What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Eggroll]

Like NE's in their past worshipping a certain queen that just made a teeny tiny deal with a not so evil entity that just wants to cleanse existence of all life that caused just a little earthquake. No big deal. Note: no i do not like what Sylvanas has done or how Blizzard has written her. (Thought my fire mage was all on board with the burning, she likes big flames).

Hoo boy genocide that's always a slippery slope what's next cleansing the entire world of everything you see as evil/bad? I'm sure the normal Forsaken citizens will see your point and take that decision with grace.

Just a nitpick the Forsaken are within ~1% of Orcs, Tauren and Trolls at least according to the metric i saw from 2019. The 1st being BE's by a mile (lord knows why). Also why would sewers be some kind of an insult? Have you seen the Rogue order hall in Dalaran? That place, in my personal opinion, is awesome.
You can still visit Darnassus you know, its not gone so going with the player argument seems like you are letting emotions getting to involved in the game. Had you come with an in-universe argument i could see where the apparent anger would come from. Also why would the amount of players matter when it comes to storytelling? That would mean nothing bad can happen to the top races of both factions.

If the burning of Teldrasil affected you that much you might need to take a step back from the game for a bit. But hey that's just my personal opinion, you do you!

Again: I pointed out the difference between what actions happened before the player even participated in the story. Aszhara was 10.000 years before that. And the current nelf leadership are those who opposed Aszhara.. that little detail might have slipped your attention.

Yeah, for the Forsaken it might not be so severe a loss, since they can live in any sewer, the Undercity was nothing more than that. A world tree and almost the entire population of the faction capital of the night elves is only "slightly" harder harder to replace.

The night elves are very close 2nd to the humans in popularity, in some level ranges and geographics they are even the most popular race.

Yeah, I let myself be affected by emotion. And immersion. I don't see this as a weakness. But you do you.

[erifwodahs]

Yes, is such a big issue. I understand that many horde players are also annoyed by it, but fact is, that the horde did greater damage to the alliance than the scourge, the burning legion and N'zoth together. And not in a grey area, I am only talking about the times when they were clearly acting evil.

Because alliance did not exist when BL/Scourge was active.

It's shit writing when they put our characters in bombing or burning of the tree scenarios. I mean I will happily kill any alliance or their leader because that is the RP but committing war crimes is not something I want to do or will ever want to take a shit for.

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That's sadly the average Horde player mindset. They like to tag along with the nasty leaders because they are "interesting" and "for mah Horde", then they dismiss all the ingame blame they get.

How is that different from a spoiled kid who wants to do things and rejects all responsibility?

Except for actively going against them, right?!

[gcsmith]

Just to name a couple: Orc internment camps and the racism towards the High Elves of Quel'thalas treating them like slaves after Arthas destroyed their home. A couple more recent examples: Starting a faction conflict during the Legion invasion in Stormheim and Alliance rogues killing non-combatant miners in Silithus.

Orc interment camps are not an atrocity, the orcs had twice tried to commit genocide before... the alternative was putting them to the sword...

[erifwodahs]

Are you kidding me? The horde literally destroyed Draenor lol

Well, if HORDE destroyed alliance, then ALLIANCE caused the fucking sundering. Also Arthas was alliance, Kelthuzad was alliance. Garithos was alliance. Naga was alliance and they are responsible for release of Nzoth. Also alliance invaded Echo Isles.

[Ardenaso]

>Kel'thuzad and Naga was alliance

[Lord Pebbleton]

I think there is a very big underlying problem here.

I remember when Taurajo got sacked, Theramore got bombed, and Varian died. In all these occasions people were arguing and fighting over the events in a very invested way.
Ever since Teldrassil got burned, I have noticed that alliance players are largely more passive, as if the approach shifted from passionate arguing to just going with the flow.

I don't know if it's just my impression, but if not, I'd say we are at a point where the reaction to the horde's war crimes is "oh, geez, look at that, another one". The horde never being held accountable, always being forgiven and being somehow immune to the alliance's weapons (like the Vindicaar) has made for a very boring story, where one side commits atrocities and the other one just kind of waggles its finger in disapproval.

