9.0 General Discussion

[Tyron]

Venthyr is my go to choice for Shadow Priest. The aesthetics are amazing and fit the Shadow Priest fantasy very good. However, the Covenant ability is the worst next to the Kyrian one for PvE (granted, it doesn't destroy my rotation like Kyrian). I want to play Disc Healer in raids and dungeons. For that Venthyr is good. So, do I take the worst Covenant ability for my main spec because it's decent for my second spec and I like the aesthetics? Or what am I obliged to do? This isn't really a meaningful choice, it's a bad one because I can choose class fantasy / aesthetics or player power. Thanks for nothing in the end.

I can relate to that. I want to play necrolords on my hunter because the mail set looks awesome, but everything is pointing that the best ability for hunter right now (unless something changes, and probably will until release) is NF which I hate so much. Why do I have to choose between gameplay and aesthetics? They should let people change the abilities when they want or put a 6h CD or something like that to avoid people changing abilities every 5 min.

[Nyel]

This right here is exactly what makes it a meaningful choice. You are given a choice that requires you to weigh the different aspects of the game, from damage, how the ability looks and feels and the aesthetics of it.
By removing this balancing act you remove a crucial aspect of the decision process, and instead just revert whatever design intent back to the baseline of picking whatever is best at all times.

Not to mention that the idea that it is cruel to ask players to balance aesthetics and playstyle is silly considering that is classes in a nutshell. You get a distinct playstyle with distinct strenghts and weaknesses, not just in what damage they can do but whether they get stealth, immunities, movement speed etc.
Covenants is just asking the players to make a similar choice again on a much, much smaller scale.

But it is not meaningful. I do not have the choice between two aesthetics or two player power abilities. I must choose aesthetics OR player power which doesn't make it a meaningful choice, it makes it a dumb choice, because in an competitive online game you don't choose between something that looks better and something that makes you stronger. Covenant choice at the moment is not if I prefer Cheesburger over Hamburger, it's Cheeseburger or Coke, which eventually leaves one desire unsatisfied (unless it's the rare case where your best Covenant ability matches with your desired aesthetics). I want to choose between Hamburger vs. Cheeseburger and Coke vs. Pepsi. You cannot equalize two inherently different things and then force players to make a choice based on that. That I must factor in my other specs as well just makes it way, way worse, especially when the specs are very different (Holy vs Shadow Priest for example).

And by no means it is a smaller scale choice. It is your entire character progression of Shadowlands. It's the single biggest choice I must make.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, it is. That is specificially the thing Ion mentioned as the ripcord in the original message.

It still isn't what testers criticize about the design of the Covenants.

[Sondrelk]

But it is not meaningful. I do not have the choice between two aesthetics or two player power abilities. I must choose aesthetics OR player power which doesn't make it a meaningful choice, it makes it a dumb choice, because in an competitive online game you don't choose between something that looks better and something that makes you stronger.

That is still a meaningful choice. You have to consider the outcomes and pick one of them. Alternatively since there are 4 covenants total you can look at a compromise where you pick second best in both aestehtics and ability.

It likely isnt going to give you exactly what you want, especially not if you insist on wanting everything.

Supposing the compromise solution is a bust you can either pick the best ability, which will leave you bereft of the aesthetic you want, or you can choose the aesthetic you want, which means you will have to live with a less than idel ability.
Both of these solutions have an equally reasonable chance of making you swap later anyways if whatever ability is best gets changed or nerfed. In which case you might luck out and get both the ability you want and the aesthetic you want.

- - - Updated - - -

It still isn't what testers criticize about the design of the Covenants.

What it sounds like testers wants is for the game to continue to cater to their ability to pick whatever is best at all times, as opposed to learning to compromise like most all other games requires you to, or indeed even classes in WoW do already.

[Nyel]

That is still a meaningful choice. You have to consider the outcomes and pick one of them. Alternatively since there are 4 covenants total you can look at a compromise where you pick second best in both aestehtics and ability.

It likely isnt going to give you exactly what you want, especially not if you insist on wanting everything.

Supposing the compromise solution is a bust you can either pick the best ability, which will leave you bereft of the aesthetic you want, or you can choose the aesthetic you want, which means you will have to live with a less than idel ability.
Both of these solutions have an equally reasonable chance of making you swap later anyways if whatever ability is best gets changed or nerfed. In which case you might luck out and get both the ability you want and the aesthetic you want.

