Shadowlands delay -- Proof this direction isn't the best way forward?

[Hitei]

New quests, new dungeons, etc.

Doing the same world quests from beta till the end of the expansion hasn't worked!

The things that no expansion has ever not had?

[Lolites]

Yes really. They've been in quarantine for five months from March to August. If after five months they couldn't account for the loss of productivity due to quarantine then management is far worse then I thought.

you clearly know shit about production or time management in general...
its not like production is linear, you might do first few milestones in time and then you get stuck on something, you couldnt or wouldnt expect an hour ago, let alone months ago...
just bcs the pandemic is for months doesnt mean the problem it caused had to be present all along, some late parts of development might suffer more, and its still plausible its caused by pandemic even if its way later...

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They delay it to fix their stupid tuning and imbalanced covenant abilities.

thank god we have your internal knowledge ...and by internal i mean you pulled it out of your ass
you have no idea why they postponed it, dont pretend what you THINK is in any way close to being fact...

as for "they couldnt balance single talent row in past 8 years" ...yeah, bcs since pandaria it was so unbalanced, and before pandaria it was soooooo balanced...

[Ealyssa]

they're delaying SL for a lot of the same reasons early BfA was criticized: A systems-on-systems approach

Wrong assumption right there. They are delaying it because it's not finished...
From there your whole reasoning is useless.

[Clozer]

you clearly know shit about production or time management in general...
its not like production is linear, you might do first few milestones in time and then you get stuck on something, you couldnt or wouldnt expect an hour ago, let alone months ago...
just bcs the pandemic is for months doesnt mean the problem it caused had to be present all along, some late parts of development might suffer more, and its still plausible its caused by pandemic even if its way later...

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thank god we have your internal knowledge ...and by internal i mean you pulled it out of your ass
you have no idea why they postponed it, dont pretend what you THINK is in any way close to being fact...

as for "they couldnt balance single talent row in past 8 years" ...yeah, bcs since pandaria it was so unbalanced, and before pandaria it was soooooo balanced...

Yep, completly pulled out of my ass. Not said directly by blizzard. Out of my ass.

"it’s become clear we need a little more time for additional polish, and to balance and iterate on some interlocking pieces"

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...on-shadowlands

What I think is that you should learn to read.

And no, before Pandaria we had no talent rows. God damn you are so ignorant. It hurts. It really does.

[Doffen]

The actual conversation is a bit more nuanced than "everything sucks" or "everything is amazing." I don't think every alternative progression system is trash nor did I mean to imply that, I just think that modern WoW's obsession with layering progression systems on top of each other is causing more harm than good.

edit: Also, did you quote the wrong part of my post? That wasn't what you had originally responded to.

What alternative progression system do you think was good then?

To me Artifact Power was the best iteration, by far. By making effort being your way to progress, with no rng attached. The best iteration for me was from the start as a main, but from 7.1.5 was probably better overall since it got alt-friendly as well then.

[InfiniteCharger]

The problem with these systems of systems is they have to recreate them from scratch in every expansion.
And in doing that they have to go back and address the same issues and problems they addressed in the previous expansion.
If it was a single system that they built and kept for every expansion then the efficiency and lessons learned would make them better.
But in recreating the same systems of systems in a different format and with different means of acquisition every expansion means you never get that. This was seen in BFA where they tried 3 iterations of these systems and each one was something new which had flaws and issues.
So there is never any sense that these systems are getting better and more refined over time, instead they seem to get worse. And the players who have issues just get tired of having to go through these new iterations of buggy systems that get slowly revamped during the gameplay in the expansion. Legion was the best out of all of these with the fewest revamps to the system overall but BFA was worse and SL is already off to a bad start and iterating through changes even before it launches. If this gets the system ironed out stable before launch and it stays consistent throughout the expansion that would be great, even if it isn't what everybody necessarily likes. But some of us just feel that is just another case of players being the guinea pigs for live beta testing and iterations of the new fancy hamster wheel that never gets fixed rather than revamped and re-engineered over time.

[Swnem]

Well, the company has grown in value over the last few years, so they're doing something right. You calling a few of their products mediocre doesn't change that.

I don't have to be American to understand how businesses work. And, I'm not American, so great job trying to throw a nationality insult.

You must be under the impression we are in an economics forum. I'm a customer. When i talk about the company, i talk about their products, not their share value. They are merged with activision, so we can't even quantify it.

[SirBeef]

Anyone who has payed attention to the beta even remotely will tell you this delay is a good thing. It just wasn’t unfinished, the game is in shambles.

Not rue. It's just harder to fix things as quickly from home that it could be if they were all on site. I've not seen anything out of the ordinary in regards to testing SL than previous iterations of the game.

