What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Soon-TM]

Night elves say hello.

And Forsaken.

[gcsmith]

The Vindicaar is currently in high orbit over Azeroth, at least based on the Lightforged recruitment scenario. Due to its reliance on Argunite following the Argus story-arc, it may well be close to or out of fuel and thus was unable to contribute in the Fourth War.

Except it did contribute, the teleport array is on the Vindicaar, and that was used in many many ways. Also, If it needs argunite, I know several adventurers who have plenty to spare.

[Aucald]

Except it did contribute, the teleport array is on the Vindicaar, and that was used in many many ways. Also, If it needs argunite, I know several adventurers who have plenty to spare.

Pretty such the massive stockpiles of various in-game currencies aren't by any means canon, or else I could personally lead either War Effort to victory in the resource war. Perhaps the Vindicaar can still power its teleporter array despite lacking energy for its weapon systems (which were found on Argus themselves), or being unable to currently maneuver in Azeroth's atmosphere.

[Kithelle]

snip

How many times have they tried "peace" and were stabbed in the back? It's more than just peace...after all they did...after blindly following Sylvanas in all of her bloodshed...to simply forgive the Horde like they were fighting a nerf bat war and not attempting genocide on the Alliance and their at then potential ally.

[VladlTutushkin]

How many times have they tried "peace" and were stabbed in the back? It's more than just peace...after all they did...after blindly following Sylvanas in all of her bloodshed...to simply forgive the Horde like they were fighting a nerf bat war and not attempting genocide on the Alliance and their at then potential ally.

Worst part is that i MIGHT have got that if Anduin said (privately) to other Alliance leaders “Okay, we cant deal with the Horde now, we lack troops and have to act smart to avoid more losses. They are in disarray so we will try and exploit that.” Might have added the “for their own good” part to cater to his choir boy nature. But noooo. Andy just downright TRUSTS horde. He is either naive, retarded or fucken mind controlled into a near-cattle docility.

[Varodoc]

Worst part is that i MIGHT have got that if Anduin said (privately) to other Alliance leaders “Okay, we cant deal with the Horde now, we lack troops and have to act smart to avoid more losses. They are in disarray so we will try and exploit that.” Might have added the “for their own good” part to cater to his choir boy nature. But noooo. Andy just downright TRUSTS horde. He is either naive, retarded or fucken mind controlled into a near-cattle docility.

However he seems to be more hardened in Shadows Rising, as he understands that sometimes the end justifies the means. That is why he allowed Alleria and Turalyon to torture 3 worthless fools who knew about Sylvanas whereabouts, while Jaina, in her naiveness, was against it. Perhaps Anduin will be less "buddy buddy" with the Horde in the future.

[Nevad]

BTW I just wanna say how funny it is Op asked a question, and then just vanished never to post again...

Can you blame him? Anytime people start talking faction blame it devolves into a "No U" party with no constructive talks being had.

Its all the Draenais fault anyway since if they had not settled on Draenor the Legion would never have noticed the Orcs ergo no Horde would have been created. Even further if Kil'jaeden and Archimonde had not thrown in their lot with Sargeras in the first place we would have been saved a lot of headache. No Kil'jaeden no corrupted Ner'zhul no Horde no Scourge no Banshee Queen.

(Too follow some peoples logic in this thread that makes the Alliance the bad guys since the Draenai are part of the Allaince and the Eredar (see Kil'jaeden & Archimonde) are basically Draenai, mindblowing? YES!) /S

[cparle87]

Garroshs denial means nothing, especially considering he blew up a city later. It only makes him a hypopcrite.



1) Wrong. Garrosh did not break with the Horde. He expelled the people he did not want. He is the Warchief with absolute power and he has not been beaten in Mak'gorah at that point, so the ones we fight in SoO, those are the Horde. Vol'jin, Sylvanas, Lorthemar they are interlopers. Ergo the Vale does indeed go on the Horde.

2) Just because the Vale is healed now (and I did not see or hear the Horde having any part in that) does not mean the crime is forgotten.



1) The Alliance agression was in response to Garrosh invading Ashenvale, something that for some reason keeps slipping the mind of Horde posters. I really wonder if you folks would also talk of acceptable military targets if Orgrimmar had been wiped out.

2) Let's say a nuclear bombing of any target is okay. It isn't, but let's. What bloody well isn't okay is capturing the fleeing civilian refugees, torturing them to death and then displaying them like trophies in Orgimmar. That is disgusting and sick.