- - - Updated - - -



What it sounds like testers wants is for the game to continue to cater to their ability to pick whatever is best at all times, as opposed to learning to compromise like most all other games requires you to, or indeed even classes in WoW do already.

I think you either don't want to understand the concerns players have with the Covenant system or you're willingly ignoring those concerns / rate them as "player choice" that benefits the RPG aspect of the game or whatever.

Let's say it's a meaningful choice: in the end it's still a choice that doesn't feel good to make because you know that you don't fully like the outcome. What incentive is it to choose between plague or cholera? Because that's exactly what it is. This is by no means good game design where incentives should keep you motivated.

- - - Updated - - -

What it sounds like testers wants is for the game to continue to cater to their ability to pick whatever is best at all times, as opposed to learning to compromise like most all other games requires you to, or indeed even classes in WoW do already.

See, this is what I mean.

Testers don't want to make a choice between aesthetics vs. player power. This choice is dumb and makes no sense at all, because one is no alternative to the other. Player power and aesthetics are two inherently different things and players should never be forced to choose one over the other.

[Sondrelk]

I think you either don't want to understand the concerns players have with the Covenant system or you're willingly ignoring those concerns / rate them as "player choice" that benefits the RPG aspect of the game or whatever.

Let's say it's a meaningful choice: in the end it's still a choice that doesn't feel good to make because you know that you don't fully like the outcome. What incentive is it to choose between plague or cholera? Because that's exactly what it is. This is by no means good game design where incentives should keep you motivated.

- - - Updated - - -



See, this is what I mean.

Testers don't want to make a choice between aesthetics vs. player power. This choice is dumb and makes no sense at all, because one is no alternative to the other. Player power and aesthetics are two inherently different things and players should never be forced to choose one over the other.

I don't fully like the outcome either when I have to choose betwee ntravelling by plane or train when I go on vacation to my parents. If I go by train then I get a relaxing ride for cheap, but I also have to wake up early, whereas if I go by plane then the trip is over quickly and I can wake up later, but it is far more expensive.

Neither is the ideal choice, but it is however a significant choice. Just because neither choice is ideal doesnt mean the choice is invalid.

You are framing choosing a covenant like choosing one or the other evil, whereas you could look at it like choosing something you like by sacrificing the other.



The two are valid choices, because both give you similar things. It isnt like you are given a choice between 20% extra DPS and an endgame campaign. You are asked to choose which flavor of endgame you prefer.

Again, the argument you are presenting is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You want the basis of the entire system to change because you are unhappy with a specific part of it, rather than asking for better balancing, or worse still accepting a defeatist attitude to give credence to your already determined beliefs.

Call it Blizzard being bad at balancing all you like, but you are still arguing from a standpoint of wanting it to fail because that is how you get what you want.

[Nyel]

You are framing choosing a covenant like choosing one or the other evil, whereas you could look at it like choosing something you like by sacrificing the other.

The two are valid choices, because both give you similar things. It isnt like you are given a choice between 20% extra DPS and an endgame campaign. You are asked to choose which flavor of endgame you prefer.

Call it Blizzard being bad at balancing all you like, but you are still arguing from a standpoint of wanting it to fail because that is how you get what you want.

Which is basically choosing between plague or cholera because in no case I am happy with my choice.

I don't want this system to fail, I like the idea behind it. The problem is, that its design is flawed from the beginning by forcing you to choose between two completely different things. We already know they will back paddle, they always did this with their borrowed power systems. So why even keep it the way it is now when they're eventually going to change it within the first year of Shadowlands? The difference is, you upset players the longer you wait "pulling the ripcord" (don't fool yourself, it's going to happen sooner or later).

You're in a very small minority that likes the Covenant system as it is right now. People don't like to choose between two lesser evils while sacrificing a good chunk of their enjoyment / fun. I think we've reached a point where we'll never agree with each other, your perception of the system is just completely different to mine.

[Sondrelk]

Which is basically choosing between plague or cholera because in no case I am happy with my choice.

I don't want this system to fail, I like the idea behind it. The problem is, that its design is flawed from the beginning by forcing you to choose between two completely different things. We already know they will back paddle, they always did this with their borrowed power systems. So why even keep it the way it is now when they're eventually going to change it within the first year of Shadowlands? The difference is, you upset players the longer you wait "pulling the ripcord" (don't fool yourself, it's going to happen sooner or later).

You're in a very small minority that likes the Covenant system as it is right now. People don't like to choose between two lesser evils while sacrificing a good chunk of their enjoyment / fun. I think we've reached a point where we'll never agree with each other, your perception of the system is just completely different to mine.

