Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ...
6
7
8
  1. #141
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,579
    Quote Originally Posted by LuminaL View Post
    I post a comment on a thread that had posts from 3 months ago I get a thread necromancy warning, this guy literally brought back a thread from 2018 and we have a mod JOINING them in conversation? like wtf? this thread was a very bad attempt at pissing off people to begin with.
    Didn't even notice that the thread was from 2018, and the conversation has gone on for a time now. In any case, the thread is still topical enough to be discussed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Do you think this is likely to cause issue if brought up with Tauren representatives, such as how we saw Velen address Tyrande about comparisons to Elune and the Light? Tauren seem a bit more maleable to change their views I think, so I'm not sure if embracing necromancy as long as they're justifying it through shamanism would be entirely uncharacteristic of their leaders. Would Baine, for example, balk at the prospect of returning Cairne to life even if these comparisons were made?
    I doubt the use of a Shaman's ability to restore the (newly) dead would be seen explicitly as Necromancy, in the same way a Spiritwalker's abilities to commune with the dead probably also aren't explicitly taboo, though Spiritwalkers do seem to be somewhat feared or held in awe in Tauren society. That being said, in terms of lore there appears to some element of consent when it comes to being resurrected (as opposed to raised into undeath), and either Cairne would not or did not consent, or else it simply wasn't an option. Given that Cairne was poisoned by Magatha, it may well be that whatever she used to weaken him also prevented him from being returned to life.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #142
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Somewhere where canon still exists
    Posts
    9,476
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    well if you look at it, Tyrande indirectly created the Forsaken and led the Night Elves to their undoing in the long run

    >Tyrande frees Illidan
    >Illidan cracks the Frozen Throne
    >Frozen Throne loses grip on many undead including Sylvanas
    >Sylvanas starts the Forsaken
    >Forsaken burns Teldrassil



    fun fact: if Furion approaches it first he says "our sins have come to haunt us" perhaps it refers to the time the Night Elves ignored the Pandaren's warning against the overuse of arcane?
    Sorry...can't lay it all on Sylvanas, Horde being blood lusting sheep who blindly follow any orders of who is in charge lead to the burning.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I doubt the use of a Shaman's ability to restore the (newly) dead would be seen explicitly as Necromancy, in the same way a Spiritwalker's abilities to commune with the dead probably also aren't explicitly taboo, though Spiritwalkers do seem to be somewhat feared or held in awe in Tauren society. That being said, in terms of lore there appears to some element of consent when it comes to being resurrected (as opposed to raised into undeath), and either Cairne would not or did not consent, or else it simply wasn't an option. Given that Cairne was poisoned by Magatha, it may well be that whatever she used to weaken him also prevented him from being returned to life.
    Recently in the Tauren Heritage chain, Cairne advises Baine before finishing off a powerful malevolent spirit in Thunder Bluff. Cairne cautions Baine to exercise mercy and balance in dealing with the spirit over its destruction. With the Shadowlands in turmoil with souls all being sent to the Maw, recently it seems like Spiritwalkers beckoning souls back would be to their mercy. But in all the time before the machinery of death broke, wouldn't the manipulating of spirits in the cases they have been be detrimental to the spread of anima, the economy of the Shadowlands, and The Purpose? It seems like Spiritwalkers could be in part to blame for some of what is happening in the Shadowlands. The Spiritwalkers didn't help the spirits in their assault on Thunder Bluff, and in fact helped warn about and fight them off so at the very least so they seem to be striving for balance in the material world - it just seems like the spirit world perhaps has been suffering periodically for a very long time because of it.

    We know Baine and Cairne will be speaking in Shadowlands and that a truth will be revealed concerning the Tauren people. I can't help think that perhaps Spiritwalkers and perhaps necromancy in general may play a part in that discussion. Because, for example, if the machinery of death is broken - and I mean for good - this may be the kind of situation where necromancy could be accepted as commonplace. Which is to say, if there is no stopping people from being sent to the Maw in the future even if a temporary measure to perhaps stop the flow of souls to the afterlife, it seems embracing Spiritwalkers and other forms of necromancy may be vital in maintaining order over the material world and spirit world until the machinery of death can be fixed.

