how your rotation should work or how your choices effect it?

Is pvp better when due to a lack of understanding you find yourself facing off against "unkillable" classes like DH,Druids, and disc priests?

There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.

Why does it matter to you how someone plays the game?


Different people have different ideas of fun in a video game.



Just because someone doesn't enjoy the same type of content as you doesn't make them a bad player.



Leave people alone to play the game HOW THEY WANT.

[Eurhetemec]

WoW is a different genre game than the example I provided, but it still is a game so my point still stands.
The players that are bad at the game doesnt care and will not improve since the content (lfr, world quests, random hcs) doesnt challenge them to it.

That's my point.

OP asked "Is it fun to be bad?" It's not a good question.

The real question is "Is WoW fun to play even when you don't know much about it and can't play well?". The answer is yes, so long as you stay away from endgame dungeons/raids.

My other point is not meaningless in any way, over time someone can learn these basic mechanics and improve, it is not that complicated.
Sure some people are basket-cases and will not even learn how to move out of fire, but thats an extreme case of bad.

Sorry, it is. The game doesn't teach them. It isn't even good at letting you know when you stand in fire unless you mod the UI. Esp. as some "fire" like like 1% of health/tick and some is like 80% health/tick.

Now it may be that the new intro zone DOES teach people this. I heard it specifically taught people about standing in fire. If so, that's good, and an improvement, and will help people.

All that said the worst people for standing in fire, in my experience, aren't "bad noobs who know nothing about the game", it's "bad DPS who ignore fire and so on so they can get a better score on the DPS meter and expect the healer to just heal them through it" (which is often mathematically impossible to do and keep the tank alive lol). The total nooblets I've played with often do move out of fire - so long as it looks scary lol! But they'll move out of a scary-looking fire that does 1% damage, but fail to move out of a non-scary looking fire that does like 30% damage/tick, and they'll maybe also move out of your druid mushroom heal or whatever because it looks alarming lolol.

Point is though, the answer to the OP's question is simple - "Is WoW fun when you're pretty bad?" Yes. It's not more fun, but it is fun. And being super-good at the game doesn't always make the game more fun, esp. as you start noticing flaws in both how other people play and the design of the game. It's like my wife watching figure-skating - to me it's like "Wow they spun a lot cool! Gosh that looks hard! That was a beautiful movement!" and so on, and she's like "That was only two and a half rotations, she won't get a high enough score. That isn't hard and the judges know it. Actually she flubbed the landing." and so on. She doesn't say it like that, she's kinder but you get my point I think - sometimes knowing a little about something is more fun than knowing a ton. Or different fun, at least.

People with this mentality are the ones that think that if you're not the CEO of Google then you're losing in life.

Yeah it's not a helpful mentality for them or others. Unless they're the CEO's right-hand person or whatever I guess lol.

[loras]

I see the argument brought up a lot that content should be based around the worst of the playerbase. Those who will never move past heroic dungeons or unrated battlegrounds and I have to ask why?

Is the game better when you do 1/10 of another players output from willfully not knowing how your rotation should work or how your choices effect it?

Is pvp better when due to a lack of understanding you find yourself facing off against "unkillable" classes like DH,Druids, and disc priests?

There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.

Because denying people content means they don't get what they paid for in effect, thus wasting developer time and losing the company money.

Plus it shrinks the player pool, as keeping people stuck somewhere on a game will just make people think "Fine, i'll just go do something else.". It's a game after all, tedious and pointless difficulty will always be punished as people can very easily ignore its existence completely, and many do not have the time to devote to it to rival the "Git gud" crowd.

The trick is to make content that's fun for all, that provides enough challenge, keeps people interested while avoiding frustration, that way people learn passively and get better.
You cannot seriously expect people to devote time specifically to get better at something so pointless as a videogame after all, that just shows a complete detachment from reality.
(Mind you that this refers to attempting a challenge, if one tries something beyond him/her without proper efforts to improve then one is simply punishing him/her self)

Also let's be clear: minmaxers are an undeniable cancer in any non-real environment, since no purpose is served by trying to squeeze everything from a character. It's effectively hacking within the rules, breaking the game while technically following the rules. It's allowed by definition, but the last thing it deserves is respect.

[Jazzhands]

Do people really enjoy playing backyard football? I mean you're not doing anywhere near what the pros do, how can that be fun!?

[sunnycutie]

People who are bad are merely ignorant of how to play well.

- - - Updated - - -

Do people really enjoy playing backyard football? I mean you're not doing anywhere near what the pros do, how can that be fun!?

But you're not playing WoW with people who are exactly at your skill level. It's amateurs playing together with pros, and the pros are of course bothered by amateurs dragging the performance of the group down. You don't have pros playing with amateurs in football, these people would be thrown out of the team very quickly. So is it fun to play together with people that are so much better than you, to the point where they are annoyed by your ineptitude? Certainly not, those are the kind of people that will start complaining about how the community is toxic because someone called them out on their bad playstyle.

[Magicon]

I see the argument brought up a lot that content should be based around the worst of the playerbase. Those who will never move past heroic dungeons or unrated battlegrounds and I have to ask why?

Is the game better when you do 1/10 of another players output from willfully not knowing how your rotation should work or how your choices effect it?

