FFXIV the worst game I've tried in a while

[Swnem]

You're correct in that the FFXIV rotations aren't complex, at all, but the point is that having more buttons to press makes it feel somewhat more satisfying than WoW with it's literal 4-5 buttons priority list for some people. I'm one of those people. The one thing I dislike about WoW is how there's absolutely minimal difference between a level 40 character and a level 120 character in terms of what, or how many, buttons they're pressing (very dependent on class and talents chosen, though).

There is a lot of bloat and they should do something about that, but not nearly to the extent WoW did where they gutted it from 12+ buttons to 4-5 total. There is a middle ground.

Honestly, i hope they don't prune too much. I'd rather they just pit the combos in a single button like in pvp and story segments. That would reduce what is like 9 buttons to 3 on the case of combo based jobs without removing abilities.

Also, in this note i will disagree with who says ffxiv jobs aren't more complex. Playing a Dragoon with 2 different combos, buffs to manage, positionals to manage, off gcd abilitied, several damage cooldowns to manage and all without weak auras... compared to say a ret paladin with it's 4 abilities, 45sec cd and wings. Yeah... there is no comparison.
"Positionals are annoying" they might cry. Everyone has an ability that allows you to ignore positionals. It's skilful to use it. Just like the one that negates knockback. FFXIV melee classes have vastly more depth.

[Katchii]

ah, i see. i actually prefer fewer buttons personally. its not that i cant use more, i just prefer less. though i will admit i love my machinist, which currently uses.... 14ish single target non situational buttons? including off globals and cds.

you may enjoy the leveling a bit more in shadowlands though. instead of having everything by level 100 you should be getting abilities or passives every couple levels i believe. that said, ive not actually leveled in shadowlands, so i could be horribly mistaken. but with less levels and the same amount of abilities one can only assume.

I am looking forward to the changes in Shadowlands, it's something new and different.

this can be true of any game with mechanics though. using cooldowns at a bad point in the fight will always cause issues in your dps regardless of the game. it may or may not be more punishing in ffxiv than wow, depending on the fight.

For some classes in FFXIV it FEELS worse than it does for any class in WoW. Summoner for example, is one of the worst IMO.

Honestly, i hope they don't prune too much. I'd rather they just pit the combos in a single button like in pvp and story segments. That would reduce what is like 9 buttons to 3 on the case of combo based jobs without removing abilities.

Wouldn't always work in some cases, like Samurai where all three combos start from the same button. But I get what you're saying.

I want more procs that make things instant or add flavor to the ability that wasn't there to begin with and change up the fixed rotations that almost every non-healing class has. That's why I like playing Dancer and Red Mage so much because the game play is much more varied.

I enjoy the combos, I really do, but having to stick to them so rigidly is not complex, gets really boring and can be exceedingly annoying because of the encounter design where things go invulnerable at certain stages and can make you miss a big hit or window. That's why I can't stand playing Summoner now.

Also, in this note i will disagree with who says ffxiv jobs aren't more complex. Playing a Dragoon with 2 different combos, buffs to manage, positionals to manage, off gcd abilitied, several damage cooldowns to manage and all without weak auras... compared to say a ret paladin with it's 4 abilities, 45sec cd and wings. Yeah... there is no comparison.

Those combos and debuffs etc are all inevitable though, there's no decision making process in when or how to use them really...you just have more buttons to press to do it. At no point in any encounter would you deliberately choose NOT to perform your combo in the order you're supposed to do it. The only exception I can think of is with Gunbreaker and the Continuation combo that doesn't break your normal 1-2-3 combo, so you would break up your normal combo in order to squeeze that in a DPS window.

"Positionals are annoying" they might cry. Everyone has an ability that allows you to ignore positionals. It's skilful to use it. Just like the one that negates knockback. FFXIV melee classes have vastly more depth.

I disagree. You just have more buttons to press. As I said earlier, in most cases there is not really a decision making process for the combos, you do them as you're told, period. Most classes have no procs to disrupt the rotation, and most classes have combos that apply the debuffs or buffs they need to keep up, which means you don't even need to think about them as debuffs/buffs really, you just execute your combos and you're fine. There are few exceptions.

That said, this is semantics or differences of opinion on what is considered "complex." I prefer FFXIV, however you want to define or call it, I like having more buttons to push because it keeps things more interesting IMO. It feels better than pressing 2-4 buttons.

