What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Feanoro]

My point to the original poster was that felling judgement on an entire race/faction for the actions of their upper crust is not exactly PC. Else the NE's and by extension BE's, i guess, would be in a world of trouble.

The division between Average Joe Night Elves and the Highborne is established canon. Do you have something to indicate a similar divide in the Forsaken? Other than gameplay NPCs such as the various profession trainers and vendors, there's no civilians as such like a normal society.

[Nevad]

The division between Average Joe Night Elves and the Highborne is established canon. Do you have something to indicate a similar divide in the Forsaken? Other than gameplay NPCs such as the various profession trainers and vendors, there's no civilians as such like a normal society.

I never disputed the divide of the normal Night Elves and the Highborne, the Highborne were essentially the most powerful nobility of the Night Elves. However would you really make a jump in logic to think that every forsaken has the same amount of influence? That there is no division of rank within the Forsaken society?

Also are we going to discuss a society through a gameplay perspective or a in-universe perspective, seeing as you brought up profession trainers and vendors? Cause the gameplay one makes no sense, at least to me so i would need you to explain that one to me. There have been plenty of civilian NPCs involved in quest that range from Frosaken farmers to tailors to town-guards.

[Feanoro]

I never disputed the divide of the normal Night Elves and the Highborne, the Highborne were essentially the most powerful nobility of the Night Elves. However would you really make a jump in logic to think that every forsaken has the same amount of influence? That there is no division of rank within the Forsaken society?

Given there's nothing to suggest a stark division in the Forsaken like there was with the Highborne, making assumptions that there is would be headcanon.

Also are we going to discuss a society through a gameplay perspective or a in-universe perspective, seeing as you brought up profession trainers and vendors?

I said "other than", meaning excluding those NPCs because they exist for gameplay purposes, not story.

[Aucald]

The division between Average Joe Night Elves and the Highborne is established canon. Do you have something to indicate a similar divide in the Forsaken? Other than gameplay NPCs such as the various profession trainers and vendors, there's no civilians as such like a normal society.

There are a number of NPC's simply tagged as "Forsaken Refugee" following the Undercity's destruction - these would be civilian Forsaken who are neither professional trainers nor vendors, and offer no services other than dialogue. Refugees similarly appeared when the Undercity was taken in Purtress and Varithmathas' coup back in WotLK - showing that even though they're not often seen in-game, there is a population of non-combatant and non-merchant Forsaken.

[Nevad]

Given there's nothing to suggest a stark division in the Forsaken like there was with the Highborne, making assumptions that there is would be headcanon.

Other than the Desolate Council and Royal Apothecary Society there does indeed not seem to be a any real royal faction within the Forsaken. However original point was that you cant blame an entire race for the actions of their leaders, or more accurately here leader.

I said "other than", meaning excluding those NPCs because they exist for gameplay purposes, not story.

Fair enough my bad. However i do find it hard too imagine there is no real divide between individuals when it comes to influence and power within the Forsaken society. Otherwise are we going to assume that in the old NE society that there were only commoners and nobles? Of course not, a farmer does not have the same influence as that of a priest. The same as a normal Forsaken farmer does not have the same influence as a, for example, Dark Ranger. Headcanon or not.

[Feanoro]

Other than the Desolate Council and Royal Apothecary Society there does indeed not seem to be a any real royal faction within the Forsaken. However original point was that you cant blame an entire race for the actions of their leaders, or more accurately here leader.

Unless I misunderstood, Sylvie essentially had the Council murdered. The RAS is her research department, and certainly responsible for a LOT of Forsaken actions.

Sure, you can't blame every individual, well and good. The problem is that thinking seems to always lead to "well, it's too hard to know who participated, so let's just let them off scott free" in regards to the Horde. None of the evil Warchiefs acted alone. Since the Forsaken are not a normal society, and hopefully no one would try to claim otherwise, they may have noncombatants, but that doesn't automatically mean they weren't involved in Forsaken goals. Given their entire theme is working tirelessly in undead fashion towards their goals, it's necessary to explicitly point out civilians, as they would be the exceptions to the rule.

