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  1. #81
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    I admit Blizzard has gotten slightly better at shaping up their villains. You still have the 100% bad guys like Garrosh and Deathwing, but we went from the typical enemy to more conflicted ones. Sargeras had this great design to purge the universe of corruption, N'zoth hints at him saving the world (might be a lie, but often old god speeches are actually pretty reliable).

    However, even if their plan has some nobility to it, it usually involves our annihilation, so they cannot really be good guys.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Balrog View Post
    Have you met Xe'ra?
    Xera was ok. Illidan was a degenerate. He was a living fel time bomb. The entire concept behind demon hunters is that they eventually fail to control their demonic powers. Many of them also openly defected to the Legion.

    Xera only did what made the most sense. Here is a demon-corrupted night elf who could be so much more if he was cleansed by the light. He struggled against it, but I'm sure any demon-corrupted minion would and sometimes people don't know what's best for them. Being fel-corrupted isn't a lifestyle choice that beings of the light need to respect. In fact if I was Xera I would've been like, get that thing off of this ship.

    The entire "the light can also be evil" thing they're trying to shoehorn in is dumb. There is just nothing about the concept of the light that seems evil to me. There is nothing you could say that would make me think of the light as evil and shadow as good. Because the entire idea behind the light is to be good, and the idea behind shadow is to be bad. At the same time they keep showing void-corrupted people being a threat, like Alleria going to the Sunwell and releasing some void energy. Well stupid choice to become corrupted by the void. And I hope Turalyon ends up killing her.
    Last edited by sunnycutie; 2020-10-04 at 08:57 AM.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Balrog View Post
    Have you met Xe'ra?
    The Naaru are not the Light. They are a race of sentient beings with close ties to the Light. Saying the Light is bad because a Naaru did bad things is about as moronic as saying Life is bad because some random Night Elf druid did something bad.

    Edit: Also what the poster above me said.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    What is good and evil is based on who's interpreting it.
    That statement implies that wanton cruelty against children, sexual and emotional abuse for self-gratification and manipulating others into self-hatred and suicide out of envy are equally good and evil, depending on the viewpoint. I hope you do not actually believe that.

    I know, I brought up extreme examples, but only to demonstrate how absurd moral relativism actually is.

    Sure, in many cases we can argue about what is good and evil, and come to different, even contradictory conclusions. But that doesn't mean that there is no objective Good and Evil, just that we cannot easily make infallible moral judgments.

    The Light in Warcraft is not perfect, or at least those championing its cause (Lightforged Crusaders, Scarlet Crusaders, Xe'ra) aren't. But it is so obvious that it is far more aligned with objective Goodness than the Void which celebrates insanity, degeneration, fear and corruption that any claim of "they are equally good and evil" is simply absurd. At that point we can stop using the word "Evil " altogether since it has lost any meaning, and we have arrived at moral nihilism.
    Last edited by iscalio; 2020-10-04 at 09:24 AM.

  5. #85
    Void ain't good. Light ain't good. There is no good only balance. To much of anything drives you mad. Illidan didn't accept the light because it would be history repeating itself. He had already traded several times to get more power. This time, he basically said that he believed in himself and his own power. Was it the best choice? Who knows. It was a choice, and that's all there is to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timester View Post
    Archbishop Benedictus video.

    Clearly the words of a "good" guy.
    Sounds like any enemy ever? Doesn't mean it's a bad guy. We sound the same. Have you listened to some of the dialogue some of our faction leaders speak? It's pretty much the same. Threatening and sounding menacing is something everyone does who want something by force.

    But hey, he can be the bad guy anyway. They also sound like that :P
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  6. #86
    Dreadlord Krothar's Avatar
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    I doubt it. I imagine its more to the idea of going too far to either side is bad.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    Xera was ok.
    Somebody obviously and blatantly ignoring reality and forcing their own vision on others with no regard to their life and goals is quite certainly not "ok". She didn't do it for any of the reasons you list, she did it because in her mind Illidan was the chosen one and she had already written up her Light Illidan + Xe'ra fanfic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oishi View Post
    Blind devout faith and servitude is not always ideal and you need a little crazy
    That's one hell of an understatement. Blind, unquestioning faith has led to most of the biggest atrocities human history knows of, and has a piss-poor record on leading to anything good, other than the realisation that blind faith is not.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Somebody obviously and blatantly ignoring reality and forcing their own vision on others with no regard to their life and goals is quite certainly not "ok". She didn't do it for any of the reasons you list, she did it because in her mind Illidan was the chosen one and she had already written up her Light Illidan + Xe'ra fanfic.
    He was a fel-corrupted zit.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    He was a fel-corrupted zit.
    Which has what exactly to do with Xe'ra's own morally questionable behaviour?