Yeah, he's a hypocrite, but you have to agree the action was not sanctioned by the Horde.

So let's take a hypothetical. Anduin goes nuts and expels all but light-worshipping lunatics from the Alliance. Murders a bunch of people, destroys cities. The rest of the now-rebel leaders eventually overthrow him and take back control of the Alliance. You'd consider those former rebels responsible for what Anduin did because he called his group the Alliance and did those things under its banner? Cause that's what you're doing

Garrosh's invasions of Ashenvale was at least partially justified. After WC3 the orcs and night elves made a deal. The Horde gather lumber with the druid's supervision so they don't hurt the forest and trade food to the orcs which they need cause they live in a desert. The orcs in turn trade them other goods. The night elves unilaterally broke this treaty after Wrathgate even after it was proven the Horde was not at fault. How many governments in real life can unilaterially break a treaty and expect no retaliation?

Besides that, Theramore was used as a staging group for attacked into Horde territories who were completely uninvolved in the Ashenvale campaign. Every Horde member killed and Horde town attacked through Dustwallow, all of the Barrens, and Mulgore who had nothing to do with Garrosh. Imagine the US attacks Canada so England lands troops in Panana and cuts a bloody swath through all of Central America to get at the US.

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Have to disagree on that. Most of the horde players loved it... until they realised that there might be some sort of payback incoming.

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Teldrassil was not “denounced”. It was awkwardly swept under the rug and horde pretends it never happened and elfs just went mad all of a sudden.
Also Soutshore as far as i recall was so understaffed in terms of actual soldiers and guards that they were pretty much defenceless and had to rely on adventurers to clear out murlocs and such. Point is - it was not a “military outpost”.

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Arthas was from LORDAERON. Not Stormwind. If you mad at him go whine at your pet zombies.

The one that was denounced was the bombing of the druid school in Stonetalon. It was a neutral group blown up by a warmongering general. Garrosh was pissed off at him for numerous reasons, including bombing the hell out of land he wanted to clam for the Horde.

As for Southshore, it was a landing and staging point for every Alliance attack against Lordaeron. Southshore vs Tarren Mill is one of the most infamous conflicts. Also consider in lore where all the troops supporting the Stormpikes in Alterac Valley would have to land and supply up before heading there. Aiding and abetting the enemy is a valid charge in real life war tribunals.

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Rather something is a military target or not isn’t really relevant almost all of these also caused massive damage to the land and nature and pretty much every thing the legion/scourge destroyed was also a military target.

I made sure to specify cause people get all hung up on Theramore having a civilian population which was evacuated before the fighting, and its use in Alliance aggression against Horde holdings in their own lands.

[Kithelle]

Can you blame him? Anytime people start talking faction blame it devolves into a "No U" party with no constructive talks being had.

Its all the Draenais fault anyway since if they had not settled on Draenor the Legion would never have noticed the Orcs ergo no Horde would have been created. Even further if Kil'jaeden and Archimonde had not thrown in their lot with Sargeras in the first place we would have been saved a lot of headache. No Kil'jaeden no corrupted Ner'zhul no Horde no Scourge no Banshee Queen.

(Too follow some peoples logic in this thread that makes the Alliance the bad guys since the Draenai are part of the Allaince and the Eredar (see Kil'jaeden & Archimonde) are basically Draenai, mindblowing? YES!) /S

Because The Legion doesn't go to other planets conquering or converting other races into their cause....no...The Legion couldn't possibly have found the Orcs.

Also lets not blame the Orcs for being power hungry and drinking the demon blood in the first place...no they aren't to blame at all just like the Horde isn't to blame for just going with the flow and attempted genocide

[Accendor]

[QUOTE=DonChalk;52699100]

But they do - which is a big problem. Horde simply should have a different quest giver here.

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So you're telling me, if ALL of the souls of your people were trapped and the ONLY way to get them out of eternal torture time was to use someone who admittedly DID have a hand in sending them there, they'd decline it? Yeah, I don't think so. They make it clear they do NOT trust the horde player, but it's literally the only option.

It really is not - the alliance champion is a thing lorewise. There is no reason to involve Horde in Alliance quence and vise versa.

[dojichan]

Because The Legion doesn't go to other planets conquering or converting other races into their cause....no...The Legion couldn't possibly have found the Orcs.

