SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[TheFirstOnes]

I mean, didn't the First One's legit make Maldraxxus cause they thought the SL might get fucked by one of their other creations, such as the Light or Void? They kinda shaped everything, and made the Cosmic balance itself.

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Whatever voidy shrooms they gave you - I want them too.

It's not hard to believe that N'Zoth went beyond the levels of Argus there tbh. Especially considering he had full control of the Black Empire, and became the strongest Old God as a result.

[Varodoc]

I actually agree with your list (except for the Jailer thing). The Jailer is 100% stronger than any threat we've seen in WoW, except for MAYBE the Void Lords.

"What can the first ones, or anyone really, do against such power?" They created everything. Pretty sure they don't care about the Void lmao. I mean, it is their own creation. At best, they'll probably aid us a bit in stopping the Void Lords, but at the end of the day, all of creation is their sandbox. Every divine pantheon in each cosmology is, at best, like children to them. To them, we're literally just nothing. They probably don't even acknowledge our existence until SL. Ya know? Where the Jailer's about to take over the entire Cosmic Chart?

I believe it was the clash between the Light and Void that created the cosmos.

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Whatever voidy shrooms they gave you - I want them too.

No you're wrong, the following is stated in the encounter journal of Ny'alotha:

Ny'alotha, the sleeping city, has awakened. For the first time in millennia, N'Zoth sits on his throne within the Black Empire. His armies flood from their dark halls, once again wreaking havoc on Azeroth. As the world shudders from these invasions, a desperate plan is hatched. Champions from the Horde and Alliance are gathered to face this ancient enemy within his own realm for one final confrontation that will decide the fate of the universe.

So N'Zoth was a universal threat. During the Mythic phase, he attempts to merge with the very World Soul of Azeroth. The resulted merged being, Azeroth and N'Zoth, would give birth to the Void Titan, an entity so powerful that it can obliterate all that exists, and the mere thought of a Void Titan drove Sargeras insane. N'Zoth was more powerful and dangerous than Sargeras.

And N'Zoth was a mere minion of the Void Lords. That should tell you how powerful they truly are.

[TheFirstOnes]

I believe it was the clash between the Light and Void that created the cosmos.

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No you're wrong, the following is stated in the encounter journal of Ny'alotha:


So N'Zoth was a universal threat. During the Mythic phase, he attempts to merge with the very World Soul of Azeroth. The resulted merged being, Azeroth and N'Zoth, would give birth to the Void titan, an entity so powerful that it can obliterate all that exists, and the mere thought of a Void titan drove Sargeras insane. N'Zoth was more powerful than Sargeras.

And N'Zoth was a mere minion of the Void Lords. That should tell you how powerful they truly are.

Uhm, Varodoc...

You do realize something made the Light and Void clash, right? The First Ones probably created the Light and Shadow, as, lemme remind you: Light and Shadow are still within the Cosmic Chart, while the First One's aren't.

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It doesn't hurt to assume that these guys are above the Cosmic Chart.

[Varodoc]

Uhm, Varodoc...

You do realize something made the Light and Void clash, right? The First Ones probably created the Light and Shadow, as, lemme remind you: Light and Shadow are still within the Cosmic Chart, while the First One's aren't.

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It doesn't hurt to assume that these guys are above the Cosmic Chart.

They aren't in the cosmic chart because Blizzard hadn't invented them back when the first Chronicles came out. The Eternal Ones weren't in the cosmic chart either, it doesn't mean anything. In truth there was only Light in the beginning, as was stated in the Chronicles:

Before life began and before even the universe existed, there was only the Light. The Light existed as a boundless sea of living energy, swelling across all of existence, unfettered by time and space. Yet as the ever-shifting sea expanded, pockets of cold nothingness appeared, giving birth to a second, opposite force: the Void. The growing tension between the two opposing energies eventually ignited a series of cosmic explosions that gave birth to the physical universe, the Great Dark Beyond.[8]

The Void was then created as the endless sea of shimmering Light eventually gave birth to pockets of cold nothingness.

[TheFirstOnes]

They aren't in the cosmic chart because Blizzard hadn't invented them back when the first Chronicles came out. The Eternal Ones weren't in the cosmic chart either, it doesn't mean anything. In truth there was only Light in the beginning, as was stated in the Chronicles:



The Void was then created as the endless sea of shimmering Light eventually gave birth to pockets of cold nothingness.

The Eternal One's aren't in the Cosmic Chart because literally no one knew about the Death Cosmology (Especially considering the Cosmic side of the Chronicles is confirmed to be viewed from the Titan's perspective).

"Before life began and before even the universe existed, there was only the Light." The Arbiter and the Jailer also existed before Reality became a thing. Doesn't mean they were the only guys there. Also, Light had to have been made by something. The energy had to have been made. Void had to have been created to oppose the Light. What would've caused these 2 sides of occur?

