1. #63961
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    actually based on the books it is

    at one point his good side was winning the whole "fight for the soul" but he chose to kill it. He also chose to kill nerzhul. He was doing everything if not entirely of his own free will then at least partially and it wasnt even the jailer until he got the helm so he did everything from culling strat to killing uther and leaving his men to die in northrend while abandoning his dwarf friend completely on his own
    He didn't have his soul back when "killing Ner'zhul" The book also said he got rid of the last remaining parts of humanity in him but that was contradcited so no this isn't really accurate.
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  2. #63962
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    He didn't have his soul back when "killing Ner'zhul" The book also said he got rid of the last remaining parts of humanity in him but that was contradcited so no this isn't really accurate.
    it was contradicted by the one cutscene in the forge of souls or wahtever when tyrion said there was a small part of humanity left or do you mean something else??

    as far as i can tell he never really lost his soul because if he did then the bastion cinematic makes no sense
    i understand losing parts of it slowly but even as recent in his story as his walk up to ICC he was human enough to get pissed when fighting illidan and Kael.
    I mean its like in star wars saying kylo killing his daddy was his final step to the dark side but not a sith(only mentioned because the writing point with contradiction is on the same level)
    His soul and his humanity existed in him for a large amount of awful choices he made that someone like jaina would convince herself was not his own choice and this includes many choices made before frostmourne.

  3. #63963
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    actually based on the books it is

    at one point his good side was winning the whole "fight for the soul" but he chose to kill it. He also chose to kill nerzhul. He was doing everything if not entirely of his own free will then at least partially and it wasnt even the jailer until he got the helm so he did everything from culling strat to killing uther and leaving his men to die in northrend while abandoning his dwarf friend completely on his own
    Vol. 3 contradicts this through his first person narration. Arthas thought he was in control and he was not.

    The reason is that the Helm of Domination is the tool of the Jailer. Arthas was a puppet the whole time. He thought he made those decisions, but he truly was being influenced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    In fairness though sometimes a victim of abuse in real life becames a future abuser.
    1000%. It's insanely common. Hurt people hurt people. If the path to Sylvanas being a misunderstood victim was intended...they shouldn't have amped the actions TOO high, y'know? Ugh. It's a no win scenario.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2020-10-09 at 02:36 AM.

  4. #63964
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    it was contradicted by the one cutscene in the forge of souls or wahtever when tyrion said there was a small part of humanity left or do you mean something else??

    as far as i can tell he never really lost his soul because if he did then the bastion cinematic makes no sense
    i understand losing parts of it slowly but even as recent in his story as his walk up to ICC he was human enough to get pissed when fighting illidan and Kael.
    I mean its like in star wars saying kylo killing his daddy was his final step to the dark side but not a sith(only mentioned because the writing point with contradiction is on the same level)
    His soul and his humanity existed in him for a large amount of awful choices he made that someone like jaina would convince herself was not his own choice and this includes many choices made before frostmourne.
    He didn't have his soul, once he picked up Frostmourne he wasn't totally in control. The Bastion cinematic was to show that part of Uther's soul was in Frostmourne and such a power isn't supposed to be on a mortal world. By the time Frostmourne was shattered the cinematic showed the more acceptance of all that transpired started to come back but Uther still put him in the Maw.

    Arthas fighting Illidan and getting upset doesn't really say anything other then he's pissed.



    Vol. 3 contradicts this through his first person narration. Arthas thought he was in control and he was not.

    The reason is that the Helm of Domination is the tool of the Jailer. Arthas was a puppet the whole time. He thought he made those decisions, but he truly was being influenced.
    I dunno about being a puppet, just a useful pawn. Course THAT could change if we see Arthas somewhere and he talks about what he saw wearing the helm. I prefer the idea that the LK helm is also just a very powerful "dark" artifact that anyone wearing it isn't the same person before they put it on(See Bolvar during Legion and a bit in BFA being a bit callous and not noble). As for Sylvanas, I think her path is sorta the "trope" that you become the very thing you hate(or hated at some point) and Sylvanas sorta fits that.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2020-10-09 at 02:43 AM.
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  5. #63965
    Arthas not actually acting with free will was even pointed out by... uh Uther? in the halls of Reflection iirc. Uther back then already pointed out that Arthas was merely a presence within the Lich King's mind and that he was dwindling.
    I don't usually particularly like Bellular's lore videos, but he did one a few days ago with this topic and that was actually quite cool.

  6. #63966
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I read the thread where Watcher clarified about the covanents, one person was legit trying to argue being able to use conduits and covanent stuff outside of SL is immersion breaking.





    I'm...a big lore junkie but I literally don't feel that way.
    I can kinda see why if these powers are tied to anima which is a force only in the Shadowlands.

    But yeah tying it just to the Shadowlands would further expose the inherent junk that is post-Legion class design. They are just incomplete without the borrowed powers tacked on.