The question isnt really whether I am in the minority on defending covenants, but what percentage of the playerbase wants the game to be better overall instead of just giving up and disgorging everything at the slightest provocation.

We could have a really in-depth system with well placed RPG elements and systems working in tandem alongside a diverse playerbase that could be focused on more than just picking whatever is best at all times.

Again, this is just like flying. If you insist on only focusing on the negatives then we are not going to get anywhere with new game design. Had Blizzard listened to the people who complained about flying being gone by pointing out the totally real problems of a cliff being in the way of going straight to a dungeon, or how much time they wasted per raid night on having to use ground mounts instead of flying mounts to get there we would never have gotten better ground content at all, and instead we would just be back in MoP with its flat areas for questing and complete absence of any sort of enviromental puzzles.


And again, you are arguing from the viewpoint of the system already having failed, which is based on a subset of players who go on the Beta and playtest these things, which does not take into account the players who just take the game as it comes, or even the RP players who might even actively abstain from a Beta to prevent spoilers. This system is for those people, not for the people who raid all the time.

If Blizzard capitulates on this then we would lose quite a bit of ground on the return to RPG elements in WoW. How in the world could Blizzard try to reintroduce similar elements that incorporate a significant choice or promotes diversity in the playerbase if the players simply refuse to accept compromise?

[ExiHext]

If Blizzard capitulates on this then we would lose quite a bit of ground on the return to RPG elements in WoW. How in the world could Blizzard try to reintroduce similar elements that incorporate a significant choice or promotes diversity in the playerbase if the players simply refuse to accept compromise?

Feels very rpg like that my paladin has to choose either vampires or furries because the mobility options they offer are just too powerful. Sounds good, makes sense./s
But I am sure you guys already discussed that ad nauseam.

[Dracullus]

News from Blizz. TLDR:

1) Yep, Maw is shit. They will put changes in upcoming WEEKS (so rip November release, thank God).
2) There is new system for swaping conduits. You start with 10 points (it's cap as well), every swap cost 1 point, you get 1 point with every daily reset and every new conduit (I know..)
3) Tuning tuning tuning

[Aeluron Lightsong]

News from Blizz. TLDR:

1) Yep, Maw is shit. They will put changes in upcoming WEEKS (so rip November release, thank God).
2) There is new system for swaping conduits. You start with 10 points (it's cap as well), every swap cost 1 point, you get 1 point with every daily reset and every new conduit (I know..)
3) Tuning tuning tuning

I wouldn't presume November is out of the picture yet. I dunno what they are talking about with the Maw though, I assumed they'd just leave it alone as is..nice surprise I guess.

[Sondrelk]

I wouldn't presume November is out of the picture yet. I dunno what they are talking about with the Maw though, I assumed they'd just leave it alone as is..nice surprise I guess.

I would imagine November is unlikely, even with just bugfixing or tuning it isnt exactly the amount of extra time that allows them to change much of anything.
There is also the WoW travellers book which as has been mentioned before, was recently delayed from what was supposed to be one week before the originally planned launch, to a new date that places it conspicously in the last week of November.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, seems like I was right on the money that the conduits would be what would change initially. The way the system is setup currently should also allow quite some flexibility not just on the side of the player, but on the developer side if they want to loosen the restrictions even more.

Still wish they removed the collection aspect of Conduits though. Ideally I imagine you should just be given all of them, except maybe the covenant specific one at the very beginning and then have a system that simply upgrades them all at the same time at specific milestones.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

News from Blizz. TLDR:

1) Yep, Maw is shit. They will put changes in upcoming WEEKS (so rip November release, thank God).
2) There is new system for swaping conduits. You start with 10 points (it's cap as well), every swap cost 1 point, you get 1 point with every daily reset and every new conduit (I know..)
3) Tuning tuning tuning

4. Covenants will be tuned to have contrasting strengths and weaknesses. Ripcorders eat your heart out.

[Eurhetemec]

Venthyr is my go to choice for Shadow Priest. The aesthetics are amazing and fit the Shadow Priest fantasy very good. However, the Covenant ability is the worst next to the Kyrian one for PvE (granted, it doesn't destroy my rotation like Kyrian). I want to play Disc Healer in raids and dungeons. For that Venthyr is good. So, do I take the worst Covenant ability for my main spec because it's decent for my second spec and I like the aesthetics? Or what am I obliged to do? This isn't really a meaningful choice, it's a bad one because I can choose class fantasy / aesthetics or player power. Thanks for nothing in the end.

