[Spoiler] ...now mindcontrolled?

[GrimReaper673]

Garrosh and Sylvanas are/were pretty central figures to Horde lore, yet here we are.

Yes, but I don't care about the Horde.

[Soon-TM]

Yes, but I don't care about the Horde.

Yes, but both Horde and Alliance are central to the franchise, so you will have to deal with.

You can enjoy your ultimate plot armor... For the time being. Writers say that they want to give more story focus to the Alliance, and you have already seen what is the only kind of "story focus" that Danuser&co. are capable of

[Feanoro]

Yes, but both Horde and Alliance are central to the franchise, so you will have to deal with.

You can enjoy your ultimate plot armor... For the time being. Writers say that they want to give more story focus to the Alliance, and you have already seen what is the only kind of "story focus" that Danuser&co. are capable of

Yes, the most powerful empire in Azeroth's history is reduced to farming pumpkins for Stormwind. Remember, Danuser thinks GoT S8 was great.

[The Butt Witch]

Not with Golden in charge.

Well he's male and white after all, so he's definitely not safe with the current writing team that Blizzard has.

[Feanoro]

Well he's male and white after all, so he's definitely not safe with the current writing team that Blizzard has.

I have no doubt that he's woke enough to constantly apologize for those two things.

[Sorrowseer]

I like Anduin and I really don't understand why people don't, its like being hipster for the sake of being hipster, he is an examplar but being good is seen as bad and boring by people... it really confuses me, what would they rather have, some dude witha goatee a big metal axe and spikey armour?

[Feanoro]

I like Anduin and I really don't understand why people don't, its like being hipster for the sake of being hipster, he is an examplar but being good is seen as bad and boring by people... it really confuses me, what would they rather have, some dude witha goatee a big metal axe and spikey armour?

People don't like him largely because he's a Purity Sue, and is the Horde's greatest cheerleader.

I'll give a few examples:
Teldrassil burned and the Night Elves are nearly wiped out. Not one word from Anduin until Tyrande confronts him. Saurfang, the butcher who led the campaign that slaughtered its way through Ashenvale and Darkshore, dies. Anduin can't run fast enough to carry his body and eulogize him to the Horde.

Saurfang finally acknowledges the Horde has NEVER been honorable, and keeps committing atrocities because the Warchief said so. Anduin immediately absurdly tries to state the Alliance is just as bad, citing Daelin Proudmoore and Arthas. Daelin pursued the orcs when they violently escaped and could have been off to gather their strength to resume the Old Horde's rampage. How evil. Arthas had his soul and will stolen by the Lich King and indirectly the Legion. That only counts as Alliance actions by the most rapid Horde fanboy talking points.

He refuses to press the advantage after BoD to win and end the war, which would save countless Alliance lives. No, instead he backs off to preen about his moral superiority and damns those lives to the Maw.


People do not despise him for no reason. At minimum, both factions detest his self-righteous preaching.

[StationaryHawk]

Daelin pursued the orcs when they violently escaped and could have been off to gather their strength to resume the Old Horde's rampage. How evil.

Daelin's problem was not pursuing his daughter (and the orcs) to Kalimdor, but the way he conducted his campaign upon arriving. Refusing to entertain Jaina's treaty with the Horde, attacking the Echo Isles unprovoked, using Jaina's friendship with Thrall to lure him into an ambush, and attempting to arrest a group sent to parlay with Jaina (who, at the time, was still the leader of Theramore). That the orcs might -not- be attempting to resume their rampage never crossed his mind despite everything that had occurred on Kalimdor prior to his arrival.

He refuses to press the advantage after BoD to win and end the war, which would save countless Alliance lives. No, instead he backs off to preen about his moral superiority and damns those lives to the Maw.

It's Jaina that wanted to back off, and Anduin that decided to continue fighting. Not that it matters, given that the Kul Tiran navy was destroyed shortly afterwards by Azshara.

Otherwise, I don't disagree. Anduin is a pacifist in a story where the writers will never let peace be achieved, which means none of his preaching will ever amount to anything.

[Feanoro]

Daelin's problem was not pursuing his daughter (and the orcs) to Kalimdor, but the way he conducted his campaign upon arriving. Refusing to entertain Jaina's treaty with the Horde, attacking the Echo Isles unprovoked, using Jaina's friendship with Thrall to lure him into an ambush, and attempting to arrest a group sent to parlay with Jaina (who, at the time, was still the leader of Theramore). That the orcs might -not- be attempting to resume their rampage never crossed his mind despite everything that had occurred on Kalimdor prior to his arrival.