Fair enough my bad. However i do find it hard too imagine there is no real divide between individuals when it comes to influence and power within the Forsaken society. Otherwise are we going to assume that in the old NE society that there were only commoners and nobles? Of course not, a farmer does not have the same influence as that of a priest. The same as a normal Forsaken farmer does not have the same influence as a, for example, Dark Ranger. Headcanon or not.

So long as we acknowledge those ARE assumptions, not stated facts.

I'm saying though the comparison is a bit flawed. The Highborne were explicitly a separate upper class and thus didn't deign to tell the "peasants" (which clearly included both priests like Tyrande and farmers) what they were doing.

The Forsaken have no such upper class, and a simple walk around Undercity would have been enough for any of them to have at least SOME idea of ongoing projects. I can't imagine that the RAS torturing and poisoning living subjects was a tidy affair with no screams, for example. There were no shortage of quests throughout Classic - Wrath that talked about work on the Blight, so it's also hard to imagine the average Forsaken had some knowledge of it, maybe not in depth.

[Nevad]

Unless I misunderstood, Sylvie essentially had the Council murdered. The RAS is her research department, and certainly responsible for a LOT of Forsaken actions.

The council did lose a lot of members when they met with Calia but u don't think they were completely decimated so they should still exist in some capacity but then again Blizzard might have forgotten about them so who knows. I do agree about the RAS.

Sure, you can't blame every individual, well and good. The problem is that thinking seems to always lead to "well, it's too hard to know who participated, so let's just let them off scott free" in regards to the Horde. None of the evil Warchiefs acted alone. Since the Forsaken are not a normal society, and hopefully no one would try to claim otherwise, they may have noncombatants, but that doesn't automatically mean they weren't involved in Forsaken goals. Given their entire theme is working tirelessly in undead fashion towards their goals, it's necessary to explicitly point out civilians, as they would be the exceptions to the rule.

The poster i was first quoting did profess for a complete annihilation of the Forsaken as a race so that's where my argument for the "well, it's too hard to know who participated" came from. I did however not say anything about getting of scot free though i can see how it could have been interpreted that way. Also no none of the evil Warchiefs acted alone and here we see the, shall we call it lackluster, writing of these characters. Where from our point of view of having pretty much all information we could discern that these people are not fit to lead.

Why Lorthemar was not made Warchief makes my head spin. Could be some lore reason behind that that i am unaware of but from my point of view he seemed the most qualified. But hey Mueh'zala (i think?) whispered in Vol'jins ear and Sylvanas showed some leadership on the Broken Shore so hey everyone's OK with it.

So long as we acknowledge those ARE assumptions, not stated facts.

I'm saying though the comparison is a bit flawed. The Highborne were explicitly a separate upper class and thus didn't deign to tell the "peasants" (which clearly included both priests like Tyrande and farmers) what they were doing.

The Forsaken have no such upper class, and a simple walk around Undercity would have been enough for any of them to have at least SOME idea of ongoing projects. I can't imagine that the RAS torturing and poisoning living subjects was a tidy affair with no screams, for example. There were no shortage of quests throughout Classic - Wrath that talked about work on the Blight, so it's also hard to imagine the average Forsaken had some knowledge of it, maybe not in depth.

Fair they are assumptions made since Blizzard has not stated otherwise.
But lets make one more assumption in that most Forsaken, and Horde members by extension, probably don't have free reign of the Undercity to walk where they please. Players do cause you know it's a game and the true scale of every city is not true to actual scale. The experiments were made in the Apothecarium which are located in the bottommost depths of the Undercity. In a world with magic i don't think its a too big of a stretch that sound could be blocked, but again its an assumption and not stated fact. Most assumptions stem from Blizzard not fleshing out everything so it leaves us as players to fill in the gap.
There are a lot of quests involved with the Blight but most of those come from the Apothecaries i believe, now that would of course not exclude the chance that the average Forsaken knows about the Blight in some capacity. But that is also an assumption so /shrug again Blizzard needs to flesh out the lore more.