I wish FFXIV would take a page from the WoW or even SWTOR book here though and add variety to each class so that they didn't all play EXACTLY the same way. Add some talents or something that completely change, or at least add some variety to, the rotation so that abilities synergize differently than the straight up combo system. Give a couple or weaker or non rotational abilities a passive with a built in cooldown that causes one of your abilities to be instant, or cast outside of the combo and still get the full benefit or something. That would add depth.

[Sevarin]

Playing a Dragoon with 2 different combos, buffs to manage

its two 4 button combos both using the same starter, and still a 100% scripted rotation. the "buffs" you have to manage are baked into your rotation. 10% damage increase from disembowel, and blood of the dragon being a 25 second cooldown with a 20 second duration that is increased by your base rotation, unless there are long periods of down time - which do happen - you can easily keep this up 100% of the time with minimal attention.

positionals to manage.
Everyone has an ability that allows you to ignore positionals.

i mean... youre trying pretty hard to contradict yourself there, saying that positionals add "complexity" then say theres a cooldown to remove them. its called true north and lasts 10 seconds, has 2 charges, and a 45 second recharge. this means you can ignore them less than 1/4 of the time in a long fight. this doesnt change the fact that it can easily be on cooldown and the boss can spin like a damn top at exactly the right moment to miss a positional. so no, positionals dont add complexity. theyre annoying, at best.

off gcd abilitied

again, the base global cooldown on attacks in ff14 is 2.5 seconds, compared to 1.5 in wow. this, by default, adds a LARGE amount of ease to your rotation, as you have 66.6% more time to react to your next ability between each attack. you have 4 off globals that are on a 30 second, 60 second, 120 second, and 30 second cooldowns. thats a whole 11 attacks in a 2 minute duration.

several damage cooldowns to manage

cooldowns are generally always used on cooldown unless you need to save for a burst phase or the boss is taking off for 30 seconds because thats just a common thing in ff14. theres no real complexity here. as a dragoon, you have 3 damage increasing cooldowns. 90 second, 120 second, and 180 second.

all without weak auras.

you should try playing without mods some time. when the game doesnt play for you, things are a little more interesting. the people that usually complain about wow being too easy are generally people that use so many mods that they couldnt manage to do 1/2 of their normal dps without them. theres even mods to tell you what buttons to push in your rotation. i do hope you dont use rotation mods.

compared to say a ret paladin with it's 4 abilities, 45sec cd and wings. Yeah... there is no comparison.

you picked one of the well known easiest class/spec combos in the game, and didnt factor in the talent abilities that you need to use. there are 3 of these, bringing it up to a 6 button priority system with a 7th added at 20%.

im honestly sort of surprised you didnt say demon hunter 2 button class, but maybe you realize that nobody that actually wants to do more damage than an afk healer plays with the talents that allow that.


TL: DR stop trying to oversell the game as incredibly complex. its not.

[Swnem]

I am looking forward to the changes in Shadowlands, it's something new and different.



For some classes in FFXIV it FEELS worse than it does for any class in WoW. Summoner for example, is one of the worst IMO.



Wouldn't always work in some cases, like Samurai where all three combos start from the same button. But I get what you're saying.

I want more procs that make things instant or add flavor to the ability that wasn't there to begin with and change up the fixed rotations that almost every non-healing class has. That's why I like playing Dancer and Red Mage so much because the game play is much more varied.

I enjoy the combos, I really do, but having to stick to them so rigidly is not complex, gets really boring and can be exceedingly annoying because of the encounter design where things go invulnerable at certain stages and can make you miss a big hit or window. That's why I can't stand playing Summoner now.



Those combos and debuffs etc are all inevitable though, there's no decision making process in when or how to use them really...you just have more buttons to press to do it. At no point in any encounter would you deliberately choose NOT to perform your combo in the order you're supposed to do it. The only exception I can think of is with Gunbreaker and the Continuation combo that doesn't break your normal 1-2-3 combo, so you would break up your normal combo in order to squeeze that in a DPS window.



I disagree. You just have more buttons to press. As I said earlier, in most cases there is not really a decision making process for the combos, you do them as you're told, period. Most classes have no procs to disrupt the rotation, and most classes have combos that apply the debuffs or buffs they need to keep up, which means you don't even need to think about them as debuffs/buffs really, you just execute your combos and you're fine. There are few exceptions.