[Darth-Piekus]

I think there is a very big underlying problem here.

I remember when Taurajo got sacked, Theramore got bombed, and Varian died. In all these occasions people were arguing and fighting over the events in a very invested way.
Ever since Teldrassil got burned, I have noticed that alliance players are largely more passive, as if the approach shifted from passionate arguing to just going with the flow.

I don't know if it's just my impression, but if not, I'd say we are at a point where the reaction to the horde's war crimes is "oh, geez, look at that, another one". The horde never being held accountable, always being forgiven and being somehow immune to the alliance's weapons (like the Vindicaar) has made for a very boring story, where one side commits atrocities and the other one just kind of waggles its finger in disapproval.

That is what I am implying all this time. The Horde hasn't had any real consequences for the level of damage they have done.Because it is an MMO a playable faction will never have real consequences. That usually goes to the NPC faction. If it was a single player game however we could have seen a repeat of Warcraft 2 or the first Warcraft.

At this point I hope that they won't bring back the shitty story of the faction war. It destroys the lore, it destroys the game and alienates most of the warcraft fanbase.

[Lord Pebbleton]

That is what I am implying all this time. The Horde hasn't had any real consequences for the level of damage they have done.Because it is an MMO a playable faction will never have real consequences. That usually goes to the NPC faction. If it was a single player game however we could have seen a repeat of Warcraft 2 or the first Warcraft.

At this point I hope that they won't bring back the shitty story of the faction war. It destroys the lore, it destroys the game and alienates most of the warcraft fanbase.

I don't think Blizzard is capable of writing a faction war. They are however capable of writing one faction vs a member of the other faction, as proven with MoP and BfA.

[deviantcultist]

Except for actively going against them, right?!

Some of them do, cannot speak for everyone and that's why I mentioned "average".

Just look at how many Horde players are Sylvanas or Garrosh apologists and still whine about the Alliance being mean to them or arguing about a moral high ground.

The way the Horde has played itself out, it will seem so idiotic when they will act like victims once Tyrande or Turalyon wreck them in the future.

[Nevad]

Again: I pointed out the difference between what actions happened before the player even participated in the story. Aszhara was 10.000 years before that. And the current nelf leadership are those who opposed Aszhara.. that little detail might have slipped your attention.

My point with the Azshara comment was that an entire race shouldn't be "eradicated" because they followed a leader who turned out to be less than ideal (understatement).

Yeah, for the Forsaken it might not be so severe a loss, since they can live in any sewer, the Undercity was nothing more than that. A world tree and almost the entire population of the faction capital of the night elves is only "slightly" harder harder to replace.

The night elves are very close 2nd to the humans in popularity, in some level ranges and geographics they are even the most popular race.

(heh, be so sewer a loss)
I still don't see why the popularity of a race should have any bearing on the storyline of the game and the Forsaken comment about them being niche is just statistically false.

Yeah, I let myself be affected by emotion. And immersion. I don't see this as a weakness. But you do you.

Its great that you can care so much about this world that Blizzard has created, no shame there. But letting those emotions come through in your comments does you no favours if you are trying to convince someone or prove a point (personal opinion).

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That is what I am implying all this time. The Horde hasn't had any real consequences for the level of damage they have done.Because it is an MMO a playable faction will never have real consequences. That usually goes to the NPC faction. If it was a single player game however we could have seen a repeat of Warcraft 2 or the first Warcraft.

At this point I hope that they won't bring back the shitty story of the faction war. It destroys the lore, it destroys the game and alienates most of the warcraft fanbase.

Something they could do is just do away with the factions so that the Alliance and the Horde essentially unite, properly this time. But we would again need some outside force to be the catalyst for it. Like the Void Lords invading and pushing both factions to the brink of destruction, and i mean proper brink like all major race capitals getting demolished. Maybe keep Iron Forge alive as a last bastion or having us all moved to Draenor (not the AU one).

If they do continue with the faction war they need to think it through more and factions need too face some proper consequences, though i think this path wont make anyone happy in the long run.

