9.0 General Discussion

[Lahis]

I can't wait until there's an ocean of whining about the expansion's systems a month after release. Gonna be great.

Sure, the systems are terrible.

But atleast they aren't also buggy and broken.

[Nyel]

After having played for some time in beta now, one thing for me has become pretty obvious: the zones, especially Revendreth, have been developed with active flying in their mind.

Especially Revendreth with all its mountaintop castles and hills and peaks and whatnot is really difficult to traverse on a ground mount, it became tedious very quickly (I choose Venthyr). The zone is so huge and full of altitudes, it’s really designed around flying. No idea how you’ll deal with this for 6-12 months until flying is unlocked, it will be a major downside for me to not be able to fly there. This wasn’t as obvious recognizable in BfA as it’s been in Shadowlands imho.

[Dracullus]

After having played for some time in beta now, one thing for me has become pretty obvious: the zones, especially Revendreth, have been developed with active flying in their mind.

Especially Revendreth with all its mountaintop castles and hills and peaks and whatnot is really difficult to traverse on a ground mount, it became tedious very quickly (I choose Venthyr). The zone is so huge and full of altitudes, it’s really designed around flying. No idea how you’ll deal with this for 6-12 months until flying is unlocked, it will be a major downside for me to not be able to fly there. This wasn’t as obvious recognizable in BfA as it’s been in Shadowlands imho.

Pff, I survived year with Dazal'Alor as my capital. Always some zone (or more if we're unlucky) is pain in the ass without flying.

[Sondrelk]

After having played for some time in beta now, one thing for me has become pretty obvious: the zones, especially Revendreth, have been developed with active flying in their mind.

Especially Revendreth with all its mountaintop castles and hills and peaks and whatnot is really difficult to traverse on a ground mount, it became tedious very quickly (I choose Venthyr). The zone is so huge and full of altitudes, it’s really designed around flying. No idea how you’ll deal with this for 6-12 months until flying is unlocked, it will be a major downside for me to not be able to fly there. This wasn’t as obvious recognizable in BfA as it’s been in Shadowlands imho.

Sounds to me more like it is designed without flying in mind, therefore placing obstacles in your way that will be trivial once you get flying.

Not to mention that creating areas that are not available creates spaces that can be unique secrets. Last I checked if you choose Venthyr you get a teleport network that has a chance ot teleport you to inaccesible areas.

[Edward Wu]

Sure, the systems are terrible.

But atleast they aren't also buggy and broken.

The worst thing about the Covenant system is that it's working as intended.

[Dracullus]

The worst thing about the Covenant system is that it's working as intended.

What is bad about covenants beside restriction to change them? (ok, week cooldown for changing is also bad, but it's same category)

[Nyel]

Sounds to me more like it is designed without flying in mind, therefore placing obstacles in your way that will be trivial once you get flying.

Not to mention that creating areas that are not available creates spaces that can be unique secrets. Last I checked if you choose Venthyr you get a teleport network that has a chance ot teleport you to inaccesible areas.

It just doesn’t feel good though. I am up for secrets and that stuff and I know that Venthyr players get that additional transporting system via the mirrors, but imagine you’re not Venthyr. This zone ist just a pita to quest in, there’s so many places you have to go to the top and need to use several elevators and stairs and whatever, just to be sent to the other part of the zone where you have to climb up another mountain.

Don’t get me wrong, Revendreth is most likely the most impressive zone Blizzard has designed yet, it’s looking fantastic and the NPCs are great, but getting from place to place there is just... unfun.

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What is bad about covenants beside restriction to change them? (ok, week cooldown for changing is also bad, but it's same category)

Too much is crammed into Covenants. I wouldn’t mind if it would be Covenants for cosmetics and that one skill, but it’s Soulbinds and Conduits and the whole character progression of Shadowlands is intertwined with your Covenant choice... it’s just system overload within one single system.

[Sondrelk]

It just doesn’t feel good though. I am up for secrets and that stuff and I know that Venthyr players get that additional transporting system via the mirrors, but imagine you’re not Venthyr. This zone ist just a pita to quest in, there’s so many places you have to go to the top and need to use several elevators and stairs and whatever, just to be sent to the other part of the zone where you have to climb up another mountain.

Don’t get me wrong, Revendreth is most likely the most impressive zone Blizzard has designed yet, it’s looking fantastic and the NPCs are great, but getting from place to place there is just... unfun.

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Too much is crammed into Covenants. I wouldn’t mind if it would be Covenants for cosmetics and that one skill, but it’s Soulbinds and Conduits and the whole character progression of Shadowlands is intertwined with your Covenant choice... it’s just system overload within one single system.

I guess it depends on the player. some actual verticality sounds awesome to me, Blizzard has been far too scared to do anything but flat areas for questing.
Will thoroughly enjoy doing quest objectives and then organically using goblin gliders or slowfall effects unlike the past cases of having to search them out.

[Nyel]

I guess it depends on the player. some actual verticality sounds awesome to me, Blizzard has been far too scared to do anything but flat areas for questing.
Will thoroughly enjoy doing quest objectives and then organically using goblin gliders or slowfall effects unlike the past cases of having to search them out.