Side note personally i am a bit torn about the Blight, yes it is a abhorrent biological weapon but in World of Warcraft with the amount of dangerous beings and magic that exists i can see the need for it from a purely practical standpoint. Individuals in this universe can decimate entire cities alone.

[Sorrowseer]

Reading through some of this thread just compaunds the issues and reasons why i dislike the herd in general, there really are so many things they got off lightly and if you point it out as bias then someone jumps out to argue why its not, like here is an example, not specificly the herd but clsoe:

Grommash hellscream commited genoccide against the draenei and frostwolf orcs, this continued for most of the expansion then the elgion gets pulled out of guldans arse and the last patch becomes an into to the next expansion, Grommash is tied up and ticked by a fel lord, we kill it, he gets a trphy of the fel lord he did not kill (obviously) and at the end when we the champsions deal with old archy boi grom is standing around like he fought a hard battle and is a great guy.

No consequences.

No. Consequences.

Thats just one example and as I said really not herd but herd adjacent, a named charcter, the same applies in different forms for the actual herd, its never 'their' fault, its always some rogue every time, jump out and point out a thousand reasons why but its true, no consequences. The tagline for the herd should not be honour or whatever, it should be no consequences.

[Soon-TM]

The tagline for the Horde should not be honour or whatever, it should be no consequences.

The "no consequences" tag applies to both Horde AND Alliance (and for a handful of third parties as well). What were the consequences for NEs for sending their troops to kick BEs when they were down during BC? What were the consequences for Varian's reckless declaration of war at the Undercity, when it were NEs who took the brunt of the Horde's attack, while Varian was depicted as this great military leader when he hadn't fought in any battles, nor did he have any military training? What were the consequences for Jaina after the Purge of Dalaran? Or for Genn breaking the ceasefire at Stormheim? Or for Anduin when he cocked the siege of Lordaeron?

Try to be a little less biased next time

[Powerogue]

There are a number of NPC's simply tagged as "Forsaken Refugee" following the Undercity's destruction - these would be civilian Forsaken who are neither professional trainers nor vendors, and offer no services other than dialogue. Refugees similarly appeared when the Undercity was taken in Purtress and Varithmathas' coup back in WotLK - showing that even though they're not often seen in-game, there is a population of non-combatant and non-merchant Forsaken.

They made a point in BFA to show that there were forsaken who still held to their emotions vs those that let vengeance consume them, and I really hope that we continue with that rather than simply saying all the cruel ones were loyalists and they're dealt with now, that would be dreadfully anticlimactic. After all, my forsaken DK doesn't want to go pick peacebloom, he wants to eat Sylvanas's face off after her betrayal.

(Though he can multi-task. He has herbalism.)



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No. Consequences.

Did you play the mag'har scenario? His consequences just took a while to get back to him.

[Ardenaso]

Did you play the mag'har scenario? His consequences just took a while to get back to him.

I wouldn't actually count that; Yrel's crusade had nothing to do with Grom's warmongering 30 years ago

[Raisei]

Why Lorthemar was not made Warchief makes my head spin. Could be some lore reason behind that that i am unaware of but from my point of view he seemed the most qualified. But hey Mueh'zala (i think?) whispered in Vol'jins ear and Sylvanas showed some leadership on the Broken Shore so hey everyone's OK with it.

Probably it got out that he personally negotiated with Varian for a return of the Belf's into the Alliance after Theramore. In my experience the Horde (or at the very least the playerbase) does not differentiate between betraying a psychopathic dictator and a good leader, so they would not have accepted him. Better to follow a psychotic Banshee instead.

Infracted.

