Proof, that players must "complain" and "whine" whenever Blizzard make fishy moves.

[niztheundead87]

stop watching too much asmongold

[Kyphael]

Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[Baneto]

Come on dude, one doesn't have to "love the company" to use logic.

Then your have some unique definition of logic.

[Kendros]

99% of the complaints are whining for the sake of whining. Thats a fact.

[Zyky]

This is the proof that we can help Blizzard understand what ideas are clearly bad, and thus help them to make the game better.



Without "whiners" today on reddit, wowhead, mmo-champion and twitter we would have end up with this dumb pointless mechanic of Covenant use restriction.

Them changing irrelevant things, such as this, is not them listening. They're trying to appease players by making them not fixate on larger issues that actually destroy the playability of the game from all aspects of the game, such as the whole Soulbind nonsense happening right now.

[SirKickBan]

99% of the complaints are whining for the sake of whining. Thats a fact.

I'm sure you'd have no problems proving that, then?

_{..Oh, wait, no, you'd just say something like "look at the forums lol", because you've only got your own worthless opinion to go off of here.}

[kaintk]

great, now if enough people could cry more about convenant power, so blizzard scrap them, it will be great xD

[StillMcfuu]

This seems pretty silly and unrealistic about how businesses work.

There isn't a software/game company in the world that's been operating for more than a few years hasn't had some sort of majorly BAD IDEA-type deal in an alpha/beta version of their product. Many successful companies have fucking terrible ideas appear in alphas and betas.

Sometimes it's also really unclear how the general audience of your game will respond, too, and the best way to find out is just to put something in the game (in alpha/beta) to see. Hell, companies like Netflix and Facebook do this live, not even with alpha/beta products (they just only roll it out to some customers and see what happens).

Blizzard have always had a bit of a problem with an echo-chamber culture re: certain ideas. At least this one didn't go live. But certainly this wasn't one person going "sounds good" and enforcing it. People were agreeing that it should be tested. At least it wasn't something they just made like, like RealID (which is in the top ten dumbest ideas Blizzard have ever publicly had - and was definitely echo-chamber thinking, because they didn't realize that basically anyone who had an apparently-female or "foreign-sounding" name was about to get a whole bunch of harassment. Still laughing about the Blizzard guy who said you couldn't possibly doxx him from his RealID, and then got doxxed entirely in like 10 minutes from just that).

I don't agree. There is a major difference between RealID and this idea. RealID was a bad idea to address a very real problem. Not allowing you to use your abilities outside of the Shadowlands addresses nothing, not a single issue. It's a bad idea from a person or team who seem to not understand the game, game development, or the community. Basically it's clearly made by a person who doesn't play and probably never played.

It's also a staggering decision considering its directly highlighting major criticisms the game has had since Legion, namely that borrowed power is hurting the game and is at best tolerated by the player base.

The sad thing is, in a hypothetical sense I like the decision. Any powers we have from Shadowlands sort of make sense not working in areas where you aren't essentially dead. But the fact that all of the function of your class is tied to Shadowlands because of the shit borrowed power systems, removing those powers reverts you back to a crappy feeling, crappy playing class, and who would want that? Nobody, not a single person would want that.

That's the major issue, it's a change that addresses no issues, and goes against established game design. Saying "lore wise it works" actively goes against the fact that we can rez players at will, blink around, come back to life, etc... The majority of player abilities and the amount we can use them, actively works against game lore. But we have it for gameplay reasons.

This wasn't a RealID type decision, it's nothing like when Netflix or Facebook attempt to solve issues or create new functions with odd decisions. This was a bad decision made from a position of ... apathy. If it were ignorance, I wonder why a person who knows nothing about game design, the game itself, or the community would be in a position to make it.

Edit:
Anyone else growing increasingly concerned that it seems in the past 2 months almost all the news makes me want to play Shadowlands less. Is this a 2018 Diablo situation where they are attempting to temper expectations?

[therealbowser]

Not every complaint deserves whining about.

Not every complaint deserved to be whined about. Literally. Stop whining every time someone complains about something.

Blizzard doesn't need a player defense team protecting them from all of these players that are unhappy with the game. They are fully capable of ignoring players they don't want to listen do, as they have proven in the past. At least the whining players are passionate about the game and want to see it fixed, people whining about "complainers" are literally useless.

[Coffeh]

So if Blizz doesn't respond to feedback people complain. If they do respond to feedback people complain. Seems like people just like to complain.

[Jonsno]

You mean without whiners on the official forums. They don't give a shit about MMOC or wowhead forums. Did you even see the response on official forums?

Anyway. Beta. Blizzard tests something. People go batshit crazy and whine like little kids instead of just giving proper feedback. Blizzard reverts change. People still whine like little kids.

Love this community. Quality people.

Excuse me? They've made changes just based off giant articles on wowhead, or posts that gain a lot of traction on r/wow.
Feels like you're just shitting on everyone for no reason.

