9.0 General Discussion

[huth]

It was not a black or white portrayal by any means, other than when Xe'ra tried to talk him up as some kind of savior, and that was quickly kiboshed both due to community reaction and because it's a fundamental misunderstanding of the character's appeal.

I'm not sure that was ever meant to be taken literally, particularly since Xe'ra's story didn't even match up with the events she herself showed us. Seems more likely it was supposed to be a hint that she wasn't entirely connected to reality.

[Vakir]

I'm not sure that was ever meant to be taken literally, particularly since Xe'ra's story didn't even match up with the events she herself showed us. Seems more likely it was supposed to be a hint that she wasn't entirely connected to reality.

Very possible. Either way, the way Illidan has been presented is very, very different from Sylvanas. He has his moments, cackling and calling people "trembling mortals" after he takes down Mags and the like, but he definitely never seemed to relish in what was being done, even when it was purely for selfish reasons and power grabs. Characters the players are meant to empathize with are still extremely critical of him and his book depicts his entire last hours in Black Temple as very strongly in part his fault for shutting down, completely decompensating, and communicating horribly. There is no "Christ figure" going on here.

They are laying on thiiiiick where she's been going. Like, triple decker tiramisu thick. I'd love for more nuance, but they kinda wrote themselves into a corner on this one. I just wish I understood why @Ersula has been like this. Hell, even with certain things being outright proven with more information (like the Jailer actually being evil and the Big Bad), they don't even publicly concede it, they just change their argument.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't really mind them pushing a character super hard as just insanely evil with very little redeeming factor. Its enjoyable to watch, sure I'm mad at the deeds themselves but there's appeal to fighting something that can't be reasoned with.

[Vakir]

I don't really mind them pushing a character super hard as just insanely evil with very little redeeming factor. Its enjoyable to watch, sure I'm mad at the deeds themselves but there's appeal to fighting something that can't be reasoned with.

Yeah, it's a core fantasy trope to sometimes have the presence of evil, and sometimes it's valuable to have character reactions to, and events stemming from, a force that defies usual reason or ethics. Extreme circumstances can yield interesting dynamics.

Should it have been a character as (mostly) popular and beloved as Sylvanas before she became insanely polarizing? Maybe. But whether it was a good idea or not, I'm just so over and irritated by people playing mental gymnastics with this crap. It's not even personal anger directed at the character at this point; I've grown to be more irritated with the writers because they actually exist. It's just personal frustration with arguments not being based in fucking reality.

[Revamp Man]

I don't really mind them pushing a character super hard as just insanely evil with very little redeeming factor. Its enjoyable to watch, sure I'm mad at the deeds themselves but there's appeal to fighting something that can't be reasoned with.

i wanna find arthas and when jaina tries to call him back he reveals taht he did exactly what he wanted with no manipulation

[Vakir]

i wanna find arthas and when jaina tries to call him back he reveals taht he did exactly what he wanted with no manipulation

We know that isn't true, sadly.

[formerShandalay]

Very possible. Either way, the way Illidan has been presented very, very differently from Sylvanas. He has his moments, cackling and calling people "trembling mortals" after he takes down Mags and the like, but he definitely never seemed to relish in what was being done, even when it was purely for selfish reasons and power grabs. People the characters are meant to empathize with are still extremely critical of him and his book depicts his entire last hours in Black Temple as very strongly in part his fault for shutting down, completely decompensating, and communicating horribly. There is no "Christ figure" going on here.

They are laying on thiiiiick where she's been going. Like, triple decker tiramisu thick. I'd love for more nuance, but they kinda wrote themselves into a corner on this one. I just wish I understood why @Ersula has been like this. Hell, even with certain things being outright proven with more information (like the Jailer actually being evil and the Big Bad), they don't even publicly concede it, they just change their argument.

I think this is mostly because of Sylvanas's backstory and because we actually saw it happen. We know that she was a genuine person when she was still alive, with flaws and her share of hubris, yes, but she was as good a person as you can get in Warcraft back then. Everyone who played through WC3 and everyone who read 'Rise of the Lich King' knows what happened and kind of experienced it in first person. People identified with it, saw what happened and sympathized with Sylvanas because she was the victim of a horrible crime. This stuck.
Then you see Sylvanas fall from grace more and more and you know why it happens, you feel that they deserve to at some point be delivered from their own personal hell, you still feel you should pity Sylvanas, rather than wish her the worst. She is still a victim, even though she is becoming a monster and you should not hate a victim. What many people don't realize is that you can become what you hate, exactly because you are a victim. Opressed becomes opressor, victim becomes perpetratior, that's a story as old as mankind, but it is an unpleasant story, because ultimately it means you should not hate 'perpetrators', because they were at one point victims. So... what do you do? You see only the victim side, never the ugly monster said victim turned into. Or only the monster side, because you don't want to pity a monster.
And if you believe Sylvanas is right and justified in her actions, then it's not a far stretch to also believe that the Jailer might be right and justified. Or at least hope he is, because if he is simply lying and using Sylvanas, then that's even harsher towards the former victim on her 'justified' rampage.