That said, this is semantics or differences of opinion on what is considered "complex." I prefer FFXIV, however you want to define or call it, I like having more buttons to push because it keeps things more interesting IMO. It feels better than pressing 2-4 buttons.

I wish FFXIV would take a page from the WoW or even SWTOR book here though and add variety to each class so that they didn't all play EXACTLY the same way. Add some talents or something that completely change, or at least add some variety to, the rotation so that abilities synergize differently than the straight up combo system. Give a couple or weaker or non rotational abilities a passive with a built in cooldown that causes one of your abilities to be instant, or cast outside of the combo and still get the full benefit or something. That would add depth.

I agree with all that. I do like procs myself. My idea is that the combos that start with the same skill just get seperated. The dragoon also has 2 combos that start with the same move.

Just... i do think that pressing 12 buttons in the right order while doing mechanics is more complex than 4. But, yes, we can differ on our definition of complex.

- - - Updated - - -

its two 4 button combos both using the same starter, and still a 100% scripted rotation. the "buffs" you have to manage are baked into your rotation. 10% damage increase from disembowel, and blood of the dragon being a 25 second cooldown with a 20 second duration that is increased by your base rotation, unless there are long periods of down time - which do happen - you can easily keep this up 100% of the time with minimal attention.

i mean... youre trying pretty hard to contradict yourself there, saying that positionals add "complexity" then say theres a cooldown to remove them. its called true north and lasts 10 seconds, has 2 charges, and a 45 second recharge. this means you can ignore them less than 1/4 of the time in a long fight. this doesnt change the fact that it can easily be on cooldown and the boss can spin like a damn top at exactly the right moment to miss a positional. so no, positionals dont add complexity. theyre annoying, at best.

again, the base global cooldown on attacks in ff14 is 2.5 seconds, compared to 1.5 in wow. this, by default, adds a LARGE amount of ease to your rotation, as you have 66.6% more time to react to your next ability between each attack. you have 4 off globals that are on a 30 second, 60 second, 120 second, and 30 second cooldowns. thats a whole 11 attacks in a 2 minute duration.

cooldowns are generally always used on cooldown unless you need to save for a burst phase or the boss is taking off for 30 seconds because thats just a common thing in ff14. theres no real complexity here. as a dragoon, you have 3 damage increasing cooldowns. 90 second, 120 second, and 180 second.

you should try playing without mods some time. when the game doesnt play for you, things are a little more interesting. the people that usually complain about wow being too easy are generally people that use so many mods that they couldnt manage to do 1/2 of their normal dps without them. theres even mods to tell you what buttons to push in your rotation. i do hope you dont use rotation mods.


you picked one of the well known easiest class/spec combos in the game, and didnt factor in the talent abilities that you need to use. there are 3 of these, bringing it up to a 6 button priority system with a 7th added at 20%.

im honestly sort of surprised you didnt say demon hunter 2 button class, but maybe you realize that nobody that actually wants to do more damage than an afk healer plays with the talents that allow that.


TL: DR stop trying to oversell the game as incredibly complex. its not.

I compared the classes i mained in both games. It's a personal opinion.
I am not trying to sell the game. I am saying that there is a very noticeable difference in the amount of things i have to do in one and the other. That amount is clearly bigger with the dragoon. It pushes me into finding more keybinds and being more aware of the order in which i press things and where i position myself.
WoW is more reactive, but WoW has addons that reduce complexity and FF doesnt, or well... are more difficult to set up and against ToS.
But, end of the day, for me, juggling say 12 rotational abilities on and off gcd with their positional is more complex than what i juggle on the paladin. It feels easier to mess up and it feels way rewarding when i pull it off.

[alturic]

Clunky combat is what’s ruining it for me.
Honestly if someone tells me it isn’t then its either:
A- They didn't play WoW.
B- They’re trolling or delusional.

Maybe playing Paladin was the wrong choice and should’ve went with a ranged class instead so I don’t have to deal with the ridiculously stiff movement. But after reaching 71 that feels daunting to reroll now.

Pretty much what keeps me from ever trying it again. However, from what I gather, "combat" isn't really what the game is "about" per se?