Getting down isn’t the problem, getting up is.

I’m curious, have you beta access and tried playing in Revendreth? (Not trying to disrespect your opinion with this question)

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Getting down isn’t the problem, getting up is.

I’m curious, have you beta access and tried playing in Revendreth? (Not trying to disrespect your opinion with this question)

Yeah that's Blizz's problem with verticality right now. The zones look cool with all those towers and cliffs everywhere, but getting around (and especially back up, looking at you Azsuna) can be a real pain if you're not the right class/covenant (See: Demon Hunter, Venthyr).

[Dracullus]

Too much is crammed into Covenants. I wouldn’t mind if it would be Covenants for cosmetics and that one skill, but it’s Soulbinds and Conduits and the whole character progression of Shadowlands is intertwined with your Covenant choice... it’s just system overload within one single system.

Too much? It's literally just new artifact weapon. Renown is AP (but without grind), new skill is your active ability from artifact, conduits are relics, soulbinds your passive artifact tree. If SL max level progression is too much for you, I don't know what to say.

Rest stuff about Covenants are just side things to do on free time.

[Sondrelk]

Getting down isn’t the problem, getting up is.

I’m curious, have you beta access and tried playing in Revendreth? (Not trying to disrespect your opinion with this question)

I have not, so it could be a problem once I actually play it, though on the whole I feel that kind of gameplay speaks ot me anyways. In a choice between flat areas or a tower I would usually choose the tower.

Considering mt ideal kind of zone is exactly how you describe Revendreth I think I am good.

[gcsmith]

Having got into beta this week and started playing around with the covenant system I have to say the change I would make is allow you to choose any one covenant for the abilities and freely switch (though since soulbinds modify covenant abilities, you could only choose a soulbind of the covenant you chose) and then I would lock your campaign choice until you finish it.

[Eurhetemec]

Thinking about content patches... I don't know how they could add more zones to the Shadowlands. Everything right there seems to be perfectly harmonized for the four zones and Covenants we already have, plus The Maw. No idea how they could fit another zone into the Shadowlands directly.

Blizzard themselves literally said it would be easy for them to add new zones. So... your impression is your impression. I don't think anyone is expecting new Covenants.

Which is complete nonsense for anyone that actually played the game since the beginning, since this kind of RPG (which it really isn't) was never part of the game to begin with. It's the introduction of a some kind of pseudo RPG features, while they still ignore all other, way more important classical RPG features.

This is revisionist nonsense, frankly. WoW at launch was almost as much of an RPG as EQ.

[Chickat]

I mean, the five zones are pretty generalized, but I still could see them easily adding one still. The current four themes are: Wilds, Purgatory, Paradise and War. Could easily add another generalized realm. Maybe the broker realm or a realm about magic. Could be anything, the possibilities are endless.

An elemental realm. Where all elements go when they die. Could be a 4 corners zone with 4 unique themes and a spirit element in the center to balance them out or something. Idk.

[Cosmic Janitor]

This is revisionist nonsense, frankly. WoW at launch was almost as much of an RPG as EQ.

Oh please. You could change your talents for money, which admittedly was more valuable than today, but the cost would also go down. So if you didn't change it twice a day you would hardly ever reach the cap of 50g. Also Blizzard never locked your character progression behind exclusive factions, that flat out didn't exist until BC to begin with, with aldor and scryer and even then that only ment a few crafting recipes and an enchant. Well unless you count the centaur factions that didn't matter at all, but I hope even you can agree that this would be a tad bid dishonest. The one thing that comes even remotely close were racial skills for priests, which were the only ones among the 9 classes that had such a feature and it caused them constant headache that prompted them to remove it.

The only one revising history is you and your delusional crowd that swallowed Ion's bullshit about RPG elements. Choice is but one of these elements and the choice presented here is hardly the only choice one should have in an RPG. Also it can't be said enough that WoW has always been a themepark, especially once they commited to PvP and PvE as different endgame models. Not to mention that they even doubled down on those after they split PvE/P into large and small group variants each and the solo open world version. If Blizzard wants to bring back RPG elements they could do alot of things like
... reintroducing more classical stats,
... actually allow players to have PERSISTENT character progression instead of resetting it all 2 years,
... stop deactivating items for no reason other than to force people to get new ones of the latest "season",
... actually make crafting good and allow it to be part of the endgame again,
... stop disabling crafted items at certain levels like they did with alchemy,
... allow players some actual agency in the story,
... etc.

Dying on this RPG-hill only because Ion said so and you have deluded yourself that it makes you special is just utterly laughable. They chose the easiest , yet most detrimental way for the majority of the playerbase that will inadvertedly hamstrung people's enjoyment and sabotages many of the good aspects about covenants. They couldn't even get their writers to cough up a good reason for the covenant feuds when everyone is forced to help one another as a primary means of keeping the shadowlands running. The abilities are also hardly unique enough in theme that they couldn't be restyled to fit the other covenants. Who in their right mind wants to be locked into an unfun ability for the 5 minutes of RPG that WoW offers every now and then when the rest of your time is spend actually just playing your class in some kind of combat scenario? I would make changing covenants even harder tbh, but I also wouldn't force people into using a shitty ability that does nothing for a spec.