The First Ones. Also, just because they're not in a chart, that doesn't mean anything. The Eternal Ones are still bound to Death, which means they are still bound to the Cosmic Chart. And Light, the primal force that existed before creation began (This applies with beings like the Jailer and the Eternal Ones as well, but they're another topic), is still part of the Cosmic Chart. The Cosmic Chart shows the forces that keep everything together, yes. But, what made these forces? What caused them to be polar opposites but equal? Ya know? The Chronicles only showed us a beginners view of the Warcraft Cosmos. What we're seeing in SL and beyond is the actual in depth view of it all.

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They did SHAPE the Cosmos, meaning they made it something when it was once nothing. They made the Light and Shadow. Come on now.

[Nagawithlegs]

I'm starting to think the Jailer/Sargeras parallels are intentional and he may be some kind of alternate timeline version of him to tie in to the lingering "infinite" theme thats in the background of the expansion.

The First Ones being Titan ripoffs are a stretch (see: Elune has always been a mystery and implied to be above them) and have more going for them than "Titans 2" considering the Titans didn't make the Light/Void even in the oldest lore.

[TheFirstOnes]

I'm starting to think the Jailer/Sargeras parallels are intentional and he may be some kind of alternate timeline version of him to tie in to the lingering "infinite" theme thats in the background of the expansion.

Well, the Jailer is basically just pure evil. Sargeras is a mad-man who was hell bent on stopping something he couldn't really prevent (Not to mention he was also being fooled by the Dreadlords). They have no true parallels outside of: They're bad dudes their respective pantheon hates, they want to destroy creation and claim Azeroth, and they have an infinite army. That's really it. (It's something the Void Lords kinda share as well, except they're hated by the Light and other Cosmic Forces, and not a respective Pantheon).

The Jailer is actually far worse than Sargeras, apparently. For he just wants to kill everything and everyone cause he feels like it.

[Varodoc]

The Eternal One's aren't in the Cosmic Chart because literally no one knew about the Death Cosmology (Especially considering the Cosmic side of the Chronicles is confirmed to be viewed from the Titan's perspective).

"Before life began and before even the universe existed, there was only the Light." The Arbiter and the Jailer also existed before Reality became a thing. Doesn't mean they were the only guys there. Also, Light had to have been made by something. The energy had to have been made. Void had to have been created to oppose the Light. What would've caused these 2 sides of occur?

The First Ones. Also, just because they're not in a chart, that doesn't mean anything. The Eternal Ones are still bound to Death, which means they are still bound to the Cosmic Chart. And Light, the primal force that existed before creation began (This applies with beings like the Jailer and the Eternal Ones as well, but they're another topic), is still part of the Cosmic Chart. The Cosmic Chart shows the forces that keep everything together, yes. But, what made these forces? What caused them to be polar opposites but equal? Ya know? The Chronicles only showed us a beginners view of the Warcraft Cosmos. What we're seeing in SL and beyond is the actual in depth view of it all.

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They did SHAPE the Cosmos, meaning they made it something when it was once nothing. They made the Light and Shadow. Come on now.

"Shape" doesn't mean they create something, it means they give it form. If I shape some clay into an object it doesn't mean I created that clay. As for the Eternal Ones, they weren't in the cosmic chart because Blizzard hadn't made them up back then, but now we know they would be in the Death category. So just because the First ones are not in that chart doesn't mean they are above it.

You're a hypocrite, you claim this is just your fan-theory then get mad when I don't agree with it. Since it's just a theory I don't have to take it as fact.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Shape" doesn't mean they create something, it means they give it form. If I shape some clay into an object it doesn't mean I created that clay. As for the Eternal Ones, they weren't in the cosmic chart because Blizzard hadn't made them up back then, but now we know they would be in the Death category. So just because the First ones are not in that chart doesn't mean they are above it.

You're a hypocrite, you claim this is just your fan-theory then get mad when I don't agree with it. Since it's just a theory I don't have to take it as fact.

But...they do create. They literally created Maldraxxus cause the Shadowlands needed a defense system. The hell?

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Also, I'm not mad. I'm just criticizing your points.

[Varodoc]

But...they do create. They literally created Maldraxxus cause the Shadowlands needed a defense system. The hell?

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Also, I'm not mad. I'm just criticizing your points.

Doesn't mean anything, the Eternal Ones of Bastion, Revendreth, and Ardenweald created their own realms as well, the titans created the Emerald Dream, the Old Gods had their own realms, etc. Creating realms is not a noteworthy feat.

[TheFirstOnes]

Doesn't mean anything, the Eternal Ones of Bastion, Revendreth, and Ardenweald created their own realms as well, the titans created the Emerald Dream, the Old Gods had their own realms, etc. Creating realms is not a noteworthy feat.

Well, yes, you're right. But the First One's still don't fit within the Cosmic Chart at all, and someone like the Jailer literally started shaking when our character activated one of their relics.

