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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Frankly i never did appreciate Diablo and PoE either, though i have only bothered with the former. Skillwise they're trivially easy, yet depend entirely on getting some cheesy build for you to sometimes even survive the barest of hits.

    Such dichotomy is, in my opinion, the perfect example of the way in which minmaxing is a cancer: it reduces genuine choice and skill to some farce by messing with the scaling to the point that the highest difficulties become trivial with the cookiecutter builds, yet the lowest might struggle while never even seeing the higher difficulty.

    It just fucks with the way games work: you have to do a thing succesfully before you get to see more, that's the difference between a book and a game (with more interesting mechanics considered to be part of a game's story too in this analogy).

    So yes: anything that invalidates genuine choices and large parts of a game is bad by my book.
    (which is not to say that every nonsense combination should work, but i.e. every option in a talent tree should have more than a niche use)

    And mind you that i do not claim any oppression, just undue influence unhealthy to the game as a whole.
    Again, I have to heavily disagree, and a true balance will never really exist. There will be always that one build, because if everything performs the same, why choosing the more difficult build? Or why choosing at all?
    I think having 2-3 paths to take is pretty healthy, especially when all these paths and builds perform differently at all content.

    Playing optimally, is just the natural progression. It doesn't stop you from playing something you enjoy, because, you, well, play it, because you enjoy it. If it would perform as good as the handbreaking build, there wouldn't be a choice either, you'd pick the fun one.
    Even if both are equal fun, then you pick the one thats easier to play.
    If both are easy, you pick the one thats less played, or is a reference.
    And so on, and so forth.

    But alas, I think we said already everything we could on this topic.

    Edit: Saw your last post, and same to you!

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    when I play any game, I play to win. to win you must get better. I could never understand the people who does the content and never get any better.
    I am 33 now. Still playing soccer constantly both at work and on sundays every week. Never ever in my life I started a game saying/hoping "let's lose".

    why do you play a game? when the game becomes enjoyable?
    for me if you know the rules of the game and execute them properly while getting yourself mentally and physically better. I can never understand people that refuse to get out of fire on the ground.
    Well, thats you, you simply take gaming seriously. You want to better yourself in your own eyes and in eyes of people you play with, you dont want to be judged by others for not performing, you are simply competitive type.

    Others do it differently, others dont have a need to show off the others or to themselves, others play to relax after work/school, kill some time, they dont have the need to learn. Or they are simply like you at other things, like at work and dont care about being good in the game.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Im going to assume that you're just not being serious at this point.
    From what I've gathered from your post you mostly play PvP which is fine, but thats a minigame and doesnt really have anything to do with end-game in mind (such as cutting edge raids and high-end mythic+) where people actually apply min-maxing the most.

    How are they "breaking the rules" in that fashion? If its in the game its within the rules of the game, I have no idea what you're talking about.


    Frankly my dude, you make no sense here.
    Right, and i'm the one not being serious.

    Also i specifically said "technically not breaking the rules", but as your regard for PvE illustrates i can not help but joke that you've clearly no sense for genuine interaction ^^

    I've seen enough, have a good day.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. .
    A game that is not focused around competitive play and does not have stakes in e-sports should not be focused around the top 1%, 5% or even 20% of performing players in PvE, PvP might be a different story since there is a push towards e-sports/competitive.

    WoW also never was about competitive integrity in PvE and for a long time not in PvP, despite some very vocal people here and on Youtube, i also doubt most players play WoW for that. (Seeing preach malding that Ion doesn't care about that so he can have fun with WClogs rankings was pretty amusing though.)
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.
    I guess you are a youngster or never went through any real hardship yet or just have not much going on in your life, this is not to mock you or most younger players (i mean it is a good thing at its core and i hope more people could have more free time/less burdens), but please try to be understanding that for many people investing time to get better at a videogame is not exactly at the top of their priority list in life.

    Because let's not kid ourselves here okay? Trying to get better at WoW or similar complex video games takes time, for 99% of us that aren't some gamer-prodigy (even though way too many people think that they are) even quite a bit of time, time many of us just don't have and rather spend playing and having fun.
    Last edited by TheLucky1; 2020-10-03 at 01:52 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    I see the argument brought up a lot that content should be based around the worst of the playerbase. Those who will never move past heroic dungeons or unrated battlegrounds and I have to ask why?

    Is the game better when you do 1/10 of another players output from willfully not knowing how your rotation should work or how your choices effect it?

    Is pvp better when due to a lack of understanding you find yourself facing off against "unkillable" classes like DH,Druids, and disc priests?

    There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.
    What you refer to as "pushing their characters to the limit" usually boils down to getting higher number through grinding for better gear. Mythic raiding is 40% about skills, 60% about your gear, and 50% of the playerbase has historically been locked out of mythic raiding by the simple reason that they don't have the time to acquire the gear and keep up with weekly powerups.

