What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Hyeonh]

This just adds more to the frustration meter on the horde being hit with the badly written story stick. Can't say i'm fond of the lead writer that took over Metzen's position, he may favor horde story writing from time to time but he at least makes it more believable for the audience.

[Soon-TM]

They own Darkshore and there are still battles going on in Ashenvale itself as according to mission table. So that was a really dumb piece sarcasm.

I was under the impression that everything about mission tables was non canon

[Raisei]

So let's take a hypothetical. Anduin goes nuts and expels all but light-worshipping lunatics from the Alliance. Murders a bunch of people, destroys cities. The rest of the now-rebel leaders eventually overthrow him and take back control of the Alliance. You'd consider those former rebels responsible for what Anduin did because he called his group the Alliance and did those things under its banner? Cause that's what you're doing

That's a big misunderstanding of the leading structure of the Alliance and the Horde.

The Alliance is exactly what the word says: an alliance, forged to protect itself from the Horde. Anduin is High King which gives him military command of the Alliance forces, but he is not an absolute ruler that lords over the other races. Hence why Tyrande can just tell him to shove off and even invade Darkshore against his wishes. They are allies, not underlings. Ergo if Anduin would go nuts the remaining leaders could just strip the title of High King from him to expell him from the Alliance, without ending the Alliance.

The Horde on the other side did demand everyone joining to swear the blood oath to the Warchief, making him an absolute ruler that for example even decides who becomes the next leader for a certain race or that can simply execute leaders on the spot without trial, as Sylvanas wanted to do with Baine.
As a member of the Horde your only recourse when your leader goes nuts is Mak'gorah, everything else means becoming a traitor and leaving the Horde. The Warchief is in this sense the Horde because he alone decides what the Horde is. l'etat c'est moi with Orcs basically.

Garrosh's invasions of Ashenvale was at least partially justified. After WC3 the orcs and night elves made a deal. The Horde gather lumber with the druid's supervision so they don't hurt the forest and trade food to the orcs which they need cause they live in a desert. The orcs in turn trade them other goods. The night elves unilaterally broke this treaty after Wrathgate even after it was proven the Horde was not at fault. How many governments in real life can unilaterially break a treaty and expect no retaliation?

Breaking a trade agreement is hardly a justified cause for war. Also it was never proven that the Horde wasn't at fault. Even if Putress did not act on Sylvanas' orders she did order the creation of a blight that would kill living and undead and she did so by using human civilians as guinea pigs. All of that happened under Thrall's nose. And even after knowing that, the Forsaken are still part of the Horde. Their crimes are the Horde's crimes.

Besides that, Theramore was used as a staging group for attacked into Horde territories who were completely uninvolved in the Ashenvale campaign. Every Horde member killed and Horde town attacked through Dustwallow, all of the Barrens, and Mulgore who had nothing to do with Garrosh. Imagine the US attacks Canada so England lands troops in Panana and cuts a bloody swath through all of Central America to get at the US.

You missed the part where Garossh declared that he would conquer all of Kalimdor. That directly threatens Theramore and makes every Horde encampment an enemy bastion.

But I hear you, you want to say that the Horde had no choice but to get Ashenvale and thus this all started. But that is just not true. The Horde could have approached Jaina to ask for mediation with the Night Elves, before the bombing she was definately in favour of peace and would have helped where she could. Garrosh was in the end just looking for an excuse for war so he could be like his father who he so desperately tries to emulate.

I made sure to specify cause people get all hung up on Theramore having a civilian population which was evacuated before the fighting, and its use in Alliance aggression against Horde holdings in their own lands.

Indeed the civilians were evacuated. And then Garrosh captured them to torture them to death and display them in Orgrimmar. It was a warcrime no matter how you look at it. It was also extremly cowardly.

[Magical Mudcrab]

nah i havent seen the scolding either, maybe its not during the play, (I have not done the FULL campaign on horde) but i have done the play a few times on horde.

closest thing to a scolding is the people gasping and ysera weeping over the world tree being burned.

The 'scolding' is likely a mixture of Ysera lamenting what has happened since her death, mixed with the short discussion by some of the NPCs in the front row about the missing spirits that should have gone to Ardenweald. Less of a scolding and more of an observation that the Horde is full of shitters, to be honest.

[Ardenaso]

This just adds more to the frustration meter on the horde being hit with the badly written story stick

Horde being written into evil villainous warmongers is Alliance bias

[Nevad]

there was a few rebellions up to the whole "alright were running" but it was small cause the demons were hiding their activity within the draenei. something i guess they didnt need for the orcs.

- - - Updated - - -

They looked for a place, but an attack caused them to crash onto draenor, they didnt choose to land there.

Fair enough i was always under the impression that when Velen got his vision he gathered up all who would listen and evacuated as fast as he could never really heard there were open rebellions.

Pretty sure the Demons were never really openly aiding the Orcs and it was mostly kept secret by the Shadow Council, at least until demon blood was used to enslave the Orcs.

I thought the Draenai ran out of fuel and had to do a emergency landing, is it in a book or in-game where we learn they were attacked?

[Feanoro]

Horde being written into evil villainous warmongers is Alliance bias

Or it's catering to all the vocal Horde players that want to be the WC2 evil Horde.

[DonChalk]

[QUOTE=Accendor;52700444]

It really is not - the alliance champion is a thing lorewise. There is no reason to involve Horde in Alliance quence and vise versa.

If the alliance player was there, at the same time as a horde champion, sure. But when the horde rolls up, they are the *only one* that they know of who can do this. It makes sense, you're just biased.