[Vaedan]

The "no consequences" tag applies to both Horde AND Alliance (and for a handful of third parties as well). What were the consequences for NEs for sending their troops to kick BEs when they were down during BC? What were the consequences for Varian's reckless declaration of war at the Undercity, when it were NEs who took the brunt of the Horde's attack, while Varian was depicted as this great military leader when he hadn't fought in any battles, nor did he have any military training? What were the consequences for Jaina after the Purge of Dalaran? Or for Genn breaking the ceasefire at Stormheim? Or for Anduin when he cocked the siege of Lordaeron?

Try to be a little less biased next time

Well, there were some consequences for actions you mentioned. In fact, all you mentioned was either Alliance's reaction to Horde (thus a consequence for the Horde) or a catalyst for the Horde to make some decision. Almost nothing of that happened purely from Alliance's innitiative with a clear goal and acceptance from the whole faction.

- We still don't know why night elves went to QT and what was their goal here. On the Alliance, you never find out night elves were here. On the other hand, we discovered there were night elves in QT for help in the past.
- Varian declaring a war was an answer to Wrathgate. At that point, it was unclear who is truly responsible and Varian wanted answers And retribution for lives Alliance lost there. It was a consequence of Horde not being able to handle its own people.
- Purge of Dalaran was answer to Horde's abuse of Dalaran's neutrality (thus a consequence for Horde's doing). The consequence for this was blood elves declining Varian's offer to rejoin Alliance and opposing Kirin Tor fiercely on Isle of Thunder.
- Genn attacking Sylvanas was again consequence for Forsaken invading his nation, killing his son and making his country uninhabitable. It was delayed action, most likely reignited by the role they believed Sylvanas had on Broken Shore (in Alliance PoV, it looked like she abandoned them and left them to be overrun by the Legion, resulting in Varian's death). I somewhat suspected that the dreadlord in Shaw's disguise may had a part in that, pushing the attack, but it was never confirmed.
- Anduin leading attack on Lordaeron was an answer to Teldrassil, so once again consequence for the Horde.

So aside from night elves in Quel'thalas, which were never really explained, all you had was Alliance answering Horde. The problem is that Horde is always forgiven and can go back to their "Alliance will never like us so se need to kill them, burn their babies alive, put survivors into slavery and raise dead". Why any neutral faction stood against that is just beyond me.

[Lolites]

The problem here is that there are various people who refuse to understand the damage this faction has done

can be said about alliance too...

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[QUOTE=Darth-Piekus;52677434]A faction that has done more damage than the Scourge or the Legion/QUOTE]

you know NOTHING about lore, do you?
legion destroyed multiple WORLDS... how is anything horde did or will do in next thousand years (bcs burning legions is present for several milenia and does nothing but destroy the whole time) even CLOSE to that level of destruction?!

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- We still don't know why night elves went to QT and what was their goal here.
- Varian declaring a war was an answer to Wrathgate Varian wanted answers
- Purge of Dalaran was answer to Horde's abuse of Dalaran's neutrality
- Genn attacking Sylvanas was again consequence for Forsaken invading his nation, killing his son and making his country uninhabitable.
- Anduin leading attack on Lordaeron was an answer to Teldrassil, so once again consequence for the Horde.

1. Sure, lets pretend there is friendly reason to scoop around belfs defense systems (sanctums)...
2. so he wanted answers, but instead of getting informations he rushed into war... even if he didnt believe Sylvanas, looking for answers would be MUCH more helpful than STARTING war against your temporary allied faction...
3. you know JAINA and aliance USED dalaran "neutral" forces to move divine bell to ALLIANCE CITY and defend it there despite being neutral? totaly hordes fault right? bcs that happened before horde went through...
4. not saying Genn didnt have reasons to want Sylvanas dead BUT atacking your ally in time of war is a fucking war crime, no matter you motivation... it was even AGAINST anduins order and Genn didnt even get scolded...
5. atack on Lordaeron you are correct was consequence of Hordes action

so at least 3 of the cases are "started" by alliance and you tried to twist it like its hordes fault... still wanna pretend you are not biased and that alliance is punished when they do something?

