SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[TheFirstOnes]

Once again, to say we're not Titan level would be rather baseless. Hey guys, did you know that, throughout each WoW expansion, we get stronger and stronger? And with it, the enemies have to get stronger, as Ion literally stated? Crazy, I know.

[darkoms]

"We weren't a Titan level in 7.3. We couldn't even defeat Argus (who wasn't even a full-fledged Titan, otherwise he would be the size of a planet) without the help of the Titan avatars. If we were Titan level 7.3, we wouldn't need the Forge power to fight N'zoth. And we will fight Denatrius after his resurrection. He will be killed at some point in time during the quest chain in Revendreth and will be resurrected in the raid" We couldn't defeat Argus cause he was empowered by Death Magics, as well as Sargeras' own Magics. Prior to that, we made him kneel without any Titan strength amps (Which we got later on, after Argus' amps when Khaz'goroth Titanforged us).

Also, N'zoth was heavily empowered when we fought him. Him being considered "the weakest" was a baseless assumption Azshara expressed, cause all she saw was the power of N'Zoth beforehand. She also thought that Xal'atath could end N'Zoth, which was a literal fucking lie.

"And we will fight Denatrius after his resurrection. He will be killed at some point in time during the quest chain in Revendreth and will be resurrected in the raid." Ok? He'll just get empowered by Zovaal then, which will make him beyond Titan level.

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Except other Interviews suggest that the Eternal Ones are on par with the Titans.

What? We couldn't defeat Argus because he wields the magic of Death? Is Death Magic some kind of super powerful magic? Once again, Argus was nowhere near his full strength, he was not born normally, he did not develop his full strength and even so he killed an entire raid. The heroes had no chance against him without the help of the Titans.

Both Azshara and Xalatath called Nzoth the weakest and what power was he endowed with? Even Isharaj, the strongest Old God, could not withstand the Titans, and you are trying to prove that we were stronger than the Titans when we met Nzoth. You have huge problems with the perception of the strength of the characters. This isn't the first time I've argued with you, and you keep saying weird things about the power of the characters.

Ah, it's that simple. Can Zovaal immediately give Sylvanas all her strength so that she can destroy everyone on her own?

In one of the interviews Blizzard said that the Eternals are at the level of the Titans, but in a later answer they said that the Eternals are under the Titans.
https://sagamer.co.za/2020/08/20/a-d...f-hibernation/

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Once again, to say we're not Titan level would be rather baseless. Hey guys, did you know that, throughout each WoW expansion, we get stronger and stronger? And with it, the enemies have to get stronger, as Ion literally stated? Crazy, I know.

Again. If we were on Titan's level, we could defeat N'zoth without the help of the Forge.

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I don't see the point you're trying to make.

Every second person on this forum (especially Lord Johnson) constantly says that the Jailer is Titan ++ just because of this little WoWhead quote, although another source says that the Jailer is just a Titan level.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Once again, to say we're not Titan level would be rather baseless. Hey guys, did you know that, throughout each WoW expansion, we get stronger and stronger? And with it, the enemies have to get stronger, as Ion literally stated? Crazy, I know.

Technically I'd say our characters aren't at that level yet without being empowered. We were able to defeat Argus thanks to our weapons, N'zoth because of the Heart, and soon enough The Jailer with the Covenants/Soul Binding.

[Houle]

Once again, to say we're not Titan level would be rather baseless. Hey guys, did you know that, throughout each WoW expansion, we get stronger and stronger? And with it, the enemies have to get stronger, as Ion literally stated? Crazy, I know.

well, no
garrosh was most definitely weaker than deathwing, the LK and maybe even illidan, and he came after them. and n'zoth was definitely weaker than argus (ill say it again, the statement with "reality is at stake" is bc should n'zoth win, a void titan would be born, which would then end reality. not n'zoth himself). also, n'zoth being the weakest old god was confirmed by xal

ion will say anything he has to say when they are hyping new addons. how many times did the guy straight up lie/contradict himself? i lost count. until we see official stuff ingame or in a book, its best not to count on anything they say for promo

[darkoms]

Technically I'd say our characters aren't at that level yet without being empowered. We were able to defeat Argus thanks to our weapons, N'zoth because of the Heart, and soon enough The Jailer with the Covenants/Soul Binding.

Forget it. This person just wants his character to be a god.

[TickTickTick]

Once again, to say we're not Titan level would be rather baseless. Hey guys, did you know that, throughout each WoW expansion, we get stronger and stronger? And with it, the enemies have to get stronger, as Ion literally stated? Crazy, I know.

We? No. We are just granted borrowed powers for a limited time.