[Canopy185]

It's interesting. I prefer healing in WoW (it's so boring in FF14) but dps in FF14 is more engaging imo. Black Mage for instance is just a sublime spin on Arcane Mage at level 80 that has made it impossible for me to go back to my WoW Mage. Some dps are clunky to me, like Summoner, but overall I give FF14 the edge. If I went back to WoW it would be for the healing.

[trapmaster]

It's ALRIght for me, it just gcd that feels so slow. So i rather stick gambling at gold saucer till maxed then log off. Me want some jumbo cactuar

[Katchii]

Pretty much what keeps me from ever trying it again. However, from what I gather, "combat" isn't really what the game is "about" per se?

It depends on what you mean by "clunky."

Combat is slower than WoW, and has more buttons to press which makes it more involved, but I personally wouldn't call it clunky. After you know the class well, they play very smoothly, it just takes a while to get there, which admittedly is a problem. Clunky to me means that no matter how long you play or how well you know it, the controls are still unwieldy and awkward and I don't feel FFXIV is that way at all. That's not to say things couldn't be improved, but IMO they're far from clunky.

The game is primarily a story driven game, but the combat is nothing to sneeze at either, it unfortunately just takes a LONG time to get to the good stuff because it's all locked behind the story. I do wish they'd do something about that, because at this point there's just far too much story in the way to get to end game, and I'm sure it's keeping a lot of players from picking this game up.

If story just isn't your thing, then I don't personally recommend this game for you, but there are those who don't give two shits about story that love this game for the end game content and either buy skip potions or just spacebar and rush through the story as fast as they can to get there.

[Rogalicus]

That's not to say things couldn't be improved, but IMO they're far from clunky.

Depends on class. NIN's mudras are clunky as hell thanks to bad tickrate and idiotic queuing that lets you easily fuck up ninjutsu. Some classes have buttons that do nothing except giving you another button to press, e.g. Jump -> Mirage Dive, Dream Within a Dream -> Assassinate, Suiton -> Trick Attack and so on. RDM's proc system is absolutely terrible, you get Verstone/Verfire proc the same moment when you ideally want to press it, also it's three buttons for essentially the same thing. Sliding back and forth between rear and flank feels terrible, especially on MNK. Speaking of MNK, while it's probably the best combo implementation among all classes (as it allows you to mix and match chains based on the stance and what you want to do), having every effect on different cooldown feels terrible, as well as not being able to use positionals in open world (outside of True North). Healers really suffer from lack of properly working mouseover macro, at least they should bring an option to use something what WAR had: separate targets for healing and dealing damage simultaneously.

[Katchii]

Depends on class. NIN's mudras are clunky as hell thanks to bad tickrate and idiotic queuing that lets you easily fuck up ninjutsu. Some classes have buttons that do nothing except giving you another button to press, e.g. Jump -> Mirage Dive, Dream Within a Dream -> Assassinate, Suiton -> Trick Attack and so on. RDM's proc system is absolutely terrible, you get Verstone/Verfire proc the same moment when you ideally want to press it, also it's three buttons for essentially the same thing. Sliding back and forth between rear and flank feels terrible, especially on MNK. Speaking of MNK, while it's probably the best combo implementation among all classes (as it allows you to mix and match chains based on the stance and what you want to do), having every effect on different cooldown feels terrible, as well as not being able to use positionals in open world (outside of True North). Healers really suffer from lack of properly working mouseover macro, at least they should bring an option to use something what WAR had: separate targets for healing and dealing damage simultaneously.

Mudras and positionals I'll give you. The rest just sounds like combat styles you dislike, or wish were different because you're used to other playstyles, this is not the same as "clunky" to me. But as I said before, people have different definitions of clunky, yours and mine seem to differ in this case.

[Wrecktangle]

the rotations in a vacuum aren't very complicated, but how they line up with fight mechanics and other jobs is where the real skill gap is.

If you look at the summoner resources, every single boss has a different demi summon timing line up
dear god SMN in TEA makes my brain hurt.

Ninja has spots where it pushes and delays trick attack

Dragoon has times it delays or pushes its redeye phase (standard is to hold the first one to line up with trick attack)

You're 100% right, but overall this is no different than any other complex PVE game, WoW included so I feel it's overall irrelevant to the discussion.

this can be true of any game with mechanics though. using cooldowns at a bad point in the fight will always cause issues in your dps regardless of the game. it may or may not be more punishing in ffxiv than wow, depending on the fight.

I'd be curious if anyone's ever done the math on SMN. For instance, as a Ret, back in Legion (haven't done the math since), on average each fight ~63% of my total damage done was during my cooldown phases, so misusing/playing them was catastrophic to your total output. Not only that but good usage in a M+ setting was even more dramatic to total output done.

Honestly, i hope they don't prune too much. I'd rather they just pit the combos in a single button like in pvp and story segments. That would reduce what is like 9 buttons to 3 on the case of combo based jobs without removing abilities.

Also, in this note i will disagree with who says ffxiv jobs aren't more complex. Playing a Dragoon with 2 different combos, buffs to manage, positionals to manage, off gcd abilitied, several damage cooldowns to manage and all without weak auras... compared to say a ret paladin with it's 4 abilities, 45sec cd and wings. Yeah... there is no comparison.
"Positionals are annoying" they might cry. Everyone has an ability that allows you to ignore positionals. It's skilful to use it. Just like the one that negates knockback. FFXIV melee classes have vastly more depth.

There's a huge comparison and I say this as an ex top 20 US Ret, and a DRG who held top parses in ARR/HW before I switched to PLD because I got tired of positionals. I wish I had my old post I made on this exact topic (circa Legion), it broke it down quite effectively. Let me first start with the fact that both roles are brainless if you simply do the bare minimum (push lit up buttons on cd, press oGCDs on cd, etc.) If you choose not to optimize in either game, both are trivial to mash buttons to reasonable success. I know this because I've literally tested it in both games.

Now that we've discussed the skill floor, let's talk about the ceiling. The thing about this is that the ceiling isn't in the jobs in FF14, it's almost always because of the encounter, not the job due to their rigidity (exceptions for certain jobs, DRG not one of them). In WoW, it's micro resource managements, handling decision fatigue, and especially in Ret's case, clashes.

Ret has much more depth in just 4 buttons than the DRG does in nearly 6 times that because you have to make sure you're following the priority (which is not fixed), not overcapping CS charges, but not exhausting them when able, and then managing tight clashes, which become especially apparent during burst windows when extra abilities become available, all while not overcapping resources. Not only that, but the various different talents that are more optimal in certain fight lengths, gear loadouts, etc. that are just even more depth having to know multiple talents and playstyles.

This doesn't count shit like uptime that exists in both games and handling diverging mechanics, etc. Not only that, but WoW fights tend to be significantly faster paced and more dynamic (less rigid dance mechanics) and thus decision fatigue is significantly more prevalent. If I'm being a brat, the hardest part of being a DRG is making sure my tether macro goes off without a hitch because they don't know where to place datacenters for half the population.

Now, don't misunderstand I love both games and have plenty of criticism for both. I dislike how bloated and static FF14 feels and I dislike how pruned WoW feels. I think they both stand to gain something from each other and the perfect combat system is somewhere in between them. I've got loads of ideas about all kinds of neat combat items if you wanted to discuss them sometime.

i mean... youre trying pretty hard to contradict yourself there, saying that positionals add "complexity" then say theres a cooldown to remove them. its called true north and lasts 10 seconds, has 2 charges, and a 45 second recharge. this means you can ignore them less than 1/4 of the time in a long fight. this doesnt change the fact that it can easily be on cooldown and the boss can spin like a damn top at exactly the right moment to miss a positional. so no, positionals dont add complexity. theyre annoying, at best.

Personally I agree. Positionals are the #1 reason I don't play melee anymore. #2 is because PLD is a tank.

Pros

1) They add some extra difficulty/skill gradients.
2) They are interesting thematically.

Cons

1) You can't even really use them in most solo content.
2) More than half the jobs don't use them (layer of inconsistency).
3) The netcode makes it janky sometimes, especially when bosses turn to target allies with mechanics, etc.
4) They've repeatedly nerfed the consequences of missing them due to player frustrations.
5) Some encounters ignore them completely and just give full credit (another layer of inconsistency, and also makes going back to normal fights annoying)

I just don't see where the benefits outweigh the design constraints and frustrations.

[Malix Farwin]

this can be true of any game with mechanics though. using cooldowns at a bad point in the fight will always cause issues in your dps regardless of the game. it may or may not be more punishing in ffxiv than wow, depending on the fight.

Well let me stop you right there. WoW doesnt use a rotational system but just a priority system so the only time you feel punishment is when you die during a CD. where as on 14 anything that causes you to stop dps can punish you and it takes a lot of practice to figure out when you should push and hold thing. So they are fundamentally different. Even when WoW used to have rotations they were easy.

[Nasuuna]

You're 100% right, but overall this is no different than any other complex PVE game, WoW included so I feel it's overall irrelevant to the discussion.
.

other than Heroism, the group buffs have been scrapped

[Sevarin]

Well let me stop you right there. WoW doesnt use a rotational system but just a priority system so the only time you feel punishment is when you die during a CD. where as on 14 anything that causes you to stop dps can punish you and it takes a lot of practice to figure out when you should push and hold thing. So they are fundamentally different. Even when WoW used to have rotations they were easy.

friend. certain bosses in wow DO in fact go immune etc in wow. if you burn cooldowns and this happens, you are losing a massive amount of damage, since many classes in wow are based around mediocre damage with huge cooldown burst windows.

the thing you quoted is me talking about cooldown usage, not rotations. many things in ffxiv (bahamut on summoner for example, lots of buildup to release him) are essentially cooldowns. bahamut can be held just like any other cooldown, and often times should be. if were talking about a job that im far more familiar with, machinist for example... i dont want to pop a 50-100 battery queen when the boss is about to take off, even if it is essentially in my rotation and not an actual cooldown. however, i can sit on it like it is a cooldown. same with hypercharge. while not *technically* cooldowns, they should be treated as such and held.

the same is true of wow cooldowns. if a mechanic is coming up where something goes immune or takes off for a while, you should hold your cooldowns or you will lose lots of dps. as for the thing about stopping your rotation in ffxiv... at worst you usually lose about 7.5 seconds if it takes so long that your combo resets and you have to start from the beginning of that particular combo. its not as big of a deal as youre making it out to be. does it suck? absolutely. but most of the time people probably wouldnt even notice the dps loss unless its in the beginning of a fight, or you let stacks of something (which is avoidable with pretty much every job now i believe?) drop. monk being possibly? the worst offender with just a 15 second timer on greased lightning stacks, when several cutscenes last longer. note that is only true of cutscenes with the changes to form shift.


knowing fights is important in both games and can GREATLY influence dps. im not sure if youve played wow or if you are just going by what youve heard... while a fair bit more rare than in ffxiv where things go immune on the majority of fights, it does happen in wow as well.

[alturic]

If story just isn't your thing, then I don't personally recommend this game for you, but there are those who don't give two shits about story that love this game for the end game content and either buy skip potions or just spacebar and rush through the story as fast as they can to get there.

This is probably the second reason, never care about story in any game.

[Katchii]

This is probably the second reason, never care about story in any game.

Which is fair, not everyone needs to (or should) like the same things.

If it's not your thing, it's just not your thing. No shame in that.

[Malix Farwin]

friend. certain bosses in wow DO in fact go immune etc in wow. if you burn cooldowns and this happens, you are losing a massive amount of damage, since many classes in wow are based around mediocre damage with huge cooldown burst windows.

the thing you quoted is me talking about cooldown usage, not rotations. many things in ffxiv (bahamut on summoner for example, lots of buildup to release him) are essentially cooldowns. bahamut can be held just like any other cooldown, and often times should be. if were talking about a job that im far more familiar with, machinist for example... i dont want to pop a 50-100 battery queen when the boss is about to take off, even if it is essentially in my rotation and not an actual cooldown. however, i can sit on it like it is a cooldown. same with hypercharge. while not *technically* cooldowns, they should be treated as such and held.

the same is true of wow cooldowns. if a mechanic is coming up where something goes immune or takes off for a while, you should hold your cooldowns or you will lose lots of dps. as for the thing about stopping your rotation in ffxiv... at worst you usually lose about 7.5 seconds if it takes so long that your combo resets and you have to start from the beginning of that particular combo. its not as big of a deal as youre making it out to be. does it suck? absolutely. but most of the time people probably wouldnt even notice the dps loss unless its in the beginning of a fight, or you let stacks of something (which is avoidable with pretty much every job now i believe?) drop. monk being possibly? the worst offender with just a 15 second timer on greased lightning stacks, when several cutscenes last longer. note that is only true of cutscenes with the changes to form shift.


knowing fights is important in both games and can GREATLY influence dps. im not sure if youve played wow or if you are just going by what youve heard... while a fair bit more rare than in ffxiv where things go immune on the majority of fights, it does happen in wow as well.