  10. #90
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iscalio View Post
    That statement implies that wanton cruelty against children, sexual and emotional abuse for self-gratification and manipulating others into self-hatred and suicide out of envy are equally good and evil, depending on the viewpoint. I hope you do not actually believe that.

    I know, I brought up extreme examples, but only to demonstrate how absurd moral relativism actually is.

    Sure, in many cases we can argue about what is good and evil, and come to different, even contradictory conclusions. But that doesn't mean that there is no objective Good and Evil, just that we cannot easily make infallible moral judgments.

    The Light in Warcraft is not perfect, or at least those championing its cause (Lightforged Crusaders, Scarlet Crusaders, Xe'ra) aren't. But it is so obvious that it is far more aligned with objective Goodness than the Void which celebrates insanity, degeneration, fear and corruption that any claim of "they are equally good and evil" is simply absurd. At that point we can stop using the word "Evil " altogether since it has lost any meaning, and we have arrived at moral nihilism.
    Well, there is of course a chance that the person or 'entity' in this case I suppose, have flawed views. A serial killer can have his own definition of right and wrong. Maybe he thinks he's doing something right when he kills people.

    Though in this case, the Void is a creation of Blizzard, so it's they who ultimately decides if something is good, evil, or something else / in-between.

    But yeah, I do get your point.
    Hi

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Which has what exactly to do with Xe'ra's own morally questionable behaviour?
    There is nothing morally questionable about it. Is it morally questionable when we kill demons?

  12. #92
    The void is not good. While as a primal force is may be neutral, the Void Lords and their minions are creatures of hunger and domination for the most part.

    But that does not mean they think of themselves as evil. N'Zoth may well have been convinced he was the good guy. He was mostly trying to convert us, after all. To him, converting us likely counts as saving us, especially as he knows there are other forces that seek our deaths.

    Does that actually make him good? No it doesn't. Even the Lich King didn't think of himself as the bad guy. But the truth is, the vision the Old Gods have for us, is a life so alien and monstrous to us, that it would destroy most of what and who we are. We're not compatible with the an existence of serving the glory of a narcissistic Old God.

    So yeah. N'Zoth may see himself as being kind in offering us power and survival, if we but accept his salvation. But that doesn't mean he's not a corruptive parasite that seeks to consume our world and enslave its inhabitants. That may not be evil to N'Zoth, as he was born for this purpose. He is just following his natural instincts, and as any being, gains satisfaction from satisfying his nature and urges. But it's not "Good" for anyone but the Void and those compatible with its nature. The nature of the creatures of the void are a defiance to what most of us defy as good for us. To us, they are clearly the bad guys.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    Xera was ok. Illidan was a degenerate. He was a living fel time bomb. The entire concept behind demon hunters is that they eventually fail to control their demonic powers. Many of them also openly defected to the Legion.

    Xera only did what made the most sense. Here is a demon-corrupted night elf who could be so much more if he was cleansed by the light. He struggled against it, but I'm sure any demon-corrupted minion would and sometimes people don't know what's best for them. Being fel-corrupted isn't a lifestyle choice that beings of the light need to respect. In fact if I was Xera I would've been like, get that thing off of this ship.

    The entire "the light can also be evil" thing they're trying to shoehorn in is dumb. There is just nothing about the concept of the light that seems evil to me. There is nothing you could say that would make me think of the light as evil and shadow as good. Because the entire idea behind the light is to be good, and the idea behind shadow is to be bad. At the same time they keep showing void-corrupted people being a threat, like Alleria going to the Sunwell and releasing some void energy. Well stupid choice to become corrupted by the void. And I hope Turalyon ends up killing her.
    I respect your opinion, but such view is generally shared by adherents of Abrahamic religions. I don't know if it is your case.

    The idea of "purification" by a linear way of seeing things is contrary to many historical cosmological views our world have experienced.

  14. #94
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Just look at what the goal of each cosmic force is to determine who/what is good and who/what is evil. Relative to our morals, of course.


    The Void Lords, and by that extent the Void, wants to spread and consume everything it can; to bathe the entire universe in shadow: "they seek only to twist reality into a realm of eternal torment, and ultimately to devour all matter and energy and the universe itself."


    To literally everybody else in existence who is not a Void Lord, minion of the Void, or follower of the Void, this is not a good path.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    There is nothing morally questionable about it. Is it morally questionable when we kill demons?
    doesnt matter if hes a demon or not, hes on the side of the good guys. which make her actions wrong and dumb. and she got what she had coming, even turalyon understood
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    doesnt matter if hes a demon or not, hes on the side of the good guys. which make her actions wrong and dumb. and she got what she had coming, even turalyon understood
    for all she knows he merely claims to be on the side of the good guys
    don't forget all the other things Illidan has done while claiming to be a good guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargrik View Post
    I respect your opinion, but such view is generally shared by adherents of Abrahamic religions. I don't know if it is your case.