All the previous legendary weapons? Useless.
Cloak crafted by Wrathion? Apparently we gave them back to him.
Ring crafted by Khadgar? Probably lost its power the moment we came back to Azeroth.
Artifacts? Drained to weaken Sargeras' sword.
Heart of Azeroth? IDK how they'll go with this one, because canonically it's still working, just not in the Shadowlands. But honestly lorewise it should have stopped working the moment Azshara used it to release N'zoth, but then... We use it against him in Ny'alotha, so idk.

Same shit in Shadowlands. Covenants grant us their power and legendary items probably don't work in the living realm.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Every second person on this forum (especially Lord Johnson) constantly says that the Jailer is Titan ++ just because of this little WoWhead quote, although another source says that the Jailer is just a Titan level.

I think the blame of this is on Ion, he was trying to hype up the Jailer more so when he mentions "++". Whether or not it's true will be down to further story development and interpretation.

[TheFirstOnes]

Technically I'd say our characters aren't at that level yet without being empowered. We were able to defeat Argus thanks to our weapons, N'zoth because of the Heart, and soon enough The Jailer with the Covenants/Soul Binding.

You're right. We are given amps by borrowed power. My point is that the forces we face are practically stronger within every expansion (With the exception being Garrosh, as I don't see him being stronger than Deathwing).

[darkoms]

I do not understand at all how one can perceive the Jailer as a threat after the Shadowlands starting line. The Jailer and his entire army (described as equal in strength to the Legion) chase after the hero and a few not-so-powerful characters (Jaina is strong for a mortal, but she's not even a demigod) and in the end never kills anyone. His biggest achievement is that he threw Bane from some kind of tower and did not even kill. Can you imagine Sargeras and his demonic army chasing a few mortals instead of killing them in 0.0000000000000001 seconds?
Adventurers that approached the Tomb of Sargeras during the battle at the Broken Shore were instantly killed by the "Gaze of Sargeras", a spell followed by the message: You feel a staggering presence on the other side of the portal touch you for a moment. ... [29]
You cannot even approach the portal on the back of which Sargeras is waiting. But the Jailer? You can come face to face with him and just walk away.

[TheFirstOnes]

I think the blame of this is on Ion, he was trying to hype up the Jailer more so when he mentions "++". Whether or not it's true will be down to further story development and interpretation.

I don't see why he wouldn't be, as Steve and the official site suggests that he alone is a danger to everything if released. Even Bolvar fears him.

[darkoms]

I think the blame of this is on Ion, he was trying to hype up the Jailer more so when he mentions "++". Whether or not it's true will be down to further story development and interpretation.

I'm not sure if he mentioned ++ at all. I will wait for new information to understand what of the sources was wrong.

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I don't see why he wouldn't be, as Steve and the official site suggests that he alone is a danger to everything if released. Even Bolvar fears him.

Lol no. The Jailer is never supposed to pose a threat to outer space. This applies to all souls imprisoned in the Maw, not to only him.

[Houle]

That's one problem I have with this power level trap the writing team threw themselves into in recent times. Titans are planet-sized beings that can pluck old gods right out of a planet and crush them between two fingers, or can cleave a world in two with their giant swords. The only reasons we stood a chance against Argus are :
- He was considerably weakened by eons of abuse by the Legion
- He was downsized to a fightable scale within the seat of the pantheon
- We had badass weapon artifacts of unmatched power
- Six (SIX) titans lent us their aid and infused us with their powers temporarily

How a 15 feet tall dude that, in his own personal kingdom, couldn't even muster enough power to restrain us or even prevent us from leaving unscathed, could be a "Titan plus plus" level menace ?

Nonsense.

quote from wowhead that sums it up pretty well

[TheFirstOnes]

"You cannot even approach the portal on the back of which Sargeras is waiting. But the Jailer? You can come face to face with him and just walk away." You've never faced the Eye of the Jailer at max capacity then. When you get 5/5 in it, the Jailer kills you without even being inside the Maw zone itself, in a similar way Sargeras kills you with his glare from the portal (Reminder, we Players then survive multiple "distant" attacks from Sargeras in the Argus fight, thanks to the Titan amps. But still).

"I do not understand at all how one can perceive the Jailer as a threat after the Shadowlands starting line. The Jailer and his entire army (described as equal in strength to the Legion) chase after the hero and a few not-so-powerful characters (Jaina is strong for a mortal, but she's not even a demigod) and in the end never kills anyone." The Jailer doesn't want them killed though. He wants to torture them to the point where they're forced to serve him. That's how he's always done things, if you read the Shadowlands Collector's Edition stuff.

