Shadowlands Covenant Ability Location Restriction Removed

[Baneto]

Great, they realized the whole borrowed power concept, which they did for years now, sucks. :-)

I wouldnt say they realized anything like that, since they will bring more borrowed power to the game in covenants soulbinds and conduits.

[Delever]

I dont understand everyone's issue with borrowed power. Unless you started playing in legion or something, bloating was a very real thing and it prevented them from adding more things to classes. How would you solve this so that all power you earn is permanent? We are 8 expansions into the game btw...

[PenguinChan]

I dont understand everyone's issue with borrowed power. Unless you started playing in legion or something, bloating was a very real thing and it prevented them from adding more things to classes. How would you solve this so that all power you earn is permanent? We are 8 expansions into the game btw...

Imagine playing your class, and you enjoy it. You've been having fun with it, and all the customization and whatever else that goes with it. After two years of playing this class (Or classes) you now have to say goodbye to your fun abilities, or even integral abilities to your playstyle. It's now up to Blizzard to replace these skills with new abilities that are fun and interesting. But you now lost that class nuance you were enjoying, if not an entire playstyle. You better hope these fun and new hip abilities can slide in to what you were enjoying, otherwise you'll probably be a bit upset!

Now do this for years on end. It gets a bit annoying, honestly.

[InfiniteCharger]

To all the folks claiming that ability bloat would be a problem without the borrowed powers.

First off, the talents of 1 - 70 or 1 - 80 only had a small number of actual abilities.
And to get to those active talents you actually had to spend a lot of talent points on %bonus talents.
So most talents were only enhancements to existing abilities not additions of new abilities.
Most actual abilities for classes were learned through trainers and purchased with gold.

The only main issue with the older talent system is that it was tied to leveling and in today's game leveling is a trivial piece of content.
So what these "rental power" systems represent is the ability to add talents based on secondary resources not tied to level.
There is absolutely no reason you couldn't do that and have it remain permanent on the character based on rep or resources gained.
In theory you could have separate tabs of secondary talents based on particular expansions and only be allowed one active set at any given time.
There are many ways they could have implemented this as a permanent part of a players toolkit instead of temporary without bloat.
This argument that the alternative is going to bloat the abilities is false because again talent trees don't have many active abilities to begin with.
And neither do these new progression systems. For most classes and specs they only add a few abilities and are mostly enhancements of abilities.
Not to mention if they wanted to they could add new abilities to the class trainers with a very high gold cost or resource cost outside of the talent trees. That would be another way to keep the number of actual new abilities per expansion very low.

Right now the main issue is that we have had two expansions where most of these talents were tied to gear.
So regardless of what is done for the future, those talents are effectively gone once the expansion is over.
Shadowlands is doing the same thing where now these powers are based on your connection to some NPC in a covenant.
Thematically this too means that ultimately you will lose these once the expansion is over.

Just create a thematic expansion based resource collection system that "trains" you on how to enhance your abilities in a tree.
That would remove the issue of these talents being tied to gear, NPCs or items that go away when an expansion is over.
It makes more sense lore wise that you learn to use these resources to make new enhancements to your skills.
Either way, it is actual progression on your character and ties into whatever is theme of the expansion and any said grinds there.
However, the implications on this tree is that these would mostly be enhancements to abilities and actually limited in number and scope.
So that would keep the bloat of player power to a minimum and remove many of the balancing issues.
Currently these are over powered enhancements and abilities which create nightmares for balancing and class identity.

[Aphrel]

"It’s something we were on the fence about internally, and seeing the range of reactions has been helpful in making it clear that it wasn’t the right move."

How are they on the fence about this?!

What human being on this planet wants something like this?

It sounds like they have a saboteur in their office...

[Lurker1]

I dont understand everyone's issue with borrowed power. Unless you started playing in legion or something, bloating was a very real thing and it prevented them from adding more things to classes. How would you solve this so that all power you earn is permanent? We are 8 expansions into the game btw...

you solve this by haveing expansion only stuff like covens ironic!

[mongoose221]

Imagine playing your class, and you enjoy it. You've been having fun with it, and all the customization and whatever else that goes with it. After two years of playing this class (Or classes) you now have to say goodbye to your fun abilities, or even integral abilities to your playstyle. It's now up to Blizzard to replace these skills with new abilities that are fun and interesting. But you now lost that class nuance you were enjoying, if not an entire playstyle. You better hope these fun and new hip abilities can slide in to what you were enjoying, otherwise you'll probably be a bit upset!

Now do this for years on end. It gets a bit annoying, honestly.

You act like they remove ALL abilities from a class and start from scratch every time.
They add some cool shit that is expansion centric, then remove it.
Some things they deem "necessary" to keep w/the class, and guess what? you get to keep them
others they feel are too strong/need to be removed, and they do so.

[Raelbo]

Fact here is rental power doesn't work. Most people don't like it.

Citation needed.

Let me clarify: I am fully aware that at least 20-30 people on MMO-Champion are strongly opposed to it. Also every now and again I read someone on trade moaning about - usually the same people every time. There are probably even a few hundred confirmed people who moan about it on the forums.

So let's be generous and conclude that at least 1000 across various forums have complained about this. WoW is a game played by millions. While it's entirely possible that those 1000 represent a bigger number of players, we have no way of knowing how big that number is. It's entirely possible, and I argue likely (based on the really poor level of argumentation levelled by them against "rental powers" - indicative of a small echo chamber) that it's just a small vocal minority.

There are other methods. Your rejection of the existence of other and better methods that don't deny progression is an exercise in stubbornness and is not something i care in engaging. Your lack of imagination is not my problem.

This isn't an issue pertaining to my lack of imagination. It's not my job to try and think of a better method than "rental powers" since I am not the one clamouring to remove them. What I am saying is the rental powers we have had are a far better idea than the boring, unimaginative and ineffectual alternative you have offered. That is a problem with your lack of imagination, not mine.

Fact is, your assumption was proven wrong. It wasn't difficult to do.

What assumption? If you want to try and argue that "Rental Powers" are bad and that better solutions exist, then describe them. If they are better than what we currently have, what possible motive would I, or anyone else here, have to reject them? If I remain unconvinced it's either down to you being unable to communicate your glorious idea properly or, more likely, that it simply wasn't a great idea.

[Swnem]

Citation needed.

Let me clarify: I am fully aware that at least 20-30 people on MMO-Champion are strongly opposed to it. Also every now and again I read someone on trade moaning about - usually the same people every time. There are probably even a few hundred confirmed people who moan about it on the forums.

So let's be generous and conclude that at least 1000 across various forums have complained about this. WoW is a game played by millions. While it's entirely possible that those 1000 represent a bigger number of players, we have no way of knowing how big that number is. It's entirely possible, and I argue likely (based on the really poor level of argumentation levelled by them against "rental powers" - indicative of a small echo chamber) that it's just a small vocal minority.



This isn't an issue pertaining to my lack of imagination. It's not my job to try and think of a better method than "rental powers" since I am not the one clamouring to remove them. What I am saying is the rental powers we have had are a far better idea than the boring, unimaginative and ineffectual alternative you have offered. That is a problem with your lack of imagination, not mine.



What assumption? If you want to try and argue that "Rental Powers" are bad and that better solutions exist, then describe them. If they are better than what we currently have, what possible motive would I, or anyone else here, have to reject them? If I remain unconvinced it's either down to you being unable to communicate your glorious idea properly or, more likely, that it simply wasn't a great idea.

I think it's more the 2 that like it.

I am saying that there are methods that are better at keeping a sense of progression and are sustainable long term and i brought up 2 of them. Rental power is not actually the only solution, actually it is not a solution at all. I don't care if you agree. That's your deal. It doesn't disprove what i said. Rental power removes progression. It's not actual progression.

[Kuntantee]

They have gone full retard.

[Tesshin20]

Calling something a flawed argument because you dont agree with isnt how it works mate.

I am not calling it flawed because I don't agree with it. I calling it flawed because its built on a wrong understanding of the game and how the community handle the systems.

- - - Updated - - -

Because I like to do all type of content.

So do I. But you can't specialize in everything. Then it's not longer specializing is it? Just as in life, you can't be best at everything.

- - - Updated - - -

Citation needed.

Let me clarify: I am fully aware that at least 20-30 people on MMO-Champion are strongly opposed to it. Also every now and again I read someone on trade moaning about - usually the same people every time. There are probably even a few hundred confirmed people who moan about it on the forums.

So let's be generous and conclude that at least 1000 across various forums have complained about this. WoW is a game played by millions. While it's entirely possible that those 1000 represent a bigger number of players, we have no way of knowing how big that number is. It's entirely possible, and I argue likely (based on the really poor level of argumentation levelled by them against "rental powers" - indicative of a small echo chamber) that it's just a small vocal minority.



This isn't an issue pertaining to my lack of imagination. It's not my job to try and think of a better method than "rental powers" since I am not the one clamouring to remove them. What I am saying is the rental powers we have had are a far better idea than the boring, unimaginative and ineffectual alternative you have offered. That is a problem with your lack of imagination, not mine.



What assumption? If you want to try and argue that "Rental Powers" are bad and that better solutions exist, then describe them. If they are better than what we currently have, what possible motive would I, or anyone else here, have to reject them? If I remain unconvinced it's either down to you being unable to communicate your glorious idea properly or, more likely, that it simply wasn't a great idea.

Thanks for proper answers. You bring some good arguments.

[Eazy]

So do I. But you can't specialize in everything. Then it's not longer specializing is it? Just as in life, you can't be best at everything.

Yes I can, if I want to.

Everyone should be able to play on the highest level if they put enough effort.

And that comparison doesn't even fit, because it's a video game, not real life. I know that for some people this game is their whole life, but that argument is straight stupid.

[Baneto]

I am not calling it flawed because I don't agree with it. I calling it flawed because its built on a wrong understanding of the game and how the community handle the systems.

In your limited opinion on the subject.

[Evolixe]

I'll take, inane shit said for at least the past 14 years for 400, Alex...

WoW 2 already happened. We are closing in on WoW 9, actually.

Probably. It doesn't really matter anyway its just a rumor, just seemed more credible this time.

Some people can be really vile over nothing. I regret even stating it.

[PenguinChan]

You act like they remove ALL abilities from a class and start from scratch every time.
They add some cool shit that is expansion centric, then remove it.
Some things they deem "necessary" to keep w/the class, and guess what? you get to keep them
others they feel are too strong/need to be removed, and they do so.

They don't, but they've definitely redone and reworked multiple classes or specs throughout the games life cycle. To the point that, depending on when you played the game you could come back and have an entirely different playstyle because of it - and that probably isn't even the only time your class has changed. But as to things being added and removed: Yes, there are at times they realize something is integral and add it into the base kit. Other times, they don't - and make it a talent instead and force you to pick it if you enjoyed having it. That happened quite often with the Legion Artifacts - which is again, annoying.

To the last point: We'll have to agree to disagree with Blizzard's close-minded outlook on things that they don't like / think players don't enjoy. Too many times have they removed something because they didn't want to put effort into it, or removed it because of minority outcry.