Surely you can understand his motivations, these monsters slaughtered their way up an entire continent and were barely stopped. They act lethargic, and suddenly violently escape, destroying every prison camp, showing no mercy to the guards. They sail away and let's just hope they're not rebuilding? No, it would be insanity to simply hope for the best. As you point out, he did not witness what took place because it was long before his arrival, and it's perfectly reasonable for someone to disbelieve a complete and total change of behavior without solid evidence.

As to the treaty, the Orcs had previously made at least one with humans before, specifically the Alteraci, and look how that turned out. As her father, he would be inclined to hope/believe Jaina was simply a naive scholar, rather than a traitor like Aiden Perenolde. The risk of the orcs regaining strength to resume their slaughter was simply too much for any responsible leader to allow. The episode is presented as sympathetic to the orcs but it simply doesn't work, as it completely ignores Daelin's motives and background in favor of reducing him to a cartoon bigot. It's very poorly written.

[StationaryHawk]

They act lethargic, and suddenly violently escape, destroying every prison camp, showing no mercy to the guards.

Thrall gave Blackmoore the chance to surrender, allowed the survivors of Durnholde to leave unharmed, and relayed a message to the Alliance that he was willing to cooperate.

As you point out, he did not witness what took place because it was long before his arrival, and it's perfectly reasonable for someone to disbelieve a complete and total change of behavior without solid evidence.

He had the testimony if his own daughter and every soldier present at Mount Hyjal, and the opportunity to parlay with representatives of the Horde.

As to the treaty, the Orcs had previously made at least one with humans before, specifically the Alteraci, and look how that turned out.

It ended with the Horde upholding their end of the bargain.

I'm not saying Daelin didn't have cause to be suspicious, but unconditional aggression against a people isn't a positive character trait.

[Soon-TM]

I like Anduin and I really don't understand why people don't, its like being hipster for the sake of being hipster, he is an examplar but being good is seen as bad and boring by people... it really confuses me, what would they rather have, some dude witha goatee a big metal axe and spikey armour?

Elaborating on what @Feanoro said, if you read what a Purity Sue is, you can have maybe a couple of hints about why Anduin is disliked, not only among Horde fans, but also among at least some Ally ones as well.

[cparle87]

They villain batted Jaina the second she decided maybe the Horde aren't all fluffy innocent lambs, then chickened out, left her out of Legion, and had her revert to peacenik after BoD. Tyrande's getting the same thing, she's somehow wrong for wanting justice for what the Horde did to her people. She'll either be a raid boss to satisfy the twenty year theme of "fighting back or even saying mean things about the Horde is the worst crime possible in Warcraft" or she'll suddenly forgive an attempted genocide and be "redeemed".

Turalyon will get the same treatment, since their idea of "morally gray" is "Good is also Evil!" a la Diablo 3. Raid boss or castrated. Either way, he and Alleria should never have come back, only to be ruined.

Also, don't trust an agent of the Void to tell the truth.

You do know there's area between wanting to genocide the other side and being a "peacenik" as you put it? It's not binary. Jaina killed lots of Sylvanas loyalists after BoD even as she mended fences with Thrall and came to believe again that peace was possible. Way I see it she's pretty much back to her pre-Theramore self, with some added character development that will hopefully keep her from going full-on "drown a capital city" if something bad happens to someone she cares for.

As for the villain bat they also did it to Yrel. Having Turalyon go full-on Scarlet Crusade like Yrel did is not outside the bounds of reality.

- - - Updated - - -

Elaborating on what @Feanoro said, if you read what a Purity Sue is, you can have maybe a couple of hints about why Anduin is disliked, not only among Horde fans, but also among at least some Ally ones as well.

Except he's not a Purity Sue. People throw Sue labels on anything they don't like, as if it applying the label is some kind of "I Win" button for an argument. In the very first expansion he had character development in his recklessness caused Alliance forces to have to search all over a continent for him, he mind controlled one of his own kind to get away, his naivete almost got him killed by Garrosh, his overdeveloped sense of right and wrong allowed Garrosh to live and thus lead to all the events from WoD onward. You could even argue that his giving Sylvanas the chance to surrender (and thus escape) was more out of a lack of will to do what he knew needed to be done than out of any innate goodness.

[Soon-TM]

Except he's not a Purity Sue. People throw Sue labels on anything they don't like, as if it applying the label is some kind of "I Win" button for an argument. In the very first expansion he had character development in his recklessness caused Alliance forces to have to search all over a continent for him, he mind controlled one of his own kind to get away, his naivete almost got him killed by Garrosh, his overdeveloped sense of right and wrong allowed Garrosh to live and thus lead to all the events from WoD onward. You could even argue that his giving Sylvanas the chance to surrender (and thus escape) was more out of a lack of will to do what he knew needed to be done than out of any innate goodness.