    The idea of "purification" by a linear way of seeing things is contrary to many historical cosmological views our world have experienced.
    It's a fantasy game. I guess in that sense it is quite close to the abrahamic religions.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    The void is not good. While as a primal force is may be neutral, the Void Lords and their minions are creatures of hunger and domination for the most part.

    But that does not mean they think of themselves as evil. N'Zoth may well have been convinced he was the good guy. He was mostly trying to convert us, after all. To him, converting us likely counts as saving us, especially as he knows there are other forces that seek our deaths.

    Does that actually make him good? No it doesn't. Even the Lich King didn't think of himself as the bad guy. But the truth is, the vision the Old Gods have for us, is a life so alien and monstrous to us, that it would destroy most of what and who we are. We're not compatible with the an existence of serving the glory of a narcissistic Old God.

    So yeah. N'Zoth may see himself as being kind in offering us power and survival, if we but accept his salvation. But that doesn't mean he's not a corruptive parasite that seeks to consume our world and enslave its inhabitants. That may not be evil to N'Zoth, as he was born for this purpose. He is just following his natural instincts, and as any being, gains satisfaction from satisfying his nature and urges. But it's not "Good" for anyone but the Void and those compatible with its nature. The nature of the creatures of the void are a defiance to what most of us defy as good for us. To us, they are clearly the bad guys.
    This is exactly what everyone else is missing, frankly.

    But that does not mean they think of themselves as evil.
    This is what all these pseudo philosophers are missing in this thread. The void and light as powers can be used for good or ill, but the entire premise is predicated on the idea that the elemental forces see THEMSELVES as the sole power in the universe.

    Moral relativism doesn't have a place here, as all the elemental powers are inherently evil if they're vying for domination. This was the same situation in Gorgrond, in which elemental and life powers were vying for dominance. There is always supposed to be this struggle. I wouldn't even go so far as to say there should be balance per se, but something more akin to a see-saw in which all cosmic forces, small to large, pivot and sway.

    The ultimate truth isn't balance, but struggle.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    There is nothing morally questionable about it. Is it morally questionable when we kill demons?
    Is it morally questionable to brainwash your allies? Yes, it is. It is also morally questionable to brainwash anybody else, regardless of who they are.

    For that matter, killing is always morally questionable. The result of that questioning may end up being "we have no other viable option", but is still questionable.

    The victim somehow "deserving" the treatment does not eliminate a need to examine if the perpetrator has issues of their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnagefiend View Post
    This is exactly what everyone else is missing, frankly.



    This is what all these pseudo philosophers are missing in this thread. The void and light as powers can be used for good or ill, but the entire premise is predicated on the idea that the elemental forces see THEMSELVES as the sole power in the universe.

    Moral relativism doesn't have a place here, as all the elemental powers are inherently evil if they're vying for domination. This was the same situation in Gorgrond, in which elemental and life powers were vying for dominance. There is always supposed to be this struggle. I wouldn't even go so far as to say there should be balance per se, but something more akin to a see-saw in which all cosmic forces, small to large, pivot and sway.

    The ultimate truth isn't balance, but struggle.
    That shows the opposite of what you claim, if anything. There is no such thing as "inherently evil" in WarCraft, only mutually exclusive goals. Nor does that mean "no balance". Just no stable balance.

    Also, what's with "elemental forces"? Breakers are Titan creations, i.e. agents of Order, not the Elements. Those are actually fairly peaceful on Draenor. Azeroth is an outlier with its agressive elements. They're also very local, Azeroth's elements are completely unrelated to Draenor's.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Is it morally questionable to brainwash your allies? Yes, it is. It is also morally questionable to brainwash anybody else, regardless of who they are.

    For that matter, killing is always morally questionable. The result of that questioning may end up being "we have no other viable option", but is still questionable.

    The victim somehow "deserving" the treatment does not eliminate a need to examine if the perpetrator has issues of their own.
    Cleansing Illidan of his fel corruption is not brainwashing.

    But instead think of what Illidan did to people like Akama.

    It was clear in TBC that Illidan was driven insane from his loss against Arthas, but because people like him as a character, Blizzard whitewashed everything he did and pulled some "the light are the real bad guys" thing, because that resonates very well with kids who like edgy characters like Illidan.
    Last edited by sunnycutie; 2020-10-04 at 07:14 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by sunnycutie View Post
    for all she knows he merely claims to be on the side of the good guys
    don't forget all the other things Illidan has done while claiming to be a good guy

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    It's a fantasy game. I guess in that sense it is quite close to the abrahamic religions.
    Fantasy tend to draw from various mythologies, specially non-Abrahamic ones. Elves, goblins, trolls etc. are not in the Torah, the New Testament or the Quran, but come from Norse mythology/folklore.

    We also have druids, shamans and (Buddhist-like) monks in the game.
    Last edited by Vargrik; 2020-10-04 at 07:59 PM.

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