    Imagine implementing a system where skills count 90%, like challenge modes in MoP and WoD.
    Huh, guess most people don't like pushing their characters to the limit through skills.
    Had this been a thing for raids as well you'd see even lower participation.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    What you refer to as "pushing their characters to the limit" usually boils down to getting higher number through grinding for better gear. Mythic raiding is 40% about skills, 60% about your gear, and 50% of the playerbase has historically been locked out of mythic raiding by the simple reason that they don't have the time to acquire the gear and keep up with weekly powerups.

    Imagine implementing a system where skills count 90%, like challenge modes in MoP and WoD.
    Huh, guess most people don't like pushing their characters to the limit through skills.
    Had this been a thing for raids as well you'd see even lower participation.
    Idk, I freaking loved challange mode and mage tower.
    Alot of people that never raided before did this with me even, because it was something to just do and try.
    I'd love seeing HC challange modes back, in a timewalking/weekly event fashion.

    I agree with you on the other points though. Progression is more time consuming, than "hard".

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    I guess you are a youngster or never went through any real hardship yet or just have not much going on in your life, this is not to mock you or most younger players (i mean it is a good thing at its core and i hope more people could have more free time/less burdens), but please try to be understanding that for many people investing time to get better at a videogame is not exactly at the top of their priority list in live.

    Because let's not kid ourselves here okay? Trying to get better at WoW or similar complex video games takes time, for 99% of us that aren't some gamer-prodigy (even though way too many people think that they are) even quite a bit of time, time many of us just don't have and rather spend playing and having fun.
    It doesn't have much to do with youth or having to go through hardship. Personally, doing poorly at anything is anathema to me. Particularly in a group setting, where my poor performance has an impact on other people, I view it as simple courtesy to put in some effort.
    Shahaad , Kevkul
    <Magdalena's pet>

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    What you refer to as "pushing their characters to the limit" usually boils down to getting higher number through grinding for better gear. Mythic raiding is 40% about skills, 60% about your gear, and 50% of the playerbase has historically been locked out of mythic raiding by the simple reason that they don't have the time to acquire the gear and keep up with weekly powerups.

    Imagine implementing a system where skills count 90%, like challenge modes in MoP and WoD.
    Huh, guess most people don't like pushing their characters to the limit through skills.
    Had this been a thing for raids as well you'd see even lower participation.
    I don't agree with those numbers, at all.

    The average player sucks, he really, really does.
    As an example since it is hard to determine the skill level of your average player in WoW i would like to point at League of Legends.

    League is a hyper competitive moba where you would even think it would draw more "competitive-minded" players to it but the truth is that the skill average/median in that game sits at Silver 3-4.

    To be quite frank and since i have no idea if you ever played that game: to someone who has put a slight amount of time into improving and is not a complete freshman to the game, Silver 3-4 is bad... really, really bad, players there often can't even follow basic mechanics and builds there but still think they are the next faker (e-sport prodigy) and go full dunning-kruger effect.

    Since WoW draws in a more relaxed playerbase i would argue it is probably even worse, you just don't really interact with these players and they also usually just go about their day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahad View Post
    It doesn't have much to do with youth or having to go through hardship. Personally, doing poorly at anything is anathema to me. Particularly in a group setting, where my poor performance has an impact on other people, I view it as simple courtesy to put in some effort.
    Sorry but let's be realistic here, how many people do you think if we talk about the average WoW player even have that thought process or are even that invested into the game? Most don't even do group content aside from lfr/lfd.
    You have over 2.5k posts on a fan site you are part of for over 7 years now, you're more invested into this game than most of its population for sure.

    Be careful and don't get deceived, this forum is an echo chamber for the more invested players after all.

  9. #109
    The Patient vincink's Avatar
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    When I first played WoW, I started with an Orc. I managed to get as far as Sen’jin Village where I died repeatedly to hostile mobs. I had no idea what I was doing; the concept of an MMO was completely new to me.

    Was I 'bad at the game'? Yes.

    Did I have fun? Yes. Because I was entranced by the world, the story, and the massively multiplayer element.

  10. #110
    I've been playing since launch. 15 long years. And I am fucking terrible at this game. I roll alts constantly to the point that I practically never do the content on release because I'm still doing last patch content. I don't raid and seldom do any PVP that isn't a BG. I mostly just like to explore the game world, do casual as fuck content and go fishing. After returning to the game about 3 weeks ago and leveling up, my ilvl is 430, I just unlocked and started Nazjatar and Mechagon, and BfA flying is a long way away.

    I fucking suck at this game and I can still have fun. I get my pleasure exploring. Looking around. Finding beautiful spots. Doing fun quests, having good interactions with people and seeing a story happen. I don't care about cutting edge content or having the best gear. I care about an immersive experience that sucks me in.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by LordTakeo View Post
    Idk, I freaking loved challange mode and mage tower.
    Alot of people that never raided before did this with me even, because it was something to just do and try.
    I'd love seeing HC challange modes back, in a timewalking/weekly event fashion.