    And I see no chance they let us keep the powers either. That defeats their entire scheme to keep specs "fresh" and reflexively mask the new issue du jour by rotating in an extra button every expansion.
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  7. #63967
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    In fairness though sometimes a victim of abuse in real life becames a future abuser.
    And there's an interesting story to be told there. But as it is written, Sylvanas's story is not interesting at all. They went far, far too hard on her being a cackling villain that antagonized everyone and everything and even had her somewhat understandable, if ruthless, motives for some of her actions (like Teldrassil) retconned into her wanting as many people dead as possible because she's a bad person. It's too late to make most of us have any sympathy for this particular devil.
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  8. #63968
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    And there's an interesting story to be told there. But as it is written, Sylvanas's story is not interesting at all. They went far, far too hard on her being a cackling villain that antagonized everyone and everything and even had her somewhat understandable, if ruthless, motives for some of her actions (like Teldrassil) retconned into her wanting as many people dead as possible because she's a bad person. It's too late to make most of us have any sympathy for this particular devil.
    Thing is though, even in real life you have former victims acting like cackling villians, inflicting as much pain and torment upon other beings, just because it relieves their own feeling of helplessness for those few moments (without knowing about it, of course, this is not something anyone 'chooses', that is just something that happens to them and they act accordingly). And no, if you are on the receiving end of this, you would not feel sorry for them or pity them... you would hate them with all your heart and wish to inflict upon them what they inflicted upon you... and the circle continues.
    And in the case of a game, you don't even only have the normal human reaction to this, but you have magic and other powers that capitalize upon pain, hatred and the need for revenge, magnify it. Powers that promise to give you the power to inflict upon all the world what has been done to you. Of course you go crazy.

  9. #63969
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    He didn't have his soul, once he picked up Frostmourne he wasn't totally in control. The Bastion cinematic was to show that part of Uther's soul was in Frostmourne and such a power isn't supposed to be on a mortal world. By the time Frostmourne was shattered the cinematic showed the more acceptance of all that transpired started to come back but Uther still put him in the Maw.

    Arthas fighting Illidan and getting upset doesn't really say anything other then he's pissed.





    I dunno about being a puppet, just a useful pawn. Course THAT could change if we see Arthas somewhere and he talks about what he saw wearing the helm. I prefer the idea that the LK helm is also just a very powerful "dark" artifact that anyone wearing it isn't the same person before they put it on(See Bolvar during Legion and a bit in BFA being a bit callous and not noble). As for Sylvanas, I think her path is sorta the "trope" that you become the very thing you hate(or hated at some point) and Sylvanas sorta fits that.
    ok so once he got the sword he was being influenced
    he still made the choices up to that point including the one quest where you see his dead soldiers that he led to northrend

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    Thing is though, even in real life you have former victims acting like cackling villians, inflicting as much pain and torment upon other beings, just because it relieves their own feeling of helplessness for those few moments (without knowing about it, of course, this is not something anyone 'chooses', that is just something that happens to them and they act accordingly). And no, if you are on the receiving end of this, you would not feel sorry for them or pity them... you would hate them with all your heart and wish to inflict upon them what they inflicted upon you... and the circle continues.
    And in the case of a game, you don't even only have the normal human reaction to this, but you have magic and other powers that capitalize upon pain, hatred and the need for revenge, magnify it. Powers that promise to give you the power to inflict upon all the world what has been done to you. Of course you go crazy.
    youre no different from the people who were cruel to you
    youre just a bunch of new cruel people being cruel to some other people who will end up being cruel to you

  10. #63970
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    ok so once he got the sword he was being influenced
    he still made the choices up to that point including the one quest where you see his dead soldiers that he led to northrend

    - - - Updated - - -



    youre no different from the people who were cruel to you
    youre just a bunch of new cruel people being cruel to some other people who will end up being cruel to you
    Yes, that is exactly how this works. With everyone who wishes to repay in kind what happened to them.
    If you were thinking that I was defending Sylvanas's actions, I wasn't. Of course 'former victim-monsters' have to be stopped, or they create more monsters. Which is exactly what Sylvanas has done and, by her own admission in 'A Good War', was even one of her goals. What I am saying is that by wishing upon her what she did to us we become said monsters too, because then it's not about stopping her anymore, it's about making someone else feel our pain and that is how you become a monster.

  11. #63971
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    Yes, that is exactly how this works. With everyone who wishes to repay in kind what happened to them.
    If you were thinking that I was defending Sylvanas's actions, I wasn't. Of course 'former victim-monsters' have to be stopped, or they create more monsters. Which is exactly what Sylvanas has done and, by her own admission in 'A Good War', was even one of her goals. What I am saying is that by wishing upon her what she did to us we become said monsters too, because then it's not about stopping her anymore, it's about making someone else feel our pain and that is how you become a monster.
    do you want to know what you do with that pain???
    should i tell you where to put it??
    you hold it tight until it burns your hand
    and then you say this
    you say noone else will ever have to feel like this
    noone else will ever have to feel this pain
    not on my watch

  12. #63972
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Nha sounds like they nted to make the loss easier to swallow but we want the pain.
    From how he worded t it definitely sounded like the intent behind only making the Covenant ability useable in SL content was to allow it to carry over into the next expansion without either having to make changes then, or nerf it to the ground.

