"Conduit Energy" is basically the same as "Azerite Reforge Cost"

[Tantaburs]

Im guessing you dont play at a high level? Because players are routinely benched and replaced with player X because they have Spec Y geared up and ready to go. The only difficulties i dont see this in is normal and heroic. In mythic the idea of "bring the player" is thrown out the window in favor of the player with the right spec geared appropriately - this is what is required to down those bosses. Sure, most are encouraged to have multiple toons geared up and ready to go, and be able to play multiple specs of the same class, but at the start of the expansion this isnt that easy to achieve. And no, not just the world first race. Currently, there is over 50% deviation on the SAME toon with the SAME player based on spec and covenants.

I raided mythic all of BfA until the guild fell apart mid Nyalotha

Killed all but G'huun in Uldir
We got CE in BfD
Killed up to Zaquul in EP

The guilds that are benching people for not having multiple specs playable or requiring multiple toons are actually less that 1% of the player base and almost 100% of them are calling the the covenant system and soulbind system to be changed to allow switching between the player power.

This comment also ignores the fact that I was talking about farm content IE. bosses you've already killed. No one is getting benched in High End guilds on farm content. Farm content is literally where you bring your bench in to get experience and gear. On progression yes if you aren't pulling your weight you will get benched. but on progression in a mythic guild you should be perfectly willing to be using the optimal setup for that fight that's what you signed up for.

I'll ask you the same question you asked me about playing at a high level. My logs are all public I'm the only character in the game with my name they are easy to find

[Hobbidaggy]

I wish they made different "profiles" for each spec, so you don't have to change everytime you switch spec, thus wasting charges.

This is actually a great idea. Have it bound to your talent tree. When you activate your talent tree it also activated your Conduit for that spec.

Then have a cost baked into that for changes once you swap.

[Tantaburs]

Actually the design is
I raid tonight(and want to be my best possible stats).
Well I guess I will pvp slightly sub optimally... Its ok though... everyone else is a scrub so I can crush them with my skill.

Or...
I raid tonight but I want to be optimal in pvp right now... I guess I will be slightly weaker tonight... Its ok thought... the bosses are scrubs so I can crush them with my skill.

The idea is... You choices matter.. You have to pick on thing and give up slightly on somthing else... If you are a good enough player, you can still beat all content(nothing changes)...It is just a small bit of making one content easier for you

You don't know how an ELO system works do you? The people you're playing against in rated PvP are on average as skilled as you are. If you are sub-optimal and they are not you lose.

[arkanon]

I raided mythic all of BfA until the guild fell apart mid Nyalotha

Killed all but G'huun in Uldir
We got CE in BfD
Killed up to Zaquul in EP

The guilds that are benching people for not having multiple specs playable or requiring multiple toons are actually less that 1% of the player base and almost 100% of them are calling the the covenant system and soulbind system to be changed to allow switching between the player power.

This comment also ignores the fact that I was talking about farm content IE. bosses you've already killed. No one is getting benched in High End guilds on farm content. Farm content is literally where you bring your bench in to get experience and gear. On progression yes if you aren't pulling your weight you will get benched. but on progression in a mythic guild you should be perfectly willing to be using the optimal setup for that fight that's what you signed up for.

I'll ask you the same question you asked me about playing at a high level. My logs are all public I'm the only character in the game with my name they are easy to find

So you cleared ONE mythic raid? Maybe if your guild had focused on performance more you would have cleared more than one raid.

[Tantaburs]

So you cleared ONE mythic raid? Maybe if your guild had focused on performance more you would have cleared more than one raid.

Maybe.

We also had a lot of attendance and roster issues due to people schedules changing. What's your progression lets see your logs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...anis/tantaburs
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...ganis/allerias

And again as I've stated 3 times now. If you are a CE player you signed up to be playing what is optimal more that what you prefer. Almost every CE player that I have talked to wants to be able to change at will because they don't want to be sub-optimal.

Not to mention that the only time you would be changing between every boss would be during farm which means that you've downed the bosses you know you're going to down the bosses, often you could down the bosses with 10% of your raid AFK (which is why carries exist) and therefore you wouldn't need to swap covenants or soulbinds to kill the boss. You could if you wanted to parse higher but you wouldn't have to.

Also not mentioning that this mythical situation where you have to swap soulbinds between each boss doesn't exist because you have 4 conduits and they all do about the same thing. They are passive damage increases that don't affect your gameplay in any real way.

The only time that changing covenants is important is when you are changing specs. This is a really easy fix for blizzard to make. Just have soulbinds be spec specific. The same way Talents are, the same way essences were, the same way Azerite SHOULD have been.

[Pawpurr]

Maybe.
And again as I've stated 3 times now. If you are a CE player you signed up to be playing what is optimal more that what you prefer. Almost every CE player that I have talked to wants to be able to change at will because they don't want to be sub-optimal.