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Wasn't it Blizzard who used to say "we never release anything until it's ready"? And people used to respect them for that. We've just become such an instant gratification society now that most people can't fathom why taking a little more time on something to get it right. That may not be what you want to hear, but it's the truth.

Yes the same company that released D2, a buggy mess that the first 19 patches over the first year were all bug fixes. The same company that launched a buggy as hell WoW in 2004. The same company that released a raid with a boss that was impossible to kill due to a bug. All that was was corporate speak. There has not been a Blizzard product launched without a lot of bugs. They never really released a game when it was ready, becasue they are never ready.

[Mosha]

Not rue. It's just harder to fix things as quickly from home that it could be if they were all on site. I've not seen anything out of the ordinary in regards to testing SL than previous iterations of the game.

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Yes the same company that released D2, a buggy mess that the first 19 patches over the first year were all bug fixes. The same company that launched a buggy as hell WoW in 2004. The same company that released a raid with a boss that was impossible to kill due to a bug. All that was was corporate speak. There has not been a Blizzard product launched without a lot of bugs. They never really released a game when it was ready, becasue they are never ready.

Then your blind

[Sluvs]

I like the covenant abilities, I hate soulbinds and conduits.

I think the problemwith the system is, as op said, they pile onto each other.

Either of those would be fine by themselves. And I actually think they would be welcomed by the community, the problem is when you have to deal with multiple systems at once. That is the problem, and that is the feedback being given by the community ever since soulbinds have been unveiled. Just pick a system, that is all.

Also I will go out on a limb and say, maybe the soulbinds would be fine if they did not add conduits and were more utility based/gameplay changing. But the conduits are a mess.

I would just scrape the system completely, make the soulbinds some sort of static utility buff and make the cool conduits glyphs, and the lame one... throw them in the trash.

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Then your blind

I mean, to say the game was in shambles is a bit hyperbolic, but there was plenty of bug fixing and balancing to be done that just could not be done in a month.

[Mosha]

I like the covenant abilities, I hate soulbinds and conduits.

I think the problemwith the system is, as op said, they pile onto each other.

Either of those would be fine by themselves. And I actually think they would be welcomed by the community, the problem is when you have to deal with multiple systems at once. That is the problem, and that is the feedback being given by the community ever since soulbinds have been unveiled. Just pick a system, that is all.

Also I will go out on a limb and say, maybe the soulbinds would be fine if they did not add conduits and were more utility based/gameplay changing. But the conduits are a mess.

I would just scrape the system completely, make the soulbinds some sort of static utility buff and make the cool conduits glyphs, and the lame one... throw them in the trash.

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I mean, to say the game was in shambles is a bit hyperbolic, but there was plenty of bug fixing and balancing to be done that just could not be done in a month.

Yes it is hyperbolic, but Christ they were still making massive changes to classes, systems, pvp, how gear worked with the level squish, raids in general... there is no way to think that it wasn’t going to be delayed.

Yes I used shambles as a way to describe it when in comparison to what it should be a month before launch. You shouldn’t even be thinking about whether or not you should completely get rid of a major system a month before launch. Yet here we are

[Sluvs]

Yes it is hyperbolic, but Christ they were still making massive changes to classes, systems, pvp, how gear worked with the level squish, raids in general... there is no way to think that it wasn’t going to be delayed.

Yes I used shambles as a way to describe it when in comparison to what it should be a month before launch. You shouldn’t even be thinking about whether or not you should completely get rid of a major system a month before launch. Yet here we are

I don't really think they were making massive changes. Even the classes were just getting some balancing and some small tweaks, with the exception of monks, all are working just fine. The only system that needs heavy changes is the soulbinds + conduits, fuck that.

My point is, if it launched at the designated date, it would be a big problem, but nothing like WoD IMHO.

[dojichan]

I can’t imagine any company giving this statement to except when talking about a stand alone, single player/multiplayer game such as CoD or Devil May Cry.
Given the history that every iteration of WoW has been released with bugs and requiring updates and hot fixes, they have shown they always release games that aren’t finished.

As someone who worked as a developer for ten years:
Every product is released with bugs. It is impossible to release a product that doesn't have these. The more complex the system... the more destructive the bugs will be... thus complex games always need updates and hot fixes early.
"Finished" is a subjective idea. No objectively finished(complex) thing exists in development.

[Mosha]

I don't really think they were making massive changes. Even the classes were just getting some balancing and some small tweaks, with the exception of monks, all are working just fine. The only system that needs heavy changes is the soulbinds + conduits, fuck that.

My point is, if it launched at the designated date, it would be a big problem, but nothing like WoD IMHO.