[Eggroll]

My point with the Azshara comment was that an entire race shouldn't be "eradicated" because they followed a leader who turned out to be less than ideal (understatement).

(heh, be so sewer a loss)
I still don't see why the popularity of a race should have any bearing on the storyline of the game and the Forsaken comment about them being niche is just statistically false.

Its great that you can care so much about this world that Blizzard has created, no shame there. But letting those emotions come through in your comments does you no favours if you are trying to convince someone or prove a point (personal opinion).

1. Well, how about "consequences"...- what would you consider appropriate consequences for the crimes the Horde committed this time around? Does anything come to mind at all?

2. Really? Why not? Blizzard said they couldn't just kill off Sylvanas because she apparently is "too popular"...

3. Emotions are just as real as thoughts. Did you know that Alzheimer research proved that memory functions through emotion, not logic or intellect? This means, without emotions we would still be living in the trees. Just an anecdote. If you don't care about emotions, there's nothing to debate here.

[Varodoc]

1. Well, how about "consequences"...- what would you consider appropriate consequences for the crimes the Horde committed this time around? Does anything come to mind at all?

2. Really? Why not? Blizzard said they couldn't just kill off Sylvanas because she apparently is "too popular"...

3. Emotions are just as real as thoughts. Did you know that Alzheimer research proved that memory functions through emotion, not logic or intellect? This means, without emotions we would still be living in the trees. Just an anecdote. If you don't care about emotions, there's nothing to debate here.

I agree, storytelling is all about emotions. If a story fails to invoke any emotion in the viewer, it's a failure. To pretend otherwise is completely laughable.

[Feanoro]

I think there is a very big underlying problem here.

I remember when Taurajo got sacked, Theramore got bombed, and Varian died. In all these occasions people were arguing and fighting over the events in a very invested way.
Ever since Teldrassil got burned, I have noticed that alliance players are largely more passive, as if the approach shifted from passionate arguing to just going with the flow.

I don't know if it's just my impression, but if not, I'd say we are at a point where the reaction to the horde's war crimes is "oh, geez, look at that, another one". The horde never being held accountable, always being forgiven and being somehow immune to the alliance's weapons (like the Vindicaar) has made for a very boring story, where one side commits atrocities and the other one just kind of waggles its finger in disapproval.

Alliance players have figured out the Horde gets to curbstomp them, say "Whoops, it was all Blackhand/Gul'dan/Doomhammer/Garrosh/Sylvanas/NextHordeManiac, we're innocent", and all is forgiven while the list of destroyed Alliance towns and zones as well as the mountain of bodies grows.

After a while, even the thickest person gets the writers' Horde bias and stops caring because they know Alliance will always be the pathetic loser. Management doesn't care because it only further incentivizes paid transfers to Horde for being able to actually find groups worth a damn.

[Accendor]

Well, if HORDE destroyed alliance, then ALLIANCE caused the fucking sundering. Also Arthas was alliance, Kelthuzad was alliance. Garithos was alliance. Naga was alliance and they are responsible for release of Nzoth. Also alliance invaded Echo Isles.

I am not exactly sure what your post has to do with the argument made.

[Raisei]

Well, if HORDE destroyed alliance, then ALLIANCE caused the fucking sundering. Also Arthas was alliance, Kelthuzad was alliance. Garithos was alliance. Naga was alliance and they are responsible for release of Nzoth. Also alliance invaded Echo Isles.

Really, at least read up on the lore before making wrong statements.

Both Arthas and Kel'thuzad were pawns of the Lich King (Ner'zhul, former Orc warchief). The entire Scourge is controlled by Ner'zhul. Arthas had his soul stolen and his mind warped by this Orc, Kel'thuzad admitedly was there on his own free will (though the voice of the Lich King had likely driven him insane at that point), BUT he was already kicked from the Kirin Tor and thus the Alliance at that point.