But people keep saying the solution is to let people swap freely between Covenants. You may or may not have said that (sure looks like you did earlier in the thread), but even if not, loads of other people say that.

To me that doesn't seem like the solution.

The only real solution is to make your ability not suck nuts.

[Nyel]

A new release date in November was never likely. There's too much going on in that month, from US election, to Xbox & PS5 release, to Cyberpunk & AC Valhalla and Thanksgiving, there is just no week where they could release it.

The new developer update is quite telling. Maw? Flawed design. Covenants? Flawed design. Conduits? Flawed design. Thank god they're adressing this issue now and not after launch. But this keeps me wondering if we're seeing Shadowlands this year alltogether. Their upcoming changes seem quite ambitious for the time they have left (~ 7-8 weeks) for the last plausible release date this year.

And this brings me to my next question: what have they done in the last months? Like honestly, they had this feedback for months now and chose to do nothing.

This is an interesting sentence: that will hopefully make your journey into Shadowlands a magical one when the time comes. When the time comes sounds drastically different to "later this year" which they used on Friday.

[gunner_recall]

Interestingly enough, SL being pushed back, even just to November, makes it the longest we've had from expansion release dates.

[TheFirstOnes]

https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...pdate-october/ Oh thank fuck. They're gonna add more to the Maw.

[Baconeggcheese]

But people keep saying the solution is to let people swap freely between Covenants. You may or may not have said that (sure looks like you did earlier in the thread), but even if not, loads of other people say that.

To me that doesn't seem like the solution.

The only real solution is to make your ability not suck nuts.

People want to be able to make choices within these systems separate of the covenant choice, which is not the same as freely swapping between covenants.

Covenants are basically just the reputations of old. Think Aldor / Scryer, there wasn't a massive amount of player power tied up in that single choice and people could pick whichever they identified with more.

The covenant abilities don't need to be tied to that choice, you could pick them separately as they're basically talents. Similarly soul binds don't need to be tied to a specific covenant as we build relationships with all these characters.

If you've ever watched avatar the last airbender, we're basically the avatar in this story except instead of being able to bend all 4 elements at the same time we have to decide which single bender we want to be for no apparent reason.

[Toybox]

https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...pdate-october/ Oh thank fuck. They're gonna add more to the Maw.

Conduit change is great. Should be more than enough flexibility to get the most out of your class for PvE & PvP Happy times. Still not sold on The Maw in the slightest, but we'll see what they do with it.

[Eurhetemec]

People want to be able to make choices within these systems separate of the covenant choice, which is not the same as freely swapping between covenants.

Covenants are basically just the reputations of old. Think Aldor / Scryer, there wasn't a massive amount of player power tied up in that single choice and people could pick whichever they identified with more.

The covenant abilities don't need to be tied to that choice, you could pick them separately as they're basically talents. Similarly soul binds don't need to be tied to a specific covenant as we build relationships with all these characters.

If you've ever watched avatar the last airbender, we're basically the avatar in this story except instead of being able to bend all 4 elements at the same time we have to decide which single bender we want to be for no apparent reason.

"For no apparent reason".

I mean, I think the reason is incredibly obvious and apparent, and pretending it isn't is pretty hilarious. You think every character in Avatar is Aang? Be a very different world. And if you think they're going to change the story so we're the er... Covenant-bender, well, it's a bit late for that.

But the fact remains all mentions of "the ripcord" are referring to being able to CHANGE Covenants, not to have the ability from one Covenant, whilst grinding rep for another.

One thing people seem very concerned about re: Covenants is the aesthetics. My understanding was once you earned the aesthetics, you got to keep them. Is that wrong? If it's not wrong, then a few months into the expansion, complaints about this sort of thing are just going to mostly vanish. You'll earn the cosmetics from the Covenant you want the cosmetic from, then you'll have all of those, then you'll just be using whatever Covenant is optimal mechanically.

Seems like a problem that's going to solve itself.

[TheFirstOnes]

Conduit change is great. Should be more than enough flexibility to get the most out of your class for PvE & PvP Happy times. Still not sold on The Maw in the slightest, but we'll see what they do with it.

I'm curious on what they mean by "World events". Maybe they're going to add in boss events or world quest events, which would be nice to see. I love how Blizzard's focusing on the core issues of the Expansion now, such as Covenant shit and conduits, which is exactly what we needed to see fixed and dealt with. Feels like Blizzard actually gives a shit about the expansion.