[Houle]

Doesn't mean anything, the Eternal Ones of Bastion, Revendreth, and Ardenweald created their own realms as well, the titans created the Emerald Dream, the Old Gods had their own realms, etc. Creating realms is not a noteworthy feat.

dude, you are clinging to OLD canon. chronicles are already outdated af, and the new infos weve seen so far indicate that the first ones are what their name implies, the FIRST things to ever exist. its dumb, and trust me, i dont like the entire thing either, but it is what it is.
first ones are now what the titans used to be, the big gods who made and shaped everything.
void lords and their possible light counterpart are probably second, arbiter/jailer third and titans fourth (specifically titans tho, since world souls came into existence with the universe itself, but they need to slumber and mature for such a long time that they didnt "hatch" until much later)

and the thing about n'zoth and the entirety of reality at stake in ny'alotha means oviously that if he won, he would spawn a void titan, which would then destroy reality. all n'zoth was doing in 8.3 was trying to copy ny'alotha on azeroth, rewriting the timeline of the planet.

power chart rn is not really measurable bc we dont know much about a void lords individual power, nor have we seen the jailer do much until now. well kick denathrius's ass tho, so that doesnt scream ultra-powerful for the "normal" eternal ones
what we can probably say is that azeroth is up there with the absolute top dogs, and above the void lords, since EVERYONE is trying to get her

[Varodoc]

dude, you are clinging to OLD canon. chronicles are already outdated af, and the new infos weve seen so far indicate that the first ones are what their name implies, the FIRST things to ever exist. its dumb, and trust me, i dont like the entire thing either, but it is what it is.
first ones are now what the titans used to be, the big gods who made and shaped everything.
void lords and their possible light counterpart are probably second, arbiter/jailer third and titans fourth (specifically titans tho, since world souls came into existence with the universe itself, but they need to slumber and mature for such a long time that they didnt "hatch" until much later)

and the thing about n'zoth and the entirety of reality at stake in ny'alotha means oviously that if he won, he would spawn a void titan, which would then destroy reality. all n'zoth was doing in 8.3 was trying to copy ny'alotha on azeroth, rewriting the timeline of the planet.

power chart rn is not really measurable bc we dont know much about a void lords individual power, nor have we seen the jailer do much until now. well kick denathrius's ass tho, so that doesnt scream ultra-powerful for the "normal" eternal ones
what we can probably say is that azeroth is up there with the absolute top dogs, and above the void lords, since EVERYONE is trying to get her

How are they outdated when they were released literally 3 years ago? This isn't some manual that came out 20 years ago, this trilogy is 2/3 years old. How is it outdated? In the Chronicles it's stated that the Light was the beginning of all.

[Verdugo]

In the Chronicles it's stated that the Light was the beginning of all.

*as much as Titans know.

[TheFirstOnes]

How are they outdated when they were released literally 3 years ago? This isn't some manual that came out 20 years ago, this trilogy is 2/3 years old. How is it outdated? In the Chronicles it's stated that the Light was the beginning of all.

It became outdated when Blizzard said "Oh yeah, the Chronicles are of the Titan's perspective".

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*as much as Titans know.

Literally this. Doesn't help that the descriptions are kinda fucked as well, like how the Dreadlords were "made in the Nether", which might not even be true anymore, etc etc.

[Houle]

How are they outdated when they were released literally 3 years ago? This isn't some manual that came out 20 years ago, this trilogy is 2/3 years old. How is it outdated? In the Chronicles it's stated that the Light was the beginning of all.

come on, this has been discussed hundreds of times now.
because they already said that chronicles was merely from the "titans point of view"...which means its no longer factual canon/lore bible. its how the titans think everything went down.
its already heavily implied in SL that nathrezim corrupted themselves with fel, to infiltrate the realm of disorder. chronicles straight up describes them as one of the original demon races born from the nether.
hell, it even started in legion. in chonicles it was said that the titans died, and only mere fragments of their spirits survived. the last remnants of them bound with the keepers. in legion, they are all suddenly up and well again, with no explanation whatsoever.

[Varodoc]

Whatever, I know the Void Lords and the Light will be hyped up once again when 10.0 turns out to be a Void and Light expansion. This is how power creep works, now you're all scared of the Jailer and these "mysterious" first ones, but in 10.0 Blizzard will drop a lot of info about the Void Lords and you will all forget about Jailer.

[Verdugo]

Whatever, I know the Void Lords and the Light will be hyped up once again when 10.0 turns out to be a Void and Light expansion.

And they will die effortlessly to loot whores.

[Houle]

Whatever, I know the Void Lords and the Light will be hyped up once again when 10.0 turns out to be a Void and Light expansion. This is how power creep works, now you're all scared of the Jailer and these "mysterious" first ones, but in 10.0 Blizzard will drop a lot of info about the Void Lords and you will all forget about Jailer.

wow, what news. its not like its been like that for quite a few years now.
and after the inevitable void lord xpac, theyll hype up new things as even bigger and worse, and well forget about the void lords.
so you just destroyed your own argument

[Varodoc]

wow, what news. its not like its been like that for quite a few years now.
and after the inevitable void lord xpac, theyll hype up new things as even bigger and worse, and well forget about the void lords.
so you just destroyed your own argument

Lol why do you have to be so salty with every reply?