Also lets not blame the Orcs for being power hungry and drinking the demon blood in the first place...no they aren't to blame at all just like the Horde isn't to blame for just going with the flow and attempted genocide

Also lets not blame the Draenei for being power hungry and making pacts with the demons in the first place...no they aren't to blame at all just like the Alliance isn't to blame for just going with the flow and attempted genocide

[Kithelle]

Also lets not blame the Draenei for being power hungry and making pacts with the demons in the first place...no they aren't to blame at all just like the Alliance isn't to blame for just going with the flow and attempted genocide

Draenei rebelled against Sargeras....Orcs not so much, ones who didn't drink the blood kept to themsevles. Alliance didn't attempt any genocide so I don't know where in your headcanon that came from

[dojichan]

Draenei rebelled against Sargeras....Orcs not so much. Alliance didn't attempt any genocide so I don't know where in your headcanon that came from

Orcs rebelled against the demons(This is literally the foundation of the horde)

Alliance has been trying to commit genocide on the undead since wow launched...

Genocide through enslavement and perpetual reduction in population is a thing. This is what they did to the orcs right before WC3.

The issue is that the horde/other people...Stopped the alliance from doing genocide. They would have done it long ago except they suck at it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I made sure to specify cause people get all hung up on Theramore having a civilian population which was evacuated before the fighting, and its use in Alliance aggression against Horde holdings in their own lands.

Ya sure but alliance aggression or Civilian populations really doesn't matter to my comparison between the horde/legion/scourge and how much damage they did not only to the people of azeroth but to the planet in of it self. every thing I listed didn't only kill people it destroyed/heavily damaged the land leaving it ruined in one way or another.

[Kithelle]

Orcs rebelled against the demons(This is literally the foundation of the horde)

Alliance has been trying to commit genocide on the undead since wow launched...

Genocide through enslavement and perpetual reduction in population is a thing. This is what they did to the orcs right before WC3.

The issue is that the horde/other people...Stopped the alliance from doing genocide. They would have done it long ago except they suck at it.

Yeah...they rebelled after doing their bidding for a long time (History of just going with the flow) they loved the power just didn't like someone else controlling them, where as the Draenei didn't go with the flow.

That's why they tried to make peace but family reunions were ruined because of Sylvanas and her cowardice

What were they supposed to do with the Orcs? Let them roam from so they can build another army and attack again? Actually try and commit genocide and wipe them out?

The issue is you're using head canon and ignoring logic to present a slanted argument

[Pawpurr]

Alliance has been trying to commit genocide on the undead since wow launched...

You can't really kill all of a people who are already dead, This accusation won't hold up in Azerothian court!

[dojichan]

Yeah...they rebelled after doing their bidding for a long time (History of just going with the flow) they loved the power just didn't like someone else controlling them, where as the Draenei didn't go with the flow.

That's why they tried to make peace but family reunions were ruined because of Sylvanas and her cowardice

What were they supposed to do with the Orcs? Let them roam from so they can build another army and attack again? Actually try and commit genocide and wipe them out?

The issue is you're using head canon and ignoring logic to present a slanted argument

Nah... your just rewriting history and calling anything else headcannon...
The truth is the horde and alliance have both tried to commit genocide on multiple occasions(The horde unfortunately have been more successful)
The truth is it is ridiculous to use either the original orcs or the original Draenei when talking about Alliance or Horde(It is oversimplification)

The core concept has always come from the idea that a culture or people are sub human. They consider anyone else to be abominations. In fantasy you have to expand sub-human to mean something else(as human isnt the only race)... but the idea still sits. Anytime someone looks at a race or culture of living sentient creatures and then references them as abominations... They are likely to commit genocide. We have seen this behavior on both sides for generations... The fantasy world is just one where genocide(or genocidal thoughts) are common place.

But lets ignore all that and look at your comparison for fun:
Draenei- The legion comes... offers them power... their leaders accept and convince their people to go along with it
Orc- The legion comes... offers them power... their leaders accept and convince their people to go along with it
(0 difference)

Draenei- Some of them rebel... They lose but successful escape to space
Orc- Some of them rebel... They lose... They have no means to escape and are killed
(Only difference is in how they escaped or couldnt)

Draenei- Those who stay behind stay loyal to the legion until we defeat them. They never reform or betray them again(as far as I can find)
Orc- Those who stay behind...a section of them realize that they are being controlled and forced to do this against their will. They rebel and successfully form a new group.
(Only difference is that the orcs realize their mistakes and turn away from the legion's control.)