Apart from this, the Sundering happened 10000 years before the Alliance ever existed and the Naga never had any connection to the Alliance at all... apart from the fact that they were Night Elves 10000 years ago which I suppose is your point... meaning you are blaming the Alliance for the acts of creatures that are for millenia not part of the race associated with the faction that you are trying to blame. Does this really make sense in your head?

On the other hand, the Destruction of Draenor is just a few decades back. Many people that lived during that time are still alive and the Horde that destroyed the Planet remains unchanged, apart from recruiting some more members. It still has the same laws, ruling structure and habits it IS the same Horde.

Really, I don't understand, every 2 days these nonsensical arguments are being made to defend the Horde. Every time they get refuted with the greatest ease because everyone looking at the lore for 5 minutes can tell you, you are wrong. What is the point?

I don't think Blizzard is capable of writing a faction war. They are however capable of writing one faction vs a member of the other faction, as proven with MoP and BfA.

That is not entirely true. The faction war itself is impossible to write well since because of game design it ALWAYS has to end in a stalemate. There can never be a winner or a loser because players would leave the game if they were forced to be on the loosing faction. There can't even be real consequences because halve the playersbase would not accept that there should be consequences. (Take this thread and you know what I mean).

This is why I am adamantly against ever having the faction war again. The story is destroying itself there. How can you write a war story when the outcome MUST be a ceasefire without consequences for either side (and the reader/player is aware of that). You don't, because you can't.

[erifwodahs]

Really, at least read up on the lore before making wrong statements.

You said that HORDE destroyed outland. Which is same as saying that Alliance caused sundering.
My statements make as much sense as yours. Read up on the lore to see what is Horde and what was Outland/Draenor Horde.

[Darth-Piekus]

Todays Horde is a direct continuation of the Orcish Horde. Doomhammer himself gave the mantle of Warchief of the Old Horde to Thrall when he died. The Highborne that caused the Sundering used to be Night Elves. You know what they evolved to now? Blood Elves. The Night Elves of the past have nothing to do with the Alliance or the Horde as they didn't exist back then.

[Nevad]

1. Well, how about "consequences"...- what would you consider appropriate consequences for the crimes the Horde committed this time around? Does anything come to mind at all?

2. Really? Why not? Blizzard said they couldn't just kill off Sylvanas because she apparently is "too popular"...

3. Emotions are just as real as thoughts. Did you know that Alzheimer research proved that memory functions through emotion, not logic or intellect? This means, without emotions we would still be living in the trees. Just an anecdote. If you don't care about emotions, there's nothing to debate here.

Somewhere stopping short of deleting an entire playable race maybe? So i don't know, maybe the Horde loses all their holdings in Eastern Kingdoms and add in Ashenvale? Or should some sort of mass killing of Horde civilians/race? Feels like I'm getting close to a fallacy here

And if that's how Blizzard wants to play it sure that's on them, still does not make any sense. They are telling us a story, the players are not since out actions are predetermined anyway. If they have a story to tell, tell it, don't let others dictate how the story is told. Am i wrong in thinking that?

Never said emotions are not real. Emotions are essential, but when you start calling the other side "insert expletives" and a playable faction should be "eradicated" it looses credibility in my eyes. Does something in the game upset you? Fine, that's storytelling that speaks to you, but to then take a stance that someone on the other side is a "insert expletive" because they like something else seems wrong to me. Not saying you personally haver ever called someone an expletive. This entire thread though has some pretty aggressive posts in it targeted at both sides.

Then again maybe Blizzards style of storytelling just does not fit me and if i somehow got more invested i would also be more passionate about what's going on in the game. As it stands if the Horde or the Alliance loses all their major cities i would not be very invested in it, would i objectively think it might be unfair for the players? Probably.

If you feel insulted by something i have written then i do wholeheartedly apologize.

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I am not exactly sure what your post has to do with the argument made.

Azshara was NE so Alliance is at fault for the sundering. Arthas, Kel'thuzad and Garithos were human so also Alliance fault. Nagas were NEs so again on the Alliance > old Horde destroying Draenor. So factions get blame for the actions of individuals/groups they are no longer involved with. I think that was his point? Not that it makes much sense.
The cracking of Draenor falls on the shoulders of Ner'zhul though, apparently he liked that Draenor power juice a bit too much.