"Can you imagine Sargeras and his demonic army chasing a few mortals instead of killing them in 0.0000000000000001 seconds?" Isn't the Jailer's Army infinite like the Legion's? Also, isn't that what happened in the Broken Shore? Legit only 3 leaders died there, and everything else afterwards was the Legion failing at practically every turn.

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I'm not sure if he mentioned ++ at all. I will wait for new information to understand what of the sources was wrong.

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Lol no. The Jailer is never supposed to pose a threat to outer space. This applies to all souls imprisoned in the Maw, not to only him.

"The Jailer isn't a threat to the Cosmos" *Is considered by the Void to be the enemy of all, is literally the reason "Enemy Infiltration: Preface" exists, and is stated on multiple occasions to be a threat to the Shadowlands, Reality, and the realms beyond them*

What are you on about?

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https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/shadowlands "An ancient force of death threatens to break its bonds and unravel reality." Pretty sure reality means Outer-space.

[darkoms]

"You cannot even approach the portal on the back of which Sargeras is waiting. But the Jailer? You can come face to face with him and just walk away." You've never faced the Eye of the Jailer at max capacity then. When you get 5/5 in it, the Jailer kills you without even being inside the Maw zone itself, in a similar way Sargeras kills you with his glare from the portal (Reminder, we Players then survive multiple "distant" attacks from Sargeras in the Argus fight, thanks to the Titan amps. But still).

"I do not understand at all how one can perceive the Jailer as a threat after the Shadowlands starting line. The Jailer and his entire army (described as equal in strength to the Legion) chase after the hero and a few not-so-powerful characters (Jaina is strong for a mortal, but she's not even a demigod) and in the end never kills anyone." The Jailer doesn't want them killed though. He wants to torture them to the point where they're forced to serve him. That's how he's always done things, if you read the Shadowlands Collector's Edition stuff.

"Can you imagine Sargeras and his demonic army chasing a few mortals instead of killing them in 0.0000000000000001 seconds?" Isn't the Jailer's Army infinite like the Legion's? Also, isn't that what happened in the Broken Shore? Legit only 3 leaders died there, and everything else afterwards was the Legion failing at practically every turn.

The Jailer kills you gradually(Immediate extermination
In this final stage, players take 3% of max health in damage every three seconds, and movement speed is slowed by 5% every three seconds, stacking until the player leaves or dies.) in his own kingdom. Sargeras kills you instantly from the other side of the portal.

You don’t understand what I mean at all? A jailer in his own realm and with an army of souls (Baine said there are so many of them that they are now equal to the Legion in numbers) runs after a bunch of mortals like a stereotypical cartoon villain instead of just killing them.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yep, and then Sargeras tries to kill us with the same attack when right next to us at the Seat of the Pantheon, yet that doesn't kill us instantly. And here, we're buffed with covenant shit from the Pantheon of Death, while in Antorus, we were empowered with amps by the Titans. Similar thing could apply here.

Also, the Legion kept running at us like a bunch of stereotypical cartoon villains as well. In fact, most of them were moronic as fuck.

[darkoms]

"You cannot even approach the portal on the back of which Sargeras is waiting. But the Jailer? You can come face to face with him and just walk away." You've never faced the Eye of the Jailer at max capacity then. When you get 5/5 in it, the Jailer kills you without even being inside the Maw zone itself, in a similar way Sargeras kills you with his glare from the portal (Reminder, we Players then survive multiple "distant" attacks from Sargeras in the Argus fight, thanks to the Titan amps. But still).

"I do not understand at all how one can perceive the Jailer as a threat after the Shadowlands starting line. The Jailer and his entire army (described as equal in strength to the Legion) chase after the hero and a few not-so-powerful characters (Jaina is strong for a mortal, but she's not even a demigod) and in the end never kills anyone." The Jailer doesn't want them killed though. He wants to torture them to the point where they're forced to serve him. That's how he's always done things, if you read the Shadowlands Collector's Edition stuff.

"Can you imagine Sargeras and his demonic army chasing a few mortals instead of killing them in 0.0000000000000001 seconds?" Isn't the Jailer's Army infinite like the Legion's? Also, isn't that what happened in the Broken Shore? Legit only 3 leaders died there, and everything else afterwards was the Legion failing at practically every turn.

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"The Jailer isn't a threat to the Cosmos" *Is considered by the Void to be the enemy of all, is literally the reason "Enemy Infiltration: Preface" exists, and is stated on multiple occasions to be a threat to the Shadowlands, Reality, and the realms beyond them*

What are you on about?

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https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/shadowlands "An ancient force of death threatens to break its bonds and unravel reality." Pretty sure reality means Outer-space.

Of course, the Void considers him its enemy. The Void wants to create the Titan Void and the Jailer wants to kill Azeroth.
Of course he poses a threat to the Shadowlands. He took all the anima from them. I can't figure out how you determined that those valves served the Jailer and not Dentarius?
Sargeras and his Legion also threatened reality. Even more, they constantly destroyed POSSIBLE realities (Wandel and Illidan saw this in their visions). And where are they now?

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Yep, and then Sargeras tries to kill us with the same attack when right next to us at the Seat of the Pantheon, yet that doesn't kill us instantly. And here, we're buffed with covenant shit from the Pantheon of Death, while in Antorus, we were empowered with amps by the Titans. Similar thing could apply here.

Also, the Legion kept running at us like a bunch of stereotypical cartoon villains as well. In fact, most of them were moronic as fuck.

Sargeras is not with us on the Throne of the Pantheon, at this moment he defiles Azeroth in the mist form. During the meeting with the Jailer in the Shadowlands starting line, we were not reinforced by anyone and he had a whole army.

The Legion continued to raid us and they constantly tried to kill us, rather than running after us until we found the portal.

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Tell me, do you adore any character Blizzard is touted as the main villain? A year ago, you were willing to argue with me for weeks to prove how powerful Sargeras or Kil'jaeden are, you adored the Legion as much as the British Bulldog adores the Scourge (and I pointed this out to you several times). Now you prove to me how pitiful the Legion and Sargeras are against the background of the great Jailer.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Of course, the Void considers him its enemy. The Void wants to create the Titan Void and the Jailer wants to kill Azeroth." The Jailer is a threat to every cosmic force. Not just the Void.

"Of course he poses a threat to the Shadowlands. He took all the anima from them. I can't figure out how you determined that those valves served the Jailer and not Dentarius?" Denathrius took the Anima while serving the Jailer. And the Dreadlords serve Denathrius, who, big shock, SERVES THE JAILER! Also, his power is stated to be a threat to the Shadowlands. Not just his scheming. Once again, you're downplaying.

"Sargeras and his Legion also threatened reality. Even more, they constantly destroyed POSSIBLE realities (Wandel and Illidan saw this in their visions). And where are they now?" N'Zoth and other guys threatened reality as well. My point is that the Jailer is no different. The fact remains that the Legion isn't really shit anymore tbh, since the Jailer's scheming played the Legion like tools. Hell, the Dreadlord's basically fooled Sargeras into making his Legion, so that more Anima could be provided to the Jailer.

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"Tell me, do you adore any character Blizzard is touted as the main villain? A year ago, you were willing to argue with me for weeks to prove how powerful Sargeras or Kil'jaeden are, you adored the Legion as much as the British Bulldog adores the Scourge (and I pointed this out to you several times). Now you prove to me how pitiful the Legion and Sargeras are against the background of the great Jailer." Well yes, cause prior to the Jailer, the Legion was truly a threat. They still were. But now, with the recent Shadowlands reveals, the Jailer is the big dog at the moment. However, I am not "adoring" him, as I still find the Void Lords and the First Ones superior to him.

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"Sargeras is not with us on the Throne of the Pantheon, at this moment he defiles Azeroth in the mist form. During the meeting with the Jailer in the Shadowlands starting line, we were not reinforced by anyone and he had a whole army." He's still right next to us.

"During the meeting with the Jailer in the Shadowlands starting line, we were not reinforced by anyone and he had a whole army." Once again, the Jailer doesn't want us dead. He just wants to laugh at us while his Mawsworn tortures us.

"The Legion continued to raid us and they constantly tried to kill us, rather than running after us until we found the portal." Isn't that the same thing though? They kept coming for us till we beat them enough where we pushed them back to where they came from?

[Houle]

i literally dont get what you 2 are raging about at this point. its pretty obvious we can only say for certain once SL is over and weve dealt with the jailer.
until then, you are just spouting meaningless stuff at each other, with nothing in the game to back it

[TheFirstOnes]

i literally dont get what you 2 are raging about at this point. its pretty obvious we can only say for certain once SL is over and weve dealt with the jailer.
until then, you are just spouting meaningless stuff at each other, with nothing in the game to back it

Nothing's really meaningless, though. And the game + the developers back up both of what we have to say to be honest. Just because you don't agree, that doesn't make it not a factor here.

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I think the point is that, well, the lore is very inconsistent on what it wants to tell.

[Houle]

Nothing's really meaningless, though. And the game + the developers back up both of what we have to say to be honest. Just because you don't agree, that doesn't make it not a factor here.

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I think the point is that, well, the lore is very inconsistent on what it wants to tell.

i dont agree? wrong, i think both are definitely possible. i just see that we definitely cant say which is correct at this point