I'm not that guy, but what you're describing is the 1% fucking with Blizzard's design to the detriment of the 99%. I haven't been hardcore raiding since Cataclysm, but even then I would not want them to make changes that screw the mass playerbase who, much like mortals in shadowlands, are nothing but fodder and food for the raiders. They make the economy go, They graduate and feed the "hardcore tier" of players, they make the WORLD of warcraft feel alive.

Blizzard needs to stop listening to CE raiders on all topics except mythic raid content, Because they could all quit tomorrow and it wouldn't affect the business, but if the 99% quits...

[Boo Radley]

What we have to look at is intent vs execution.

The intent stems from Blizzard getting lots of complaints about "my raids take too long because everyone wants to swap everything every time" "I feel like i'm required to know each little scenario and the optimal setup for it, because people with raidbots have that information at their fingertips they want me to as well(Debatable accuracy of this accusation)" "Why cant we just play the game"
The intended result is that you just play the game, but when you have to make a MASSIVE shift in direction you can. Such as you being a character that will dps in a dungeon, tank when needed to, dps in raid, tank for boss that requires it, offspec dps in PVP, heal if required(for 3 role hybrids) or even shift from single target focus to AOE focus gameplay that you can make that switch if you want to, but you have to balance the opportunity cost which keeps you from doing it all the time.

What happens in the actual execution is that players feel panicked because they're given just enough freedom to want to change but not enough to feel safe doing it. This created the scenario where the player loathes the idea of pulling the trigger due to the "What if"

I personally would feel much better if say, the soulbinds universally gained strength. So by week 15 every soulbind had all tiers unlocked, and then we had each spec coming with its own "allocated" soulbind configurations you could change each once a week. So if you wanted big gay Al as your soulbind in guardian(because he loves bears, obviously) you could have him set up one way, but if you wanted big gay Al setup a different way as your setup for resto, you could also keep it and have it switch automatically to that without having to use any sort of resources. So each spec that chose big gay Al would have him in their preferred setup, but also could switch to any other soulbind they so choose to freely without restriction. Each soulbind can be freely swapped between and the player may change each individual soulbind's talents around once per week. This gives you both the ability to make lots and lots of choices (12 base + 1 change each=24 potential per spec, 48 total for demonhunters, 72 most classes and 96 for druids) and tons of potential combinations should you mutlispec. So it not only gives us freedom but doesnt allow rampant overchanging of individual talent trees to minmax, it also rewards players for multi-role and spec play which does infact make them better, more complete players at the game.

I eagerly await flaming.

[Spazzix]

Honestly, everyone complaining about the 'limitations to their min maxxing" should be crossing their fingers for the system to go unchanged (maybe they secretly are). Without the restrictions, you'd have to admit that if you put the same amount of effort into your spec as you do into complaining, you'd be far better than you would be because of 5 odd percent you pick up from a more optimal soulbind tree. There are three soulbinds and you have three specs (and no, druids are not oppressed, the extra spec is a luxury that they get tax-free anyway.) But this restrictive system will give you a fat, juicy scapegoat for the entire xpac.

Here are some other restrictions in the game that are imposed by the designers for arbitrary reasons:

You can't use flying mounts in a raid encounter
You can't have throughput cooldowns from other classes
You can't continue to use your OP corruption setup in SL
You can't choose to allocate your stat by just clicking +/- buttons next to the stats
You can't have all four covenant abilities simultaneously
You can't respec mid-fight
You can't eat/drink while in combat

I think we should start complaining about the things I just listed instead because they would have a much bigger impact on min-maxxing than a few measly percentage points from soulbinds.

You don't even have to unsubscribe (though you could) if you consider the min-maxing "requirements" unfair. You can play at 1400 rating, do +2 keys, and do LFR and covenant/soulbind choice will not hold you back at all. If you opt-in to higher tiers of difficulty, you are accepting the restrictions that come with it. Everyone is playing with the same restrictions.

The only argument that holds even an ounce of water is the PvP vs PvE issues related to covenant abilities that are massively impactful in one mode and weak in the other. And the thing with that is, you are free to choose a class/spec that has less variance between the two. Or, you can pick the PvE covenant, get your top 10 world clear and then respec for PvP and do PvP for the rest of the patch (or respec back to PvE in a week—OES NOES A WHOLE WEEK!).

Here's the ultimate solution: if you really really really think that your vision of the game is the best, you can start working your way up in the field and building a resume that is so insanely strong that Blizz will throw away one of it's lead devs/directors and give you the position. Now *you* can field the questions about why you're trying to ruin the game because *I* think your choices are bad.

[dojichan]

You don't know how an ELO system works do you? The people you're playing against in rated PvP are on average as skilled as you are. If you are sub-optimal and they are not you lose.

You are only looking at ELO in a single match and a single iteration... the beauty of ELO is how it works over many many matches...

Lets examine the elo system:
Person type A: Prioritizes PVP and is a high skilled pvp player
Person type B: Prioritizes PVE and is a high skilled pvp player
Person type C: Prioritizes PVP and is a low skilled pvp player
Person type D: Prioritizes PVE and is a low skilled pvp player

You are right when you say that two people of equal skill.. means the better geared person wins... SO lets push this over and over and see how it shakes out

Top person in the world will be from A
Next Tier: (Probably all A...might contain a B if someone is really that much more skilled then others)
Next Tier: (B's )
Next Tier: (B's and C's)
Next Tier: (c's)
Next Tier: (C's maybe some D's)
...
Final Tier: (D's)

So at the end of the day you are right...

But it also doesn't matter to me...For me, pvp is about facing challenges
The top player will be an A... but that person is both the best skilled player and the player willing to make the commitment to pvp.
I(You) will play against players that give you a challenge...Either the challenge comes from better gear or the challenge comes from higher skill)...
Either way, I(you) can be challenged at all times... and the top player will deserve their rank.

[Thorcall]

I'm not that guy, but what you're describing is the 1% fucking with Blizzard's design to the detriment of the 99%. I haven't been hardcore raiding since Cataclysm, but even then I would not want them to make changes that screw the mass playerbase who, much like mortals in shadowlands, are nothing but fodder and food for the raiders. They make the economy go, They graduate and feed the "hardcore tier" of players, they make the WORLD of warcraft feel alive.

Blizzard needs to stop listening to CE raiders on all topics except mythic raid content, Because they could all quit tomorrow and it wouldn't affect the business, but if the 99% quits...

Now I wait for you to explain how the lfr player (the majority of the playerbase) benefit from this kind of restriction . My guess his that this player doesn't care, probably doesn't even know there is a restriction because this player change his talent maybe once per year, so why restrict in the first place?

[arkanon]

Maybe.

We also had a lot of attendance and roster issues due to people schedules changing. What's your progression lets see your logs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...anis/tantaburs
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...ganis/allerias

And again as I've stated 3 times now. If you are a CE player you signed up to be playing what is optimal more that what you prefer. Almost every CE player that I have talked to wants to be able to change at will because they don't want to be sub-optimal.

Not to mention that the only time you would be changing between every boss would be during farm which means that you've downed the bosses you know you're going to down the bosses, often you could down the bosses with 10% of your raid AFK (which is why carries exist) and therefore you wouldn't need to swap covenants or soulbinds to kill the boss. You could if you wanted to parse higher but you wouldn't have to.

Also not mentioning that this mythical situation where you have to swap soulbinds between each boss doesn't exist because you have 4 conduits and they all do about the same thing. They are passive damage increases that don't affect your gameplay in any real way.

The only time that changing covenants is important is when you are changing specs. This is a really easy fix for blizzard to make. Just have soulbinds be spec specific. The same way Talents are, the same way essences were, the same way Azerite SHOULD have been.

Considering you said this:

In my experience once a boss is killed the first time its pretty easy to reclear.

I find it very, very funny how many bosses you have 1 kill on, and many bosses with only 2. Which confirms what i said to begin with - killing a boss once does NOT automatically make it farm content, and your own logs and armory confirms this. Strange that you would argue against something you are and have experienced yourself.

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Now I wait for you to explain how the lfr player (the majority of the playerbase) benefit from this kind of restriction . My guess his that this player doesn't care, probably doesn't even know there is a restriction because this player change his talent maybe once per year, so why restrict in the first place?

Because the majority of the player base only change it once per year?...Dont get me wrong, im not agreeing, im just pointing out a huge logical flaw in your argument.

[Nite92]

Don't get me wrong, I love the new change to the Conduit system. It's better than nothing, so good job Blizz. But to be honest, it's basically going to function like Azerite Reforging in BFA just with a literal hard-cap.

I still think it's unnecessary to put a limit on the conduit system, but it's definitely than the "old" weekly reset.

Except that instead of reaching millions of gold, you get 7 respecs per week, that is in case of just changing potency conduits 2.33 respecs per week. For free. So no it is not the same.

[Pawpurr]

Now I wait for you to explain how the lfr player (the majority of the playerbase) benefit from this kind of restriction . My guess his that this player doesn't care, probably doesn't even know there is a restriction because this player change his talent maybe once per year, so why restrict in the first place?

Restrictions don't benefit the individual, they benefit the collective. So to argue that would be inane. I'm not for or against the system in that way, I'm against people who do mythic raiding forcing their perspective on the rest of the game. If they had their way, there would be no RPG left in the RPG - No random numbers, No Procs, No hard choices only swappable loadouts.. This isn't a MOBA. There are different activities and difficulties for a reason, and a system which touches all of them should not be built around only one of them.

That's not saying I think borrowed power is a good idea but that ship has sailed and sunk already.

[Tantaburs]

I'm not that guy, but what you're describing is the 1% fucking with Blizzard's design to the detriment of the 99%. I haven't been hardcore raiding since Cataclysm, but even then I would not want them to make changes that screw the mass playerbase who, much like mortals in shadowlands, are nothing but fodder and food for the raiders. They make the economy go, They graduate and feed the "hardcore tier" of players, they make the WORLD of warcraft feel alive.

Blizzard needs to stop listening to CE raiders on all topics except mythic raid content, Because they could all quit tomorrow and it wouldn't affect the business, but if the 99% quits...

That's not what I'm saying AT ALL please read my arguments before responding to them.

What I'm saying now for the 4th time is that for the 99% the only people who are making you swap conduits in between every boss is yourself. A lot of people will do it to parse higher or to compete with others in their own guild. When I raided heroic instead of mythic we still had internal competitions on DPS meters. For the slim minority that is REQUIRED to swap to the BiS setup should be fine with that because its what they signed up for. If you are in a heroic or normal guild and your RL is telling you that you have to swap for each fight tell him to buzz off and stop pretending he's a CE raid leader.

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Considering you said this:



I find it very, very funny how many bosses you have 1 kill on, and many bosses with only 2. Which confirms what i said to begin with - killing a boss once does NOT automatically make it farm content, and your own logs and armory confirms this. Strange that you would argue against something you are and have experienced yourself.

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Because the majority of the player base only change it once per year?...Dont get me wrong, im not agreeing, im just pointing out a huge logical flaw in your argument.

I assume you're talking about my warriors Nylotha logs. My warrior has run H Nyalotha once to help out with a boost run. I raided mythic on my mage.

I would also still like to see your logs. I assume you have multiple Mythic N'Zoth kills? since you are an expert on the subject.

[Thorcall]

Because the majority of the player base only change it once per year?...Dont get me wrong, im not agreeing, im just pointing out a huge logical flaw in your argument.

I don't understand you here, how is it an logical flaw? Just in case, I'm not english maybe I didn't phrase my post the way I wanted. Raiders, higher than lfr, are already a minority, I don't think a lot of the very casual playerbase optimise their characters or care about their talents, same as covenant, soulbind, conduits ect. My point was that since they don't change often, its very unlikely that they care about this system, or benefit from it (I have a hard time understand how an restrictition benefit somebody but when I read the number of players defending covenant lock for "reasons" I guess there is some interest somewhere).

Restrictions don't benefit the individual, they benefit the collective. So to argue that would be inane. I'm not for or against the system in that way, I'm against people who do mythic raiding forcing their perspective on the rest of the game. If they had their way, there would be no RPG left in the RPG - No random numbers, No Procs, No hard choices only swappable loadouts.. This isn't a MOBA. There are different activities and difficulties for a reason, and a system which touches all of them should not be built around only one of them.

That's not saying I think borrowed power is a good idea but that ship has sailed and sunk already.

But... I don't think a lot of the "bid bad 1%" ask for that? For my perspective, we only ask for things to stay the way they are now, and the way they where for the last 8+ years? Talent lock to a daily/weekly cooldown are a new thing from shadowland, it has never been the case before before, the only restriction at some point during the early days of wow was a gold value, quite some time ago, and that was farmable, not an arbitrary time limit.

[arkanon]

I don't understand you here, how is it an logical flaw? Just in case, I'm not english maybe I didn't phrase my post the way I wanted. Raiders, higher than lfr, are already a minority, I don't think a lot of the very casual playerbase optimise their characters or care about their talents, same as covenant, soulbind, conduits ect. My point was that since they don't change often, its very unlikely that they care about this system, or benefit from it (I have a hard time understand how an restrictition benefit somebody but when I read the number of players defending covenant lock for "reasons" I guess there is some interest somewhere).

So how is it detrimental to them in any way if it has zero impact on them?

[Schattenlied]

I wish they made different "profiles" for each spec, so you don't have to change everytime you switch spec, thus wasting charges.

This 100% needs to happen.

[Frolk]

I wish they made different "profiles" for each spec, so you don't have to change everytime you switch spec, thus wasting charges.

This is what i sorta expected, as second talent tree, but no, that was too practical and simple.

[arkanon]

I assume you have multiple Mythic N'Zoth kills? since you are an expert on the subject.

That is correct, yes. However i am not claiming to be an expert.

[Tantaburs]

So how is it detrimental to them in any way if it has zero impact on them?

They aren't saying this iteration is detrimental to them they are saying that whatever the system ends up being has zero impact on them because they likely aren't going to change anyway. So the argument that letting people change at will screws over the 99% is flawed because low level players don't change anyway.

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That is correct, yes. However i am not claiming to be an expert.

Lets see the logs then.