[gunner_recall]

Well, seems they're going back on the change regarding covenant abilities outside shadowlands. It was pretty clear the reactions were mostly negative.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ands/668623/59

So...the way this reads...and I'm probably just stretching here but...

This sounds like covenant abilities might end up sticking around past SL.

[Vakir]

And if you believe Sylvanas is right and justified in her actions, then it's not a far stretch to also believe that the Jailer might be right and justified. Or at least hope he is, because if he is simply lying and using Sylvanas, then that's even harsher towards the former victim on her 'justified' rampage.

I get it, and I'm totally with you on why the dissonance exists. There's ways, even, of doing a "victim becomes who victimized them" story in a better way.

The way to do it...just...isn't "they never did anything wrong except the means."

[Aeluron Lightsong]

In fairness though sometimes a victim of abuse in real life becames a future abuser.

[razorpax]

I was thinking the first ones would be the first dead: Natal Titan souls who were corrupted & died before they could be born. Like the void worlds we see in the Star Auger fight.

And people say "Titans don't die" but clearly they can, as that's the entire conceit of BFA & the planet getting stabbed

I think the titans have a basic rebirth cycle

They exist and when they naturally die they go back to the planet cycle to be reborn again.

The titans are probably the first ones buuuut I think it’s Argus and Azeroth only and the Arbiter and jailer are keepers

[Doffen]

Well, seems they're going back on the change regarding covenant abilities outside shadowlands. It was pretty clear the reactions were mostly negative.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ands/668623/59

Yeah, good on them to react so fast on it too.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think the titans have a basic rebirth cycle

They exist and when they naturally die they go back to the planet cycle to be reborn again.

The titans are probably the first ones buuuut I think it’s Argus and Azeroth only and the Arbiter and jailer are keepers

You had me in the first half.

[razorpax]

Question: I noticed that the daily callings also give renown, is that part of the catch up mechanic or just a beta quirk?

A beta quirk I think
Renown comes from 2 weekly quests unless you are behind
It also comes from the campaign quests

Also if they don’t change exp then you guys better get used to war mode

[formerShandalay]

I get it, and I'm totally with you on why the dissonance exists. There's ways, even, of doing a "victim becomes who victimized them" story in a better way.

The way to do it...just...isn't "they never did anything wrong except the means."

That's right of course, the problem I see with this is I kind of can't see how Blizzard can get any more direct with their message of: don't follow a leader, follow a principle and if your leader loses their principles, don't question your principles, question your leader instead (or "what is worth fighting for") without angering even more people, because they are trying to teach lessons.
And also, if you're trying to be subtle about things and only leave hints, lots of people are going to overlook those and later say you were inconsitent. If you're not being subtle, but make it clear that your character is being mislead (like in the quests with Abercrombie and Stitches or Drakuru) you have people like me getting angry that my character is so stupid

[razorpax]

You had me in the first half.

Think about two things
“She is not the last but the first”
And
“Existence beyond memory”

Supports rebirth

The design of the arbiter and the jailer justifies the the keeper idea especially with how Argus describes everything through his few dialogue lines.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

So...the way this reads...and I'm probably just stretching here but...

This sounds like covenant abilities might end up sticking around past SL.

Nha sounds like they nted to make the loss easier to swallow but we want the pain.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Nha sounds like they nted to make the loss easier to swallow but we want the pain.

I read the thread where Watcher clarified about the covanents, one person was legit trying to argue being able to use conduits and covanent stuff outside of SL is immersion breaking.





I'm...a big lore junkie but I literally don't feel that way.

[formerShandalay]

I read the thread where Watcher clarified about the covanents, one person was legit trying to argue being able to use conduits and covanent stuff outside of SL is immersion breaking.





I'm...a big lore junkie but I literally don't feel that way.

I mean, I get what they wrote about the swolekin in Orgrimmar, but the veil is supposed to be broken and the powers of the Shadowlands have more freedom on Azeroth proper, so... why should the powers from the Shadowlands suddenly not work? They even have a built in 'switch' to turn them off again at the end, that is when at least some kind of barrier is re-established and said powers stop working within 'reality' again.

[Revamp Man]

We know that isn't true, sadly.

actually based on the books it is

at one point his good side was winning the whole "fight for the soul" but he chose to kill it. He also chose to kill nerzhul. He was doing everything if not entirely of his own free will then at least partially and it wasnt even the jailer until he got the helm so he did everything from culling strat to killing uther and leaving his men to die in northrend while abandoning his dwarf friend completely on his own