[Darth-Piekus]

Or it's catering to all the vocal Horde players that want to be the WC2 evil Horde.

That catering created two of the worst expansions in the game. One was WOD and the other was BFA. The Fourth war was by far the worst thing in the game as many things were ignored or nerfed in order for Garrosh/Sylvannas to be able to do what they did.

[Eggroll]

And Forsaken.

What consequences did Forsaken get? Blew up their city? Well, they did this themselves, they wanted to do this. I wouldn't book this under "consequences" if they volunteered to do it.

- - - Updated - - -

Tyrande giving out quests and rewards to Horde players?

WoW devs found yet another way to humiliate the nelves. Why am I not surprised? They enjoy adding insult to injury for the nelvesa and their fans.

Tyrande would kill any Horde on sight, and rightfully so. No way she would be there chatting with one.

[Feanoro]

What consequences did Forsaken get? Blew up their city? Well, they did this themselves, they wanted to do this. I wouldn't book this under "consequences" if they volunteered to do it.

- - - Updated - - -

Tyrande giving out quests and rewards to Horde players?

WoW devs found yet another way to humiliate the nelves. Why am I not surprised? They enjoy adding insult to injury for the nelvesa and their fans.

Tyrande would kill any Horde on sight, and rightfully so. No way she would be there chatting with one.

Don't you know we're supposed to be grateful to be allowed to exist in their precious Horde animals' game?

[Nevad]

What consequences did Forsaken get? Blew up their city? Well, they did this themselves, they wanted to do this. I wouldn't book this under "consequences" if they volunteered to do it.

Since they were losing the city Sylvanas decided to make sure the Alliance could not use it, solid tactical choice (the method might be debated though). But the capital of the Forsaken is still gone as well as the town Brill outside it. So saying the Forsaken didn't receive any consequences is a bit disingenuous. Btw why didn't the Alliance roll into the Forsaken starting area and burn that down? They already routed the horde from the area so should have been easy pickings.

ALSO why the hell don't we ever see Jaina use that cool ship? Comon Blizzard that was such a hype moment.

[Feanoro]

Since they were losing the city Sylvanas decided to make sure the Alliance could not use it, solid tactical choice (the method might be debated though). But the capital of the Forsaken is still gone as well as the town Brill outside it. So saying the Forsaken didn't receive any consequences is a bit disingenuous. Btw why didn't the Alliance roll into the Forsaken starting area and burn that down? They already routed the horde from the area so should have been easy pickings.

ALSO why the hell don't we ever see Jaina use that cool ship? Comon Blizzard that was such a hype moment.

It was made very clear it was planned and prepared for. The NuScourge made the choice to sacrifice it if needed. Night Elves got no such choice.

[Nevad]

It was made very clear it was planned and prepared for. The NuScourge made the choice to sacrifice it if needed. Night Elves got no such choice.

So they were prepared to sacrifice the city if it came to it, seems very in character for the Forsaken faction and especially Sylvanas. I don't see what the NEs would have done, burn the tree down themselves? I just don't get why there was no magic at all protecting the tree. For that matter how in the living hell did the entire tree burn up, the thing is bloody massive it should be next to impossible for a fire to catch on it.

[Feanoro]

So they were prepared to sacrifice the city if it came to it, seems very in character for the Forsaken faction and especially Sylvanas. I don't see what the NEs would have done, burn the tree down themselves? I just don't get why there was no magic at all protecting the tree. For that matter how in the living hell did the entire tree burn up, the thing is bloody massive it should be next to impossible for a fire to catch on it.

Simple, because The Plot Demanded It! Like 99% of BfA, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense unless like Danuser you throw consistency and internal logic of the setting out the window.

[Soon-TM]

Or it's catering to all the vocal Horde players that want to be the WC2 evil Horde.

WC2 EvuLlL fans should go back to WC2. WoW's Horde is (or at least was) based on WC3, and the constant villain batting is clear proof of Alliance bias, even if someone there has to pay for the broken dishes i.e. NEs.

[Syegfryed]

It was made very clear it was planned and prepared for. The NuScourge made the choice to sacrifice it if needed. Night Elves got no such choice.

they could have surrendered

[scubi666stacy]

WC2 EvuLlL fans should go back to WC2. WoW's Horde is (or at least was) based on WC3, and the constant villain batting is clear proof of Alliance bias, even if someone there has to pay for the broken dishes i.e. NEs.

Exactly. I did not ask for Garrosh 2.0. I hate all Windrunner sisters with passion. I am still bitter that we had to lose Vol'jin to get the Bitchqueen as Warchief.
I do not get any option to act against anything my character would oppose if I want to play the game on my main character which exists since mid-TBC. I was taken hostage, my Horde characters just the same (except for my 1 Forsaken).

Naively, I have expected the Alliance to be the aggressor this time, after Greymane being that fanatical in attacking Sylvanas in Legion in every possible situation. But no, the writers all speak about "morally grey" but paint everything in black and white. Why should I care what some NPC will babble? They only address some placeholder.

[Ardenaso]

WC2 EvuLlL fans should go back to WC2. WoW's Horde is (or at least was) based on WC3, and the constant villain batting is clear proof of Alliance bias, even if someone there has to pay for the broken dishes i.e. NEs.

Or it's catering to all the vocal Horde players that want to be the WC2 evil Horde.

or that too - I just want my WC3 Horde back

[Feanoro]

they could have surrendered

Yes, I can see how that'd play out too, with the Horde directing them onto trains to take them to work camps with free showers.