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Really, at least read up on the lore before making wrong statements.

Both Arthas and Kel'thuzad were pawns of the Lich King (Ner'zhul, former Orc warchief). The entire Scourge is controlled by Ner'zhul. Arthas had his soul stolen and his mind warped by this Orc, Kel'thuzad admitedly was there on his own free will (though the voice of the Lich King had likely driven him insane at that point), BUT he was already kicked from the Kirin Tor and thus the Alliance at that point.

Just too nitpick, Ner'zhul was Kil'jaeden's pawn who is a pawn of Sargeras. So it goes Sargeras > Kil'jaeden > Ner'zhul > Arthas > Kel'thuzad. Though with some new revelations/rewrites in shadowlands it gets a bit more complicated. Throwing in the Jailer in there as well controlling the Nathrezim and then Lich King (Ner'zhul & Arthas).. Ner'zhul was never really in control.

[vilememory]

Somewhere stopping short of deleting an entire playable race maybe? So i don't know, maybe the Horde loses all their holdings in Eastern Kingdoms and add in Ashenvale? Or should some sort of mass killing of Horde civilians/race? Feels like I'm getting close to a fallacy here

And if that's how Blizzard wants to play it sure that's on them, still does not make any sense. They are telling us a story, the players are not since out actions are predetermined anyway. If they have a story to tell, tell it, don't let others dictate how the story is told. Am i wrong in thinking that?

Never said emotions are not real. Emotions are essential, but when you start calling the other side "insert expletives" and a playable faction should be "eradicated" it looses credibility in my eyes. Does something in the game upset you? Fine, that's storytelling that speaks to you, but to then take a stance that someone on the other side is a "insert expletive" because they like something else seems wrong to me. Not saying you personally haver ever called someone an expletive. This entire thread though has some pretty aggressive posts in it targeted at both sides.

Then again maybe Blizzards style of storytelling just does not fit me and if i somehow got more invested i would also be more passionate about what's going on in the game. As it stands if the Horde or the Alliance loses all their major cities i would not be very invested in it, would i objectively think it might be unfair for the players? Probably.

If you feel insulted by something i have written then i do wholeheartedly apologize.

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Azshara was NE so Alliance is at fault for the sundering. Arthas, Kel'thuzad and Garithos were human so also Alliance fault. Nagas were NEs so again on the Alliance > old Horde destroying Draenor. So factions get blame for the actions of individuals/groups they are no longer involved with. I think that was his point? Not that it makes much sense.
The cracking of Draenor falls on the shoulders of Ner'zhul though, apparently he liked that Draenor power juice a bit too much.

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Just too nitpick, Ner'zhul was Kil'jaeden's pawn who is a pawn of Sargeras. So it goes Sargeras > Kil'jaeden > Ner'zhul > Arthas > Kel'thuzad. Though with some new revelations/rewrites in shadowlands it gets a bit more complicated. Throwing in the Jailer in there as well controlling the
Nathrezim and then Lich King (Ner'zhul & Arthas).. Ner'zhul was never really in control.

We choose not to acknowledge this bit of lore and consider it retconned.

[VladlTutushkin]

What people dont get is HOW the loss will be presented to the horde if devs go “full War of Thorns” on them. It will not be some heroic saga of horde defying Alliance on every turn and losing a bloody battle, using all their might and being defeated by overwhelming odds only to heroically return later. No, nah, nope.
You will be shown as weak, pathetic, almost pitiful losers who cry as they are kicked around by big bad humans, short bad dwarves and tiny bad gnomes and so on. You will be dunked on, spat on, punted over , thrown into trash can and rolled out of the building. Then you will watch as all you hold dear burns in inferno which you can do NOTHING about and be mocked by celebrating Alliance fanbase to no end. You will also be later strung up and left to dry in the sun as plot progresses and your plotline seemingly forgotten... or worse.
Basically, they unable to fathom amount of drama, humiliation and mockery that usual “Alliance type loss” involves.