Honestly I don’t feel like going through all the changes they had the week before they delayed the game, you either payed attention to them or you didn’t. If you can’t see how they weren’t massive changes they were making as well as massive changes they NEED to make as of right now (looking at pvp balancing hunters and rogues are literally 2 shotting people).

There’s no reason to discuss something tbh if you simply don’t know what’s going on :S

[Eapoe]

As someone who worked as a developer for ten years:
Every product is released with bugs. It is impossible to release a product that doesn't have these. The more complex the system... the more destructive the bugs will be... thus complex games always need updates and hot fixes early.
"Finished" is a subjective idea. No objectively finished(complex) thing exists in development.

While true, how many games have been released that are practically bug free? Or are at least able to be completed with the bugs they have? Or have bugs that don’t ruin the game at all? Some games are expected to have bugs as they add to its charm (here’s looking at Bethesda).
Blizzard has, time and time again, released WoW with bugs on almost every content patch, let alone the beginning of every xpac.
I would call games like Final Fantasy (NES) a finished product, even though it has a bug in it with things like the Intelligence and spell bugs.

[Yorimar]

You probably have no idea what are you talking about.

do you? because i was talking about BFAbeing released in an unfinished state, not what it did or did not became.

[Baneto]

Wrong assumption right there. They are delaying it because it's not finished...
From there your whole reasoning is useless.

Ever crossed your mind that it is not finished because of those systems?

[Eurhetemec]

While true, how many games have been released that are practically bug free? Or are at least able to be completed with the bugs they have? Or have bugs that don’t ruin the game at all? Some games are expected to have bugs as they add to its charm (here’s looking at Bethesda).
Blizzard has, time and time again, released WoW with bugs on almost every content patch, let alone the beginning of every xpac.
I would call games like Final Fantasy (NES) a finished product, even though it has a bug in it with things like the Intelligence and spell bugs.

This is a pretty silly argument, mate.

Your example of a "finished product" is a game from 1987, which is a 144 KB of extremely simple code and content - and which had plenty of serious bugs.

You're comparing it to an incredibly complex MMORPG, which is a living product, and will always be in development.

As for "how many games have been released that are practically bug free?", well I think you have to compare like with like, and if we're talking even moderately complex CRPG or MMORPGs, the answer is "pretty much none". I sure can't think of one. First time I ever had a game so buggy it had to be patched was Ultima 7 in 1993, which given the internet was barely born, and the idea of "downloading a patch" was a wild fantasy, was pretty bad (coverdisks from gaming mags carried the patch instead). And every major (and many minor) CRPG or MMORPG I can think of launched with somewhere between "quite a lot of bugs" to "HOLY SHIT ITS MADE OF BUGS" (looking at you, Pathfinder Kingmaker).

(this is where someone leaps in with a "example" of a bug-free release that's just totally wrong, and where the game was incredibly buggy at release but that person didn't play it until months or years later).

Being able to be completed with the bugs they have is another question, too. A lot of CRPGs/MMORPGs have absolutely been possible to complete with the bugs they have, yet some percentage of users are completely eff'd by the bugs, or can't complete it. No-one being able to complete it is almost (not entirely) unheard-of. The question is more what percentage of users have the problem, and can it be circumvented. MMOs have the advantage, that if the problem is rare enough, GMs can probably fix it, and if it's an easy fix, the company can hotfix it, perhaps just hours after it becomes obvious it's a bad problem (CRPGs rarely get this). Legion had a bug that stopped my wife being able to level her Druid until a GM fixed it, for example (we tried all the workarounds the boards suggested, none worked, and we weren't the only ones that was happening to).

The idea that Bethesda bugs are "charming" is pretty funny, too, given they've had some of the very worst bugs I can think of, including the save-file corruption bug on the PS3 version of Skyrim.

[aceperson]

What part is difficult for you to understand?
Blizz has released buggy unfinished products for over 5 years now, its to be expected.
If they now do a 180 and decide they need more time to polish the game and give us a better experience and they fail to do that.

If the product is not gonna improve, there would be no inherent reason to even delay it. Dont you see the flaws in your own logic?

do you not see the flaws in yours? need i remind you that warcraft 3 refunded was delayed too? a delay means nothing other than the product is going to release at a later date. the product is still going to be buggy, it's still not going to be perfect, and blizz never claimed anything fundamental would change because of this delay. YOU are raising your expectations because of your "implied promise" that the game will be better with the delay.

while delaying a product does mean they need more time to improve in some areas, that doesn't mean the game itself will be better. it just means the game might not be completely broken on launch like fallout 76 was.

[Mosha]

do you not see the flaws in yours? need i remind you that warcraft 3 