    I agree with you on the other points though. Progression is more time consuming, than "hard".
    I absolutely loved them myself, and I'd love to see iterations of them again, both timed and non-timed, 5m and raids. Black Temple and Ulduar is fun, but the rewards needs to be there still to get people engaged.
    M+ is almost the same, but will always be geargated no matter how good you are, and that's not for me.

  12. #112
    Don’t download a dps meter and don’t look at warcraft logs. And you will never know if you are ”Bad” at the game. Ignorance is bliss.

  13. #113
    Define bad OP. I see my self as bad in the eyes of good players, but I also see myself performing better than most people I see in random 5 mans or whatever. I can say run island mythics for dublon for a little bit and not find 1 player as good as my self, but if I tried to join something serious Id probably not even break top 10 damage or whatever lol...Cant blame that on feral druid :P
    Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/djuntas ARPG - RTS - MMO

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    Don’t download a dps meter and don’t look at warcraft logs. And you will never know if you are ”Bad” at the game. Ignorance is bliss.
    Oh you will know if you are bad, only that other people will let you know instead of your own addons.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Oh you will know if you are bad, only that other people will let you know instead of your own addons.
    That's what the ignore list is for.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    I see the argument brought up a lot that content should be based around the worst of the playerbase. Those who will never move past heroic dungeons or unrated battlegrounds and I have to ask why?

    Is the game better when you do 1/10 of another players output from willfully not knowing how your rotation should work or how your choices effect it?

    Is pvp better when due to a lack of understanding you find yourself facing off against "unkillable" classes like DH,Druids, and disc priests?

    There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.
    Have you ever heard about the Anime "One Punch Man"? If you watch the anime you honestly get the answer for your question. And to answer your question very short: Yes it is! One Punch Man shows exactly that. That strenght and being the best might not be the most achievable goal after all. The characters in this anime that enjoy their journey the most are often the ones who are not the best, but the ones with a lot of room for improvement.

    This is why I personally started to not read into the best strategies anymore or look at forums to learn the "Meta" for certain games. Because in the end I enjoy games a lot more if I am figuring out what to do by myself.

    And if I already know what the best tactic is for a game I often immediatly loose interest, because there is no "magic" in finding out anymore.

    Everyone has a different challange they want to face. There is even a player in WoW who wants to have a max level "neutral" character. This is also a different kind of challenge. There are many people who don't necessarily want to the good or the best. They simply want to feel challenged or simply collect stuff.
    Last edited by TheTaurenChieftain; 2020-10-07 at 10:52 AM.

  17. #117
    It was fun in vanilla to be bad at the game, because it was all new and failing was part of the learning curve. Now it just feels inefficient.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    I see the argument brought up a lot that content should be based around the worst of the playerbase. Those who will never move past heroic dungeons or unrated battlegrounds and I have to ask why?

    Is the game better when you do 1/10 of another players output from willfully not knowing how your rotation should work or how your choices effect it?

    Is pvp better when due to a lack of understanding you find yourself facing off against "unkillable" classes like DH,Druids, and disc priests?

    There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.
    Every person has their own standards. Not all people care about hitting the content difficulty ceiling.

    Take me for example.
    All I want to do in this game is be great at casual PVP like 1v1, warmode and random bgs, as well as clear heroic raids and maybe a couple of bosses in mythic raids.

    I quite literally don't give a crap about getting a high rating in arena nor about getting Cutting Edge. Does that mean I'm bad at the game? I guess, if you're looking from the perspective of an elitist player, but as long as I'm hitting my own goals that I set for myself, I don't see how I'm bad at the game.

    Of course other people do care about delving into the most difficult game content, and that's totally fine. That doesn't mean they are better players, that just means they are better motivated to chase that content.
    Last edited by The Butt Witch; 2020-10-08 at 03:22 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    I see the argument brought up a lot that content should be based around the worst of the playerbase. Those who will never move past heroic dungeons or unrated battlegrounds and I have to ask why?

    Is the game better when you do 1/10 of another players output from willfully not knowing how your rotation should work or how your choices effect it?

    Is pvp better when due to a lack of understanding you find yourself facing off against "unkillable" classes like DH,Druids, and disc priests?

    There seems to be a real push and even a bit of a rebuking that the game shouldn't be focused around those who push their characters to the limit to get the highest performance out of their class. Without trying to judge those players I would honestly like to know what the draw is to that kind of mindset because I can't wrap my head around it. I always assumes that no matter what it is people do they will naturally want to perform well at it.
    Its fun to enjoy the game while having a healthy real life. Your mindset was correct back in 2005-7, now is just cringe.
    Zul'Jin died for our sins.
    --
    My Loa are smiling at me infidel. can you say the same?

  20. #120
    It is like traffic regulations - made so even the dumbest person can drive a car without crashing constantly. Do you think this limits only f1 drivers? More like all others but the dumbest.

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