Is pvp better when due to a lack of understanding you find yourself facing off against "unkillable" classes like DH,Druids, and disc priests?

There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.

the game is just not good enough to have a reason to be good at it anymore. atm i focus on being good at things irl and just play wow to chill out at times. I used to care and be among the good players before. I still know how to play all the classes and their boring rotations etc, but I don't really care. and I am sure there is alot funnier to be bad in wow and kid around than being too much focused on the game and its numbers 24/7, also, getting in the elite categorization doesn't get healthy, been there before and it was not really that fun.

The most fun in wow for the moment is the 2 first weeks of a expension and the first week of a patch update, just because it brings something new. I have plenty other stuff to be good at atm.

Another question for you tho: Is it fun being on a treadmill of a game? is it smart to keep running on that treadmill? Is that better than enjoying other things in life, other games, other hobbies, travels? And from the perspective of those who live life without gaming: Is it fun being bad at life?

[keldarepewpew]

I think the Token are starting to show its cons. Players now just want to be good at the game to carry people for gold so they can play the game for free. Must be tiresome after some time but it pushes people into that elite mindset, and seeing high roller guilds like Gallywix falling to RWT, no doubt you can link the pictures to that aswell.

The tokens were a nice band aid but now the festering wound of gold sellers as bursted open again, even more viler than before.

I have always tried to push my gameplay to the max and would be what you call an elitist and i have never interacted with the token in any way shape or form. Pretending the token creates elitism idk.

[Lord Pebbleton]

I am very bad at PvP. It's not fun sucking at it, but I really don't like that aspect of the game, so I'd rather skip it/do the bare minimum and be done.

Now, being bad at the game at large... it doesn't sound fun at all. I would think it very strange to choose to be underperforming in a game all about cooperative effort like a MMO, but if I am not effected by others doing this, then I guess it's fine.

The problem arises when people want to be bad in a specific environment where you cannot afford to be. I remember doing LFR N'zoth which, as is now very well known, is a raid breaker, and after I tried telling the group what we were supposed to do to survive, a guy blurted out "It's a game, I want to have fun, not learn stuff" (paraphrased for obscenities). That guy was a direct cause of our failing, and that is not ok.

[Pivotal]

OP seems to think that being bad = wanting to stay that way. It's all a learning curve for every person that want to get better. Everyone is bad at some point and there will always be players who are learning the game.

Then of course, there are players that do not want to learn as in-depth as others may (aka casuals). If they are enjoying their time then who are you to tell question their enjoyment? If anything, you get to stomp them and should therefore only serve as a positive thing for the more hardcore player.

[Baneto]

minmaxers are an undeniable cancer in any non-real environment, since no purpose is served by trying to squeeze everything from a character. It's effectively hacking within the rules, breaking the game while technically following the rules. It's allowed by definition, but the last thing it deserves is respect.

Thats quite an extreme opinion to have on people that play content that doesnt matter to you.


Why are you so mad at players that like to play the game different than you? Did they kill your dog or something?

[LordTakeo]

Honestly, I am very very compeditive.

I used to progress raid back in MoP, but...
Ever since I got a job, I lack time. And the last few expansions made high level stuff not hard but rather time consuming. (AP grind, M+ titanforge fishing, ect)
So I just pugged through heroic raids in legion and bfa, which was surprisingly fun. I got back into a guild for that quality banter though.

[Jazzhands]

People who are bad are merely ignorant of how to play well.

- - - Updated - - -



But you're not playing WoW with people who are exactly at your skill level. It's amateurs playing together with pros, and the pros are of course bothered by amateurs dragging the performance of the group down. You don't have pros playing with amateurs in football, these people would be thrown out of the team very quickly. So is it fun to play together with people that are so much better than you, to the point where they are annoyed by your ineptitude? Certainly not, those are the kind of people that will start complaining about how the community is toxic because someone called them out on their bad playstyle.

Except WoW has a variety of methods to help you select the people you play with, one of them being this big thing lately that casuals seem to hate because it works so well, it's called Raider.io. You have almost complete control of who you play the game with, if you are a pro and you choose to play with amateurs then get annoyed that they're amateurs, that's on you.

You also drastically over-estimate how much people care about the feelings of random other people in video games. Very, very few people likely care at all if their poor performance is annoying a pro, and the hilarious thing is that the "bad" player is likely actually doing fine, they're just being compared to a pro on the meters because people think that bar relates to dick size, and an amateur or even decent player is never going to look good compared to a pro. I'd also like to point out that there's a toxic way to call someone out for being a bad player and a non-toxic way. Given the general state of the internet it shouldn't be hard to figure out which one likely happens more often.

[1st Heka]

In all facets of life there are some people who are almost proud of how much they don't care about things others care about. I saw it when I worked retail too. "Why are you working so hard, it's just a retail job..."

"It's just school."
"It's just a B."
"It's just a hobby."
"It's just job."

People love to tell you what should be considered worthy of putting effort into, and for some reason most people don't consider video games in that category. Though most people wouldn't bat an eye at people who spend hours of effort playing a sport or learning an instrument. Hobbies are hobbies.

tldr: People like being on their high horse looking down at others regardless of what the topic is.

This is 100% truth