Neither group is morally better or worse then the other. Both groups have a section of them that cause massive amounts of deaths in the cosmos. Both groups have a section of them that realize the evil and turn away from it. In the end, both groups were important to defeating the legion.

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You can't really kill all of a people who are already dead, This accusation won't hold up in Azerothian court!

This wouldn't hold up in an alliance court...

[Pawpurr]

This wouldn't hold up in an alliance court...

Or in an Azerothian court, where most of the horde turned against Sylvannas and the loyalists who were mostly Forsaken - And there are plenty who remember the other atrocities all the way back to the Wrathgate.

It's just that the Forsaken have really good lawyers down at Blizz HQ.

[Kithelle]

Nah... your just rewriting history and calling anything else headcannon...
The truth is the horde and alliance have both tried to commit genocide on multiple occasions(The horde unfortunately have been more successful)
The truth is it is ridiculous to use either the original orcs or the original Draenei when talking about Alliance or Horde(It is oversimplification)

The core concept has always come from the idea that a culture or people are sub human. They consider anyone else to be abominations. In fantasy you have to expand sub-human to mean something else(as human isnt the only race)... but the idea still sits. Anytime someone looks at a race or culture of living sentient creatures and then references them as abominations... They are likely to commit genocide. We have seen this behavior on both sides for generations... The fantasy world is just one where genocide(or genocidal thoughts) are common place.

But lets ignore all that and look at your comparison for fun:
Draenei- The legion comes... offers them power... their leaders accept and convince their people to go along with it
Orc- The legion comes... offers them power... their leaders accept and convince their people to go along with it
(0 difference)

Draenei- Some of them rebel... They lose but successful escape to space
Orc- Some of them rebel... They lose... They have no means to escape and are killed
(Only difference is in how they escaped or couldnt)

Draenei- Those who stay behind stay loyal to the legion until we defeat them. They never reform or betray them again(as far as I can find)
Orc- Those who stay behind...a section of them realize that they are being controlled and forced to do this against their will. They rebel and successfully form a new group.
(Only difference is that the orcs realize their mistakes and turn away from the legion's control.)

Neither group is morally better or worse then the other. Both groups have a section of them that cause massive amounts of deaths in the cosmos. Both groups have a section of them that realize the evil and turn away from it. In the end, both groups were important to defeating the legion.

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This wouldn't hold up in an alliance court...

You obviously aren't worth the time because you want to lie and make up facts...ignoring logic to call anything genocide

Sad how delusional some Horde players are in their desperation to defend the Horde and acts of Sylvanas...sadly this isn't even the worst. Still remember when a pal of yours tried to blame Sylvanas' actions on Anduin...that took the cake

Try harder

[Nevad]

Because The Legion doesn't go to other planets conquering or converting other races into their cause....no...The Legion couldn't possibly have found the Orcs.

Also lets not blame the Orcs for being power hungry and drinking the demon blood in the first place...no they aren't to blame at all just like the Horde isn't to blame for just going with the flow and attempted genocide

I feel like you missed my /s there or maybe im the one getting wooshed here, but hey lets keep playing this game.

Could the Legion have found the Orcs anyway? Sure. Would they have corrupted them like so many other races? Probably?

Biggest reason they got corrupted was that Kil'jaeden had such a hardon for screwing Velen and his people that the orcs, with their civilization being effectively in the iron age with a very shamanistic society, were a prime target to corrupt. So the Orcs were told by their ancestors, that they can actually talk to, that the Draenei were treacherous. Of course this was a lie all concocted by Kil'jaeden. Mind you the corruption of the Orcs was not a "flip of the switch" and happened over multiple years (we have a real world example of that). I am a bit fuzzy of the Orcs were told it was demon blood and not just a potion that would make them stronger. Sounds like a good deal one sip and boom you are better than you were before.

My biggest point is that the Draenei knew they were hunted by the Legion yet they still settled on a world with sentient life on it putting that life in danger, if they hadn't then the WoW universe would probably look very different. But one thing lead to another and we got the situation on Azeroth and players going with the "No U" style of arguments.

Draenei rebelled against Sargeras....Orcs not so much, ones who didn't drink the blood kept to themsevles. Alliance didn't attempt any genocide so I don't know where in your headcanon that came from

The Draenai ran away from Sargeras no rebellion there, if any Orc clan (see Frostwolves) would have fought back they would have been slaughtered by the now demon corrupted Orcs. Just a nitpick.