[Vaedan]

1. Sure, lets pretend there is friendly reason to scoop around belfs defense systems (sanctums)...
2. so he wanted answers, but instead of getting informations he rushed into war... even if he didnt believe Sylvanas, looking for answers would be MUCH more helpful than STARTING war against your temporary allied faction...
3. you know JAINA and aliance USED dalaran "neutral" forces to move divine bell to ALLIANCE CITY and defend it there despite being neutral? totaly hordes fault right? bcs that happened before horde went through...
4. not saying Genn didnt have reasons to want Sylvanas dead BUT atacking your ally in time of war is a fucking war crime, no matter you motivation... it was even AGAINST anduins order and Genn didnt even get scolded...
5. atack on Lordaeron you are correct was consequence of Hordes action

so at least 3 of the cases are "started" by alliance and you tried to twist it like its hordes fault... still wanna pretend you are not biased and that alliance is punished when they do something?

1) No, I don't told that they were trying to be friendly in TBC. My point was that we don't know what they were up to and on Alliance side, we never even learn of night elf presence here. What it looked like was that night elves were spying on blood elves and managed to damage some sanctums in the process. If that was intentional or was just a collateral damage, we don't know. Their intention and the goal of their presence in Quel'thalas was never explained. I agree blood elves were right to kill them off. The thing is - night elves in Quel'thalas does not seem to be official action on Alliance behalf and it was mostly used as a means to build a path for blood elves, a race historicaly tied to the Alliance, into the Horde.
2) It was reckless thing to do, I believe Varian suffered from his split personality at the time, being unable to control Lo'gosh side fully, but not sure how much it factored into his decision here. It would sure be more helpful to do some diplomacy first, but then again, if that is the problem in Varian's case, I'm sure you'd find it a problem when Garrosh and Sylvanas decided to declare war as well. Either of them did not have valid reasons for starting war without some diplomacy.
3) There is actually BIG difference if ALLIANCE used portals to ALLIANCE cities on neutral place and HORDE using portals to ALLIANCE cities on neutral place. If Alliance used Horde portals in Dalaran for their own ends, that would be the same case. It was not and it was the reason why Kirin Tor got angry. Transporting a cargo you previously acquired to your own territory is deffinitely not a violation of Dalaran's neutrality. Abusing Dalaran's portal network to infiltrate your enemy and steal an artifact in their holding and expect Kirin Tor will be happy about it is pretty naive.
4) I agree there should be consequences for Genn on that, given Anduin's stance peacemaking view and especially considering we were under Legion's Invasion. It seemed this was more of Genn's personal vendetta, which is OK for me, but truth is that Anduin should punish him for that. It is right we find out that Sylvanas was up to no good in the end, but we didn't know it before the attack, so some punishment should be there.

So as I said earlier, safe for night elves in Quel'thalas, all of these events were based on previous Horde actions against the Alliance, so simply put, Horde reaped what they sowed. I'm not saying Alliance should not be held accountable either on most of these events, but the difference is that if you look at it, when Alliance acts it is usually just response to previous Horde actions and it is usually just some separate group on their personal goal (like in case of Genn or night elves).

I also did not even try to pretend anything. I have no problems admitting I favor Alliance more, but it does not prevent me to look at things objectively and take Horde's PoV into consideration. I play both factions, so I actually can compare narratives from both factions and with every expansion, Horde storytelling gets more and more pushed into nonsensical aggression while Alliance is forced to forgive everything they had to endure. It is very much proved of what Horde got to destroy during few expansions, and what Alliance managed to destroy.

[Soon-TM]

@Vaedan you completely missed my point. I'm not talking about who's "guilty", I'm talking about some pretty boneheaded, or frankly questionable actions from Alliance characters which had exactly zero consequences for them, whether they were right or not is absolutely secondary.