  4. #144
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    3,062
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Arthas killed people who were not showing signs of corruption yet. Furbolgs were actively violent, and Tyrande stopped to aid those uncorrupted furbolgs that she could. There are definite parallels to be drawn, but one was preemptive while the other was self-defense.
    is Furbolg's madness infectious? I was thinking why not use your Elune powers to create wisp walls to isolate them, at least they're easier to put on quarantine compared to Stratholme citizens
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    So then what about Reincarnation or resurrecting via Ancestral Spirit through Shamanism? Shouldn't this bypass the 'natural process' of life and death in the eyes of the Tauren? Are these not blasphemous in the eyes of the Earth Mother or at the very least desecrating the bodies and spirits of the departed and their natural process with the afterlife?
    1) Resurrection is a very rare thing in lore and only common in gameplay because of convenience. Reincarnation is not even in lore “for real” we never met a shaman who reincarnated someone.
    2) Its mention in relation to other resurrections that your body has to be VERY recently dead, so its more akin to clinical death and defibrillation then to necromancy.
    3) You come back to LIFE, not undeath.

  6. #146
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Land of human potential (and non-toxic masculinity)
    Posts
    23,003
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    1) Resurrection is a very rare thing in lore and only common in gameplay because of convenience. Reincarnation is not even in lore “for real” we never met a shaman who reincarnated someone.
    2)
    That actually is wrong. The taunka chieftain "reincarnates" multiple taunka in that village in dragonblight after you release him.

  7. #147
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Recently in the Tauren Heritage chain, Cairne advises Baine before finishing off a powerful malevolent spirit in Thunder Bluff. Cairne cautions Baine to exercise mercy and balance in dealing with the spirit over its destruction. With the Shadowlands in turmoil with souls all being sent to the Maw, recently it seems like Spiritwalkers beckoning souls back would be to their mercy. But in all the time before the machinery of death broke, wouldn't the manipulating of spirits in the cases they have been be detrimental to the spread of anima, the economy of the Shadowlands, and The Purpose? It seems like Spiritwalkers could be in part to blame for some of what is happening in the Shadowlands. The Spiritwalkers didn't help the spirits in their assault on Thunder Bluff, and in fact helped warn about and fight them off so at the very least so they seem to be striving for balance in the material world - it just seems like the spirit world perhaps has been suffering periodically for a very long time because of it.

    We know Baine and Cairne will be speaking in Shadowlands and that a truth will be revealed concerning the Tauren people. I can't help think that perhaps Spiritwalkers and perhaps necromancy in general may play a part in that discussion. Because, for example, if the machinery of death is broken - and I mean for good - this may be the kind of situation where necromancy could be accepted as commonplace. Which is to say, if there is no stopping people from being sent to the Maw in the future even if a temporary measure to perhaps stop the flow of souls to the afterlife, it seems embracing Spiritwalkers and other forms of necromancy may be vital in maintaining order over the material world and spirit world until the machinery of death can be fixed.
    I would doubt that the actions of the Spiritwalkers alone could cause such an imbalance, especially in light of the Kyrians themselves sometimes allowing the recently dead to return to their own bodies and return to life in the name of the Purpose. The Purpose is an inscrutable and ineffable thing that can't really be guessed at - and I'm sure if one were to put the question to the stewards of Oribos you'd get an answer back akin to "the abilities of the Spiritwalkers, like the Spiritwalkers themselves, have their place in the Purpose," etc. etc.