Since you actually didn't read anything of what I linked, I will make a quick briefing for you.

• Incorruptible Pure Pureness is the theme here. Aka Anduin being the epithome of the well-meaning, naive but uncompromising leader.
• It is a character that is intentionally made by the author to be overly positive. Much like Sylvanas, and now the Jailor, are the cartoon, one dimensional moustache twirling villains, Anduin is their necessary counterpart, the representantion of everything that's good and just in Azeroth.
• They almost never have any flaws that actually affect them in a way that truly matters, usually going for endearing traits such as "clumsiness" or naïveté, instead getting overloaded with overwhelmingly positive but largely passive traits. While Anduin can !@#$ up a lot of things, he never has to face any consequences for it. Which btw goes back to MoP, when he started receiving some Story Focus™
• The character will usually be soft-spoken, have a pleasant voice, and be mild-mannered. Just listen to his VO.
• Like all Mary Sues, she doesn't do enough to justify the positive response. Everybody in the Alliance, and even in the Horde are fawning over Anduin, and if anyone doesn't, is quickly branded as "consumed by vengeance", and sooner or later will come to agree with Anduin, or will be struck with the villain bat.
• It's less about the character's actions and more just about everybody's fascination with the character. Anduin does very little by himself, yet everyone is drooling at him. Did you see the end of the Ally war campaign? Even the Horde rebels reach for him, not just because of mutual interest concerns, but also because Anduin comes out as Saurfang's psychoanalist. Because who better to discuss the Horde's history than the leader of the enemy faction?.

Comments in italics.

[cparle87]

Since you actually didn't read anything of what I linked, I will make a quick briefing for you.



Comments in italics.

I did read your tvtropes link, I'm quite fond of reading the site myself. I just disagree with pretty much all your points. This is what you do. You take a character, boil away all nuance and subtlety to them, then try to portray your self-made caricature as the real thing. Your sig quotes are further evidence of that. You've already decided what the characters are before they've even done anything, such as your description of the Jailer in the second period. Everything he does in the expansion is going to be colored by that because you've already made up your mind about him.

For instance for your comment that the Horde is "fawning over him". As for the psychoanalyst statement, that's kind of the point. People are too close to their own problems to see things clearly. That's kind of why the entire profession even exists. So someone on the outside can look in.

[Verdugo]

I did read your tvtropes link, I'm quite fond of reading the site myself. I just disagree with pretty much all your points. This is what you do. You take a character, boil away all nuance and subtlety to them, then try to portray your self-made caricature as the real thing. Your sig quotes are further evidence of that. You've already decided what the characters are before they've even done anything, such as your description of the Jailer in the second period. Everything he does in the expansion is going to be colored by that because you've already made up your mind about him.

For instance for your comment that the Horde is "fawning over him". As for the psychoanalyst statement, that's kind of the point. People are too close to their own problems to see things clearly. That's kind of why the entire profession even exists. So someone on the outside can look in.

And you are trying to give nuance to a character that has zero. What fucking nuance does Anduin have.

[Soon-TM]

And you are trying to give nuance to a character that has zero. What fucking nuance does Anduin have.

I have the feeling that someone in the writing team has realised that they went too far with Anduin and the Purity Sue trope in BfA, hence the bits about him being OK with prisoners being tortured, and him using shadow/void magic in Shadows Rising. If that's actually the case, I just hope they don't make a Thrall 2.0, i.e. a character who was wrecked after being a textbook Mary Sue (back in Cata, in Thrall's case).

[Hubbl3]

He refuses to press the advantage after BoD to win and end the war, which would save countless Alliance lives. No, instead he backs off to preen about his moral superiority and damns those lives to the Maw.

Ending the war there would also save countless Horde lives. Not ending the war in BoD is such a stupid decision >.>

[Varodoc]

If Anduin will be mind-controlled in the future, it will be at the hands of the eternal Void and not some little imprisoned jailer. As shown in the Vision of Stormwind, Alleria Windrunner has the power to corrupt the entirety of Stormwind, Anduin included. Wrathion mentions how he doesn't want to come close to the corrupted Stormwind Keep, because "there are some things that are best not seen". In that dystopian future, Anduin too fell to the corruption of Alleria and her master.

Though I hope Alleria's mental fortitude remains intact, should the worst happen then Anduin cannot be saved from what is to come.

[Feanoro]

Ending the war there would also save countless Horde lives. Not ending the war in BoD is such a stupid decision >.>

If Anduin had only realized that, he would have ended it immediately. Anything to save his beloved orcs.

[kingsizexx]

is this available in new update?