    But I guess that won't happen now. Guess we instead just have to strap in for the usual complaints of the system being gone in the next expansion.

    Or maybe they will push this change again for the 10.0 patch, guess we have to wait and see.
    Last edited by Sondrelk; 2020-10-09 at 07:34 AM.
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  13. #63973
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    From how he worded t it definitely sounded like the intent behind only making the Covenant ability useable in SL content was to allow it to carry over into the next expansion without either having to make changes then, or nerf it to the ground.

    But I guess that won't happen now. Guess we instead just have to strap in for the usual complaints of the system being gone in the next expansion.

    Or maybe they will push this change again for the 10.0 patch, guess we have to wait and see.
    Just do what they are doing with the heart
    Make it not work in new expansion zones although now I’m thinking that the time skip is a possibility

  14. #63974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Listening to Preach's latest video on Systemlands and I'm feeling like I don't care one of cent about Soulbinds/conduits etc. He looks like he's trying to explain something that is so convoluted that his explanation ends up being as confusing as the nature of the monster itself
    The are a couple of issues here:

    1) Some YouTubers, and I know Preach is one of them, are absolutely fucking terrible at explaining things. I've seen wildly unnecessarily long and complicated Preach videos where he "explains" stuff before, or where he chooses some sort of unnecessary metaphor that just clouds things further. This isn't just YouTube. I work with some people like this. I can explain one of our work systems in a way that takes 2 minutes, and everyone gets it. I have a colleague, however, who takes 15 minutes (fucking literally!) and by the end, no-one knows what the hell it does! It's the same system, and he's perfectly competent at using it - he just can't explain it for shit because of how he approaches explaining it.

    2) Some systems are genuinely harder to explain than they are to actually use. This is another thing I know from work. I can immediately think of two systems where the best thing to do is tell people what the intended outcome of the system is, and then to just to get them logged on and using it ASAP, because it's bloody obvious once you're actually using it. Yet if I make a video explaining it, in detail, it's going to be genuinely hard to explain, and you could spend 10 minutes watching my video, and learn/understand less about the system than if you actually used it for like, 2 minutes.

    So I suspect Preach is just, as they say, "making a meal of it".

    Another issue is:

    3) It's directly in the interest of Youtubers to make these systems sound as complicated and intimidating as possible. Directly.

    If they make it sound complicated and intimidating, or even just confusing, people will firstly, watch their long video about it - which Youtube metrics like, and secondly, people will keep coming back to the Youtuber for further explanations and details, and perhaps eventually for a "just put your points here" guide because they're now too scared to try it themselves.

    So yeah...

  15. #63975
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    -snip-
    Have to agree here, it genuinely cannot be that difficult to explain. It is an endgame system similar to Order halls that gives you an active class ability, a generic utility ability and 3 choices of tiny talent trees.

    The only reason it should be difficult to understand is if the person goes on weird tangents in the middle, or genuinely wants it to sound more complicated than it is.
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  16. #63976
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Have to agree here, it genuinely cannot be that difficult to explain. It is an endgame system similar to Order halls that gives you an active class ability, a generic utility ability and 3 choices of tiny talent trees.

    The only reason it should be difficult to understand is if the person goes on weird tangents in the middle, or genuinely wants it to sound more complicated than it is.
    Well as I said the explanation was so convoluted but I think his intention was to going over Blizzard's back and forth with these systems and what ramifications arise from their every move.

    I'm not suggesting the systems themselves are complex - god knows if it were up to me there'd be none - but the way he framed things made it seem like Blizzard entangled themselves in a yarn ball

  17. #63977
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Have to agree here, it genuinely cannot be that difficult to explain. It is an endgame system similar to Order halls that gives you an active class ability, a generic utility ability and 3 choices of tiny talent trees.

    The only reason it should be difficult to understand is if the person goes on weird tangents in the middle, or genuinely wants it to sound more complicated than it is.
    Is the wowhead soulbind calculator or w/e too much for you? Cause I read up on soulbinds and I don't feel "MY BRAIN IT EXPLODES."
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  18. #63978
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I read the thread where Watcher clarified about the covanents, one person was legit trying to argue being able to use conduits and covanent stuff outside of SL is immersion breaking.

    I'm...a big lore junkie but I literally don't feel that way.
    That dude must have his immersion permanently broken then, because there's sooo many things that exist the way they do for gameplay reasons that otherwise wouldn't if it was going for full immersive lore mode.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  19. #63979
    Quote Originally Posted by gunner_recall View Post
    So...the way this reads...and I'm probably just stretching here but...

    This sounds like covenant abilities might end up sticking around past SL.
    Nah, he's just saying they think the hard cut at the end is probably the better solution to the dissonance for the next 2 years.

  20. #63980
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Is the wowhead soulbind calculator or w/e too much for you? Cause I read up on soulbinds and I don't feel "MY BRAIN IT EXPLODES."
    Seems like you're responding to the wrong post?

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