    As for the possible conversation between Cairne and Baine, who can really say. You may well be right about that - we could learn that the Tauren got some things wrong, or that some cultural practice of theirs like Shaman Reincarnation or Spiritwalker divination is causing issues. But I think it is more likely that we will eventually stop Zovaal and set right the machinery of Death, while likely also doing some reforms in some of them realms of the Dead like Bastion and Maldraxxus, and definitely Revendreth when we depose the corrupt Sire Denathrius. How that will effect or change the roles of those who have the abilities to restore the dead to life or commune with the realms of the dead is anyone's guess, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    is Furbolg's madness infectious? I was thinking why not use your Elune powers to create wisp walls to isolate them, at least they're easier to put on quarantine compared to Stratholme citizens
    It was always my understanding that the Furbolg didn't go mad because of the Fel directly (though like any being the Fel can certainly effect them), but rather that the collective madness was due to the close tie to the land, and that land subsequently being deeply corrupted by the Fel. Basically put, when the land is tortured by Fel energies the Furbolg can basically feel it (similar to how Druids can) but they don't know how to deal with it, and the pain of it eventually makes them snap and become feral. Actually imbibing or consuming Fel energy certainly doesn't help, either.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    is Furbolg's madness infectious? I was thinking why not use your Elune powers to create wisp walls to isolate them, at least they're easier to put on quarantine compared to Stratholme citizens
    From my understanding, the madness comes from the corruption of the land with fel energy and the furbolg's close connection to the land making them susceptible. I don't think the madness spreads from one furbolg to another like a disease; it spreads through exposure to the corrupt land, similar to how the original plague spread from exposure to tainted grain. Furbolgs could gather pools of fel energy and transfer them around the land, spreading the corruption that way, but satyrs or other malicious beings in Kalimdor could also do that.

  9. #149
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    3,062
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    hen the land is tortured by Fel energies the Furbolg can basically feel it (similar to how Druids can) but they don't know how to deal with it, and the pain of it eventually makes them snap and become feral.
    like the Druids of the Claw in WC3? they also snapped and became feral but somehow Furion's horn calmed them down - perhaps it would have worked on Furbolgs as well? Well, no more Furbolg corruption seemed to have been reported after that
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    like the Druids of the Claw in WC3? they also snapped and became feral but somehow Furion's horn calmed them down - perhaps it would have worked on Furbolgs as well? Well, no more Furbolg corruption seemed to have been reported after that
    The horn was Cenarius' and as such tied to the dream and druidism. It was designed to awaken druids from their slumber in the Emerald Dream and bring them back to their senses. In that respect, it worked on the druids of the claw who were, in essence, sleepwalking as bears, losing themselves to their feral nature. The corruption hadn't spread to the prison, as we had seen uncorrupted furbolgs earlier in that same map seeking help for their injured shaman.

  11. #151
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    like the Druids of the Claw in WC3? they also snapped and became feral but somehow Furion's horn calmed them down - perhaps it would have worked on Furbolgs as well? Well, no more Furbolg corruption seemed to have been reported after that
    The Druids of the Claw were feral because they had slept so long, and been in animal form in the Emerald Dream for so long, that they somehow forgot they were ever Night Elves. The Horn of Cenarius apparently woke them up more fully and brought them back to themselves. Not sure the Horn can do anything for Fel corruption or individuals truly maddened by it, per se; it seems to be able to only direct more natural forces like Druids and Wisps.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    like the Druids of the Claw in WC3? they also snapped and became feral but somehow Furion's horn calmed them down - perhaps it would have worked on Furbolgs as well? Well, no more Furbolg corruption seemed to have been reported after that
    Druids of the claw were not corrupted by the legion. It's more like they forgot themselves and staid beasts. The horn woke them up.
    Furlborgs were often corrupted by corrupted water sources.

  13. #153
    GASP!

    Characters not constrained by arbitary definitions of "good" and "evil", instead just doing what they find in their best interest?

    Must be pre-WoW Warcraft. WoW really ruined Warcraft forever.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •