The covenant system and choices that matter

[sunnycutie]

Blizzard seems to want two things to be the case. For choices to matter, and for there to not be cookie cutter builds, where everybody just ends up with the same talents choices. Those things seem to be linked together. After all, if there is a cookie cutter build, and you are basically forced to pick certain talents, then you can't really choose whichever talent you personally want.

But I still feel like Blizzard doesn't quite realize that the covenant system will probably do the opposite of what they want to achieve. I usually just pick whatever talents I feel are the most fun to me and don't care too much about guides. But one of the reasons I can afford to do that is because I can switch talents so easily. If my choices are "wrong", I can easily fix that.

However with the covenant system I will now more so than ever pay real attention to what's best, because I don't want to be stuck with the wrong choice. They want our decisions to matter. But if our decisions matter, that means you can't afford to pick the suboptimal choice. It matters too much.

[Malkiah]

and then you can change covenants 7 times a week, so for the purposes of cookie cutting yourself (which is what you're proposing) it's a complete non-issue.

this is why either/or choices are stupid in MMOs, because it's fundamentally impossible to ever make two different-but-equal talents, and so you're always going to end up with one that is the 'right' choice and one that isn't. there is literally no way to not have this happen, unless you have two talents that are identical excepting cosmetic flavor.

[sunnycutie]

and then you can change covenants 7 times a week, so for the purposes of cookie cutting yourself (which is what you're proposing) it's a complete non-issue.

you can't, it takes two weeks to change

I don't get your point.

[Baconeggcheese]

and then you can change covenants 7 times a week, so for the purposes of cookie cutting yourself (which is what you're proposing) it's a complete non-issue.

this is why either/or choices are stupid in MMOs, because it's fundamentally impossible to ever make two different-but-equal talents, and so you're always going to end up with one that is the 'right' choice and one that isn't. there is literally no way to not have this happen, unless you have two talents that are identical excepting cosmetic flavor.

I think you're confusing the recent conduit change with covenants.

[Soon-TM]

For a decade, WoW has trained its playerbase to minmax the #$&@ out of their toons, unless they are happy with not running anything besides normal raids and random BGs. And all of a sudden, devs don't want us to minmax anymore, all in the name of some nebulous concept of Meaningful Choices™.

It is really weird, it feels as coming out of the blue, and it also has heavy vibes of the attempted suppression of flight back in WoD.

[sunnycutie]

For a decade, WoW has trained its playerbase to minmax the #$&@ out of their toons, unless they are happy with not running anything besides normal raids and random BGs. And all of a sudden, devs don't want us to minmax anymore, all in the name of some nebulous concept of Meaningful Choices™.

It is really weird, it feels as coming out of the blue, and it also has heavy vibes of the attempted suppression of flight back in WoD.

The worst thing is, like I tried to say in the OP, the way this system is set up, it makes me want to minmax more, because if the choices are harder to change, I wanna make sure it's the right one.

[arkanon]

For a decade, WoW has trained its playerbase to minmax the #$&@ out of their toons, unless they are happy with not running anything besides normal raids and random BGs.

So, like, the majority of the playerbase? Im not saying you are wrong, but remember, Blizzards design philosophies ≠ community enforced standards. For example, the skill and gear required to clear normal ≠ what the community would expect of you, and that hasnt changed. Remember needing a gearscore higher than any of the gear a raid dropped? Remember needing an achievement proving you have killed the final boss of a raid to raid with a group who were progressing on the 4th boss?

Again, im not saying you are wrong, just that there are different ways of viewing these thigns.

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The worst thing is, like I tried to say in the OP, the way this system is set up, it makes me want to minmax more, because if the choices are harder to change, I wanna make sure it's the right one.

Do you think thats what they WANT you to do? Do you think that = meaningful choice? And to be fair, this is like the 50th thread with EXACTLY the same conversation. Just read one of those, its all been said before.

[Malkiah]

I think you're confusing the recent conduit change with covenants.

yep i sure was!

though the overall point remains that you can still swap both covenants and conduits and soul binds (some more often than others) so at the end of the day there's still going to a mathematically "best" choice and it's still going to be kind of stupid that the system is built this way.

[Revamp Man]

the covenants are so class defining and impactful that they are disabled for 90% of the game

[Echo of Soul]

Blizzard seems to want two things to be the case. For choices to matter, and for there to not be cookie cutter builds, where everybody just ends up with the same talents choices. Those things seem to be linked together. After all, if there is a cookie cutter build, and you are basically forced to pick certain talents, then you can't really choose whichever talent you personally want.

But I still feel like Blizzard doesn't quite realize that the covenant system will probably do the opposite of what they want to achieve. I usually just pick whatever talents I feel are the most fun to me and don't care too much about guides. But one of the reasons I can afford to do that is because I can switch talents so easily. If my choices are "wrong", I can easily fix that.

However with the covenant system I will now more so than ever pay real attention to what's best, because I don't want to be stuck with the wrong choice. They want our decisions to matter. But if our decisions matter, that means you can't afford to pick the suboptimal choice. It matters too much.

It has a lot more to do with identity. Identity doesn't work if you can change it every 5 seconds even if you opt not to.
It's like in real life, if I'm really in to board games it becomes a part of my identity (I become "the board game" guy) but if I'm in to board games one day, cars another day and hockey another day none of them really becomes part of who I am.
With increased flexibility the identity part of the game has all but disappeared. You're no longer a pom/pyro mage, you're just a mage.

The RPG genre is pretty much built around building how your character plays and making that part of your identity. That's why people on forums just as this one have been asking for years "Is WoW even a RPG anymore?". I understand that a lot of players especially in the high end scene don't want WoW to be a RPG, I don't understand why but I understand that they do.