[Eurhetemec]

I don't agree. There is a major difference between RealID and this idea. RealID was a bad idea to address a very real problem. Not allowing you to use your abilities outside of the Shadowlands addresses nothing, not a single issue. It's a bad idea from a person or team who seem to not understand the game, game development, or the community. Basically it's clearly made by a person who doesn't play and probably never played.

It's also a staggering decision considering its directly highlighting major criticisms the game has had since Legion, namely that borrowed power is hurting the game and is at best tolerated by the player base.

The sad thing is, in a hypothetical sense I like the decision. Any powers we have from Shadowlands sort of make sense not working in areas where you aren't essentially dead. But the fact that all of the function of your class is tied to Shadowlands because of the shit borrowed power systems, removing those powers reverts you back to a crappy feeling, crappy playing class, and who would want that? Nobody, not a single person would want that.

That's the major issue, it's a change that addresses no issues, and goes against established game design. Saying "lore wise it works" actively goes against the fact that we can rez players at will, blink around, come back to life, etc... The majority of player abilities and the amount we can use them, actively works against game lore. But we have it for gameplay reasons.

This wasn't a RealID type decision, it's nothing like when Netflix or Facebook attempt to solve issues or create new functions with odd decisions. This was a bad decision made from a position of ... apathy. If it were ignorance, I wonder why a person who knows nothing about game design, the game itself, or the community would be in a position to make it.

Edit:
Anyone else growing increasingly concerned that it seems in the past 2 months almost all the news makes me want to play Shadowlands less. Is this a 2018 Diablo situation where they are attempting to temper expectations?

That is sadly a whole lot of nonsensical waffle.

It's this ridiculous stuff about "oh clearly this person has never played!" is just silly. I can tell from how you write that you're smarter than that. So why put out a such a ludicrous and laughable claim? There are plenty of people who play WoW who might think that was a good idea. We can maybe agree that they're deeply misguided, but that doesn't mean they don't play. I mean, every good idea in WoW has been screamed and stomped at by thousands of people who DO play the game. By your logic, because these ideas are often good, magically somehow all these people "don't play the game", rather than just having differing opinions. These boards are proof of that. There is no idea so good that either someone doesn't come into a thread to condemn it, or even start an entire thread trying to get it stopped.

And the saddest bloody thing is, in amongst all your waffle about how no-one who played could ever do this, you admit you understand AND appreciate what they were going for! Fuck's sake mate. And you say "nobody, not a single person", except in reality, I bet plenty of people either didn't care - I know I didn't - it's not like I'm going to need any of those abilities outside Shadowlands - or actively thought it was a good idea.

I will say, from the speed with which they reverted it, I imagine the meeting in which this was agreed (and I guarantee there was a meeting about this), the decision was either a split decision, or a weak decision.

And you're like condemning them as if they walked into church and took a giant shit on the altar in front of the congregation, but they reverted the decision before any harm was done. Which, again, you seem smarter than that sort of stuff.

I don't know you, but I hope you're okay. A lot of people are really stressed by all this COVID stuff, I know that.

[Advent]

& obviously their experience with what they're complaining about. As someone who doesn't play arena at a high or even a medium level, any comment I have on arena balance/rewards should probably be ignored.

I disagree. They may not be able to articulate well what their grievances with the systems are, but they're no less valid. That kind of mentality causes devs to miss what prevents "on the fence" players from engaging with certain activities.

[StillMcfuu]

That is sadly a whole lot of nonsensical waffle.

It's this ridiculous stuff about "oh clearly this person has never played!" is just silly. I can tell from how you write that you're smarter than that. So why put out a such a ludicrous and laughable claim? There are plenty of people who play WoW who might think that was a good idea. We can maybe agree that they're deeply misguided, but that doesn't mean they don't play. I mean, every good idea in WoW has been screamed and stomped at by thousands of people who DO play the game. By your logic, because these ideas are often good, magically somehow all these people "don't play the game", rather than just having differing opinions. These boards are proof of that. There is no idea so good that either someone doesn't come into a thread to condemn it, or even start an entire thread trying to get it stopped.

And the saddest bloody thing is, in amongst all your waffle about how no-one who played could ever do this, you admit you understand AND appreciate what they were going for! Fuck's sake mate. And you say "nobody, not a single person", except in reality, I bet plenty of people either didn't care - I know I didn't - it's not like I'm going to need any of those abilities outside Shadowlands - or actively thought it was a good idea.

I will say, from the speed with which they reverted it, I imagine the meeting in which this was agreed (and I guarantee there was a meeting about this), the decision was either a split decision, or a weak decision.

And you're like condemning them as if they walked into church and took a giant shit on the altar in front of the congregation, but they reverted the decision before any harm was done. Which, again, you seem smarter than that sort of stuff.