[Sondrelk]

Dying on this RPG-hill only because Ion said so and you have deluded yourself that it makes you special is just utterly laughable. They chose the easiest , yet most detrimental way for the majority of the playerbase that will inadvertedly hamstrung people's enjoyment and sabotages many of the good aspects about covenants. They couldn't even get their writers to cough up a good reason for the covenant feuds when everyone is forced to help one another as a primary means of keeping the shadowlands running. The abilities are also hardly unique enough in theme that they couldn't be restyled to fit the other covenants. Who in their right mind wants to be locked into an unfun ability for the 5 minutes of RPG that WoW offers every now and then when the rest of your time is spend actually just playing your class in some kind of combat scenario? I would make changing covenants even harder tbh, but I also wouldn't force people into using a shitty ability that does nothing for a spec.

Or contrarily, people want the return of RPG elements because the game has become heavily neutered and instance focused. The game is slowly regainining reasons to actually go outside and use the utility abilities we are given by professions, toys and most importantly classes.

The game has always been in a eternal tug-of-war between those that want the game to be convenient and those who want the game to be more gameplay focused.
The more covenient the game becomes the less room for growth there is. There is no reason for Blizzard to invent fun ways to traverse a zone or fun secrets to find if the game doesnt given actually incentivize you to go and find them.

Considere for a moment the removal of flying. It made the game less convenient and made it more difficult for players that just want the game to be an endless stream of raids, but it did mean that players finally have a reason to interract with their enviroment. Demon Hunters having a permanent glide and doublejump now meant they could experience the game differently from how a Mage would. This is something the game was sorely lacking.

The problem with making covenants meaningless from a throughout standpoint is that you would remove the point of specializing. There is no point for me to make my MM hunter more bursty to capitalize on its strengths, nor focusing on AoE or ST. The obvious option is to choose the best one at all times.
Convenience is the death of an RPG, because suddenly the game ceases to be an open world of exploration and wonder in which you carve out your niche, but instead becomes a mindless checklist of errands and chores.

And while some convenience is good at certain parts there is no denying that WoW has leaned far too heavily into sacrificing gameplay for the sake of it.



tl;dr: Covenants are a return to RPG elements that is signifying a step towards making the game better as a whole, as opposed to just giving the players everything because putting effort into a game is too hard.

[Nyel]

Too much? It's literally just new artifact weapon. Renown is AP (but without grind), new skill is your active ability from artifact, conduits are relics, soulbinds your passive artifact tree. If SL max level progression is too much for you, I don't know what to say.

Rest stuff about Covenants are just side things to do on free time.

Yes, too much. You really cannot compare it to artifact weapons because every spec had its artifact weapon. This is not the case with Covenants and if you play more than one spec this can become very problematic, especially when you’re not playing a pure DPS spec, but a healer/DPS or even a hybrid that can fill every role. Figuring out the Covenant that fits more than one playstyle when you have to factor in not only the Covenant skill but Soulbinds as well is really... a thing. Too much (e.g. all) of your character progression depends on that choice. I mean this is the single biggest issue beta players have with Shadowlands, it’s not just me.

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Yeah that's Blizz's problem with verticality right now. The zones look cool with all those towers and cliffs everywhere, but getting around (and especially back up, looking at you Azsuna) can be a real pain if you're not the right class/covenant (See: Demon Hunter, Venthyr).

Yeah and Revendreth is like Azsuna but twice the altitude and verticality. It’s... a choice. As I said, the zone itself is fantastic, but traveling without flying mounts is incredibly annoying.

[Cosmic Janitor]

tl;dr: Covenants are a return to RPG elements that is signifying a step towards making the game better as a whole, as opposed to just giving the players everything because putting effort into a game is too hard.

They really are not. They are a thin veneer of RPG elements and certainly won't offer any actual tangential "return to RPG" mechanics and gameplay. They are a single feature that Ion labeled RPG mechanics because he felt he could only justify investing into actual RPG stuff like story if he somehow tied it to player power. But we can just agree do disagree I can't be arsed to go on pages and pages of fruitless internet crusade like some other people here.

On another note: The end of Maldraxxus is still so weird. You get send back to Maldraxxus after getting Andros Morgraine, you challenge Kyvas (?), kinda get overrun, then Draka pulls only your ass out of the fight (at least their scripting makes it look like that), then you open the door to the seat of the Primus and suddenly it's all over. The fighting stopped despite everyone just barely holding off the hordes of constructs a second earlier, Morgraine is suddenly also back and everyone is chilling in the seat of the Primus followed by a massive info dump from the Primus. Such an abbrupt ending to the whole story. I thought maybe something was missing originally, but it seems like this is the version they intend to go with; strange.

[TomatoBisque]

Too much? It's literally just new artifact weapon. Renown is AP (but without grind), new skill is your active ability from artifact, conduits are relics, soulbinds your passive artifact tree. If SL max level progression is too much for you, I don't know what to say.

Rest stuff about Covenants are just side things to do on free time.

Quoting this for emphasis. Conduits and Soulbinds don't seem complicated at all.