[Nevad]

Reading through some of this thread just compaunds the issues and reasons why i dislike the herd in general, there really are so many things they got off lightly and if you point it out as bias then someone jumps out to argue why its not, like here is an example, not specificly the herd but clsoe:

Grommash hellscream commited genoccide against the draenei and frostwolf orcs, this continued for most of the expansion then the elgion gets pulled out of guldans arse and the last patch becomes an into to the next expansion, Grommash is tied up and ticked by a fel lord, we kill it, he gets a trphy of the fel lord he did not kill (obviously) and at the end when we the champsions deal with old archy boi grom is standing around like he fought a hard battle and is a great guy.

No consequences.

No. Consequences.

Thats just one example and as I said really not herd but herd adjacent, a named charcter, the same applies in different forms for the actual herd, its never 'their' fault, its always some rogue every time, jump out and point out a thousand reasons why but its true, no consequences. The tagline for the herd should not be honour or whatever, it should be no consequences.

Seems like the one you should be disliking is Blizzard since they are the once writing the story :P (and Grom did help with fighting Archimonde)

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Probably it got out that he personally negotiated with Varian for a return of the Belf's into the Alliance after Theramore. In my experience the Horde (or at the very least the playerbase) does not differentiate between betraying a psychopathic dictator and a good leader, so they would not have accepted him. Better to follow a psychotic Banshee instead.

Depends on what character i am playing, my fire mage? sure fire and mayhem all the way. My paladin? nah fam miss me with that psycho shit. Throwing the entire player base under the bus because of how you see it seems a bit anecdotal.

[Vaedan]

@Vaedan you completely missed my point. I'm not talking about who's "guilty", I'm talking about some pretty boneheaded, or frankly questionable actions from Alliance characters which had exactly zero consequences for them, whether they were right or not is absolutely secondary.

Alright. Some of these events had their own consequences though, like night elves operating in QT helped to push blood elves into the Horde (thus making enemies with blood elves) and Purge of Dalaran also leading to blood elves neglect Varian's offer to rejoin Alliance.

The only event without any meaningful consequence was Stormheim.

My point is also that when Alliance do something, it's almost always as an answer. Alliance just does not wake up and way "What a lovely sunday morning? What shall we do today? Oh yes, let's raid Horde today." That's what Horde usually do. I'm not saying it's good storywritting, but certain level of proactiveness would be welcomed change for the Alliance. I also guess many Horde players would enjoy not being a cause of pointless war every expansion or two.

[Powerogue]

I wouldn't actually count that; Yrel's crusade had nothing to do with Grom's warmongering 30 years ago

He's dead now specifically because of the consequences of his warmongering 30 years ago. Literally killed by one of the draenei he enslaved.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The "no consequences" tag applies to both Horde AND Alliance (and for a handful of third parties as well). What were the consequences for NEs for sending their troops to kick BEs when they were down during BC? What were the consequences for Varian's reckless declaration of war at the Undercity, when it were NEs who took the brunt of the Horde's attack, while Varian was depicted as this great military leader when he hadn't fought in any battles, nor did he have any military training? What were the consequences for Jaina after the Purge of Dalaran? Or for Genn breaking the ceasefire at Stormheim? Or for Anduin when he cocked the siege of Lordaeron?

Try to be a little less biased next time

Ne’s sending troops to mess with the BE’s lead to them joining the horde so a direct consequence that alliance still deals with.

Varian declaring war on the horde lead to south shore being destroyed The defies coming back due to the war taxing resources from the common man and other hard ships.

Purge of dal stopped the blood elfs from rejoining the alliance and redoubled the distaste between them and the alliance which we see with that one elf in the war of thorns.

Genn breaking the ceasefire was used as a catalyst for sylvanas to start the war of thorns.

Anduins handling the siege of lorderon lead to a bunch of troop deaths and the continuation of the war.

All of these had very real consequences, AU grom not so much.