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Do you think thats what they WANT you to do? Do you think that = meaningful choice? And to be fair, this is like the 50th thread with EXACTLY the same conversation. Just read one of those, its all been said before.

That's very much the case. If you don't have to commit then it's no longer meaningful. Sure it could be meaningful for the next 5 minutes but that's not really what we're talking about here. Long term meaning by definition has to involve a certain amount of commitment. If I choose to go to the gym today it could be meaningful today but for it to be meaningful for the rest of my life I have to keep going there.

[sunnycutie]

It has a lot more to do with identity. Identity doesn't work if you can change it every 5 seconds even if you opt not to.

And how do covenants strengthen my identity as a mage?

Also, Blizzard has said that they want choices to matter and that they don't want cookie cutter builds, so you can't just dismiss that by saying "it's about identity". If they cared that much about class identity they'd dehomogenize classes.

[Echo of Soul]

And how do covenants strengthen my identity as a mage?

Also, Blizzard has said that they want choices to matter and that they don't want cookie cutter builds, so you can't just dismiss that by saying "it's about identity". If they cared that much about class identity they'd dehomogenize classes.

I'm not saying that it's a perfect implementation or even a good one but at least it's a step in the right direction.

[Armourboy]

For a decade, WoW has trained its playerbase to minmax the #$&@ out of their toons, unless they are happy with not running anything besides normal raids and random BGs. And all of a sudden, devs don't want us to minmax anymore, all in the name of some nebulous concept of Meaningful Choices™.

It is really weird, it feels as coming out of the blue, and it also has heavy vibes of the attempted suppression of flight back in WoD.

Actually reminds me more of Cata changes where they tried to add difficulty back into heroics by limiting threat, healing and needing CC. They are trying to push the clock back and since Blizzard seems to forget its past mistakes, here we go again.

[sunnycutie]

I'm not saying that it's a perfect implementation or even a good one but at least it's a step in the right direction.

If it's a step in the right direction, then it must do something to make class identity stronger. What does it do?

[Baneto]

Meaningful Choice is the new buzzwords someone coined at a meeting at Blizzard.

Its like when a child finds a new favorite word, and cannot stop saying it all of the time.

[Echo of Soul]

If it's a step in the right direction, then it must do something to make class identity stronger. What does it do?

Not class, character. For example in Skyrim if I choose to focus on stealth and archery that becomes a part of my characters identity, he becomes a stealth archer based on the choices I made. If I could change him into a destruction focused caster from one pack to the next then my choices would become meaningless since they held no weight.

I'm not saying the covenant system is anywhere near that good in terms of identity and immersion but their intention is there and that's what's important. Rome wasn't built in a day, in the next expansion we could get a fully fleshed out really good identity building system like subclasses for example. This is probably just a testing ground for a much larger future overhaul to the entire class/spec system.

[Raelbo]

It's a tricky one, to be sure.

Minmaxing is basically the antithesis of being able to make meaningful choices in a game in which it would be more fun to be able to do so. And unfortunately, the way the playerbase is, people will flock to whatever the flavour of the week/month/tier is based on what is perceived to be "the best".

Maybe what this game needs a system that dynamically adjusts according to how popular choices are, reducing the effectiveness of whatever happens to be the most popular, while enhancing the effectiveness of what is less popular. That way, the players who will always min-max will actually end up becoming the agents who result in balance, leaving the rest of us to make choices based on preferences without feeling like we're being punished for it.

[Nachtigal]

For a decade, WoW has trained its playerbase to minmax the #$&@ out of their toons, unless they are happy with not running anything besides normal raids and random BGs. And all of a sudden, devs don't want us to minmax anymore, all in the name of some nebulous concept of Meaningful Choices™.

It is really weird, it feels as coming out of the blue, and it also has heavy vibes of the attempted suppression of flight back in WoD.

The playerbase is responsible for where we are today. Not WoW, not Blizzard.. We the players. Blizzard does not tune things so tightly that the requirements/expectations of pug leaders/raid leaders/guild leaders are where they are.

[Raelbo]

So, like, the majority of the playerbase? Im not saying you are wrong, but remember, Blizzards design philosophies ≠ community enforced standards. For example, the skill and gear required to clear normal ≠ what the community would expect of you, and that hasnt changed. Remember needing a gearscore higher than any of the gear a raid dropped? Remember needing an achievement proving you have killed the final boss of a raid to raid with a group who were progressing on the 4th boss?

Do you think thats what they WANT you to do? Do you think that = meaningful choice? And to be fair, this is like the 50th thread with EXACTLY the same conversation. Just read one of those, its all been said before.

The playerbase is responsible for where we are today. Not WoW, not Blizzard.. We the players. Blizzard does not tune things so tightly that the requirements/expectations of pug leaders/raid leaders/guild leaders are where they are.

Agreed. The idea that Blizzard somehow trained us to act this way is absurd.

[Nachtigal]

I do agree with the op though in the sense of choices mattering more, it makes me want to be less free with how I play my game, aligning me with those who I’d normally never acquaint.

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I think honestly what we need more than Blizzards hand guiding us through the game... Those that want to progress and play at their own discretion need to advertise themselves better. Stick their necks out, so that other likeminded players can find them, and join up.

The game can be played (in most situations) however you want, you just need the skill to do it. The community is far to unforgiving (generally) and that makes it hard for people to feel comfortable trying.

Though if you were to advertise in such a way in a “Hey no shame in your game, come as you are!” kind of way, and if an individual is clearly holding the group back, kick em out, gently. (Or teach them, if you have the patience of course)


And Blizzard should handle aggressive toxic trolls that would surely enter these groups to .. well .. troll.. in such a way that it is heavily deterred.

TL;DR: People need to learn some fuckin manners lol