Its not in the same universe as FFXIV. ive been playing both game since they launched. I am well aware that certain bosses go immune in WoW. you are underestimating the magnitude of both games. Delaying a CD on WoW is a LOT better than doing it on 14.

I don't know if you've played 14 or wow or even both because if you did then this wouldn't even be a debate. They both cost dps but the SCOPE is WAY different because over WoW is Far less reliant of burst windows than 14 and more importantly wow doesn't run on a rotation system but priority system.

Want me to go into even more detail okay lets use E8S as an example. If you are more than a couple GCDS off on SMN or worse a death you will not have Demi Bahamut for the add phase and forced to use Phoenix instead which is much worse and just ruins your pacing for the entire fight as well as likely costing your whole raid the 10% dps bonus from killing all adds.

Comparing that to WoW fight encounters have average durations and because of that you have a set number of times you can use your CDs as long as you use those CDs those set amount of times it will NOT be a dps loss. You are free to delay them but more importantly delaying your CDs on WoW does mess up the pacing of your "rotaiton" because WoW runs on a Priority system. They are even in the same universe in terms of losing out on dps. Me delaying my Darkglare is not even in the same universe as me delaying Summon Demi Bahamut or Firebird.

P.S.: Yes ive played WoW(likely longer than you have since i started in 2005) and ive started 14 since 1.0 when it was bad and i do ingame content on both so good luck trying to pull that "m not sure if youve played wow or if you are just going by what youve heard" crap on me when you are the one who is lacking the perspective on both games. I am not even going to address the rest of the stuff you said because you said reduced bahamut to "just any other cooldown".

[Sevarin]

I am not even going to address the rest of the stuff you said because you said reduced bahamut to "just any other cooldown".

so basically because bahamut is essentially a cooldown youre upset that someone pointed it out. gotcha.

id also like to point out that summoner and monk are in such a bad state mechanically right now that they are literally reworking them IN THE MIDDLE OF AN EXPANSION. since you seem so fixated on summoner and no other job, i hope you enjoy that.

P.S.: Yes ive played WoW(likely longer than you have since i started in 2005) and ive started 14 since 1.0 when it was bad and i do ingame content on both so good luck trying to pull that "m not sure if youve played wow or if you are just going by what youve heard" crap on me when you are the one who is lacking the perspective on both games.

honestly at this point theres no sense in even trying to talk to you since you seem to have an extreme amount of bias. but still, lol at this comment. even as someone that was playing day one of release, i dont assume that ive been playing longer than anyone. i wasnt in alpha or beta, after all.

ive also played ff14 since arr, excuse me for not playing the dumpster fire that was 1.0, where it was such trash they literally had to take bahamut, blow up the world, and remake it. then put the original people that played in the credits to apologize publicly, to which i might add i know people that have changed their names to avoid being linked to playing 1.0. playing in 1.0 doesnt mean anything in ff14, considering its not the same game anymore. they may as well have renamed it to ff15 and moved on.

[Saltysquidoon]

FF14's rotations are bloated (like I know people fearmonger about pruning but it this even a debate) but when you actually get hands-on with them most play far more intuitively then they look on paper although they are almost universally rigid in a way that can feel archaic.
WoW's priority lists tend to have fewer buttons but the resource management and lower gcd tend to make combat more dynamic (and feel tighter)

One is not intrinsically superior to the other and there are a whole host of other factors besides combat one should consider when comparing the games. I will say just stating that in most cases FFXIV having more buttons arbitrarily makes it better is some is intrinsically flawed.
Not only is it often used as a weird fallacious appeal to nostalgia when comparing the two games (hey WoW player, remember when wow was good and rotations were complex?) but pressing a button that contributes nothing to the flow of a job simply because it exists to be pressed is just a wasted button.

[Drench]

Ya I felt the same. It was terrible.