I don't know you, but I hope you're okay. A lot of people are really stressed by all this COVID stuff, I know that.

I will admit, I was being a bit over the top. But my point still stands that this was an ignorant and/or apathetic decision.

As for the bolded area, you are missing what I'm saying. In a purely hypothetical sense I get what the aim was. But in practice Blizzard themselves have time and time again sided with gameplay over lore for functionality. My statement exacerbates the decision, it doesn't come from a point of making the decision seem less ridiculous. Blizzard has set their own precedent, since the origination of the game, that gameplay trumps lore. So while I understand where the decision came from, it runs counter Blizzard's own MOP for the game.

From reading Ion's statement, I agree with the opinion that this decision was made to "head off" complaints coming from the loss of borrowed power and how it affects classes negatively. But just the mere concept that they are trying to head off future criticism, which they can already see coming, instead of fixing the source of that criticism is incredibly damning.

[Alatie]

Yeah on the other hand a lot of things people say Blizzard should never ever listen to or the game would have been dead already.

[Eurhetemec]

I will admit, I was being a bit over the top. But my point still stands that this was an ignorant and/or apathetic decision.

As for the bolded area, you are missing what I'm saying. In a purely hypothetical sense I get what the aim was. But in practice Blizzard themselves have time and time again sided with gameplay over lore for functionality. My statement exacerbates the decision, it doesn't come from a point of making the decision seem less ridiculous. Blizzard has set their own precedent, since the origination of the game, that gameplay trumps lore. So while I understand where the decision came from, it runs counter Blizzard's own MOP for the game.

From reading Ion's statement, I agree with the opinion that this decision was made to "head off" complaints coming from the loss of borrowed power and how it affects classes negatively. But just the mere concept that they are trying to head off future criticism, which they can already see coming, instead of fixing the source of that criticism is incredibly damning.

I don't think this was a lore > gameplay decision, though - re: Ion's statement, it's clear it was a gameplay (or even PR) decision that merely happened to be supported by lore. Gameplay in the sense that not having the abilities outside the SL area would mean people would more easily let go of them - and indeed Blizzard could have potentially left them in and functional in the SL area forever like Garrison abilities are in WoD.

Now Blizzard faces another choice in the long-term, because we demanded SL abilities be usable everywhere (I was fine either way, myself). When the next expansion comes, they'll either need to kill of SL abilities, or do what they were going to do now, and lock them to SL areas. They sure aren't likely to just let us keep using them into the next expansion.

As for damning, like, I get what you're saying, but this is a game with a 12-month+ content/design pipeline. This is a game where no particularly cogent alternative to rental abilities has been even proposed by players, let alone by Blizzard. "Just don't have them!" isn't a cogent alternative for a long-term level/gear treadmill game like WoW. So unless Ion could go back in time to probably like, 2017 or earlier, and somehow come up with a better idea than rental abilities (which, for all our complaining, most players seem to accept), we're pretty much stuck with some form of this, and there will be complaining. So yeah it's damning in a sense but equally I'm not entirely sure what else could be happening in the mid-term, let alone the short-term. All we can really hope for is that they come up with something non-rental for the next expansion.

I think in a purely logical and reasonable sense, he was actually right, but ultimately he is producing a media product, and was already looking down the barrel of a delay to that product, in a pandemic (which has been helping WoW, I think, but that could change), and even if what he proposes is totally logical, it's not going to fly if it goes against the expectations of the playerbase, and is announced this late on. If they'd said they'd be limited, say, months ago, I think a lot of people would be used to the idea and even willing to defend it (contrary to your "no-one could ever like this!" hype), but now? It's not the right thing, at the right time, and retracting it was the smart move.

(As an aside, long-term I could see WoW adopting a level-cap like DAoC, GW2, ESO and so on, and then having alternative advancement beyond that, as they do. It would really be the only way I can see to move away from the "rental power" approach, and it would mean they could introduce new classes a lot more easily - and they could still use rental powers in a sparing way, because content would still be valid. GW2's expansions all have a lot of expansion-specific powers, for example, which you have to earn, but it's accepted because there's a level cap, and that content remains valid, and thus they never seem "rental", just "less relevant". Still I'll be surprised if that happens.)

[Feanoro]

stuff

Nice kneejerk hatred there. The poster you quote talked about the GOAL back then, designing fun and interesting games.

[Sinyc]

Not working at Blizzard =/= Cannot provide feedback about the game.

Come on dude, I understand you love the company but please.

I don't love them, and have only been subbed for 3 months total during BfA.

If someone had the chops to design classes and the game better they'd apply for and get accepted at Blizzard. Don't take it as literal as you did before, but try to understand the underlying truth.

[Darththeo]

Honestly, I didn't care about the change either way.

I don't care if it existed or didn't. It can make sense either way.

[Lazuli]

They don't play the game so yeah they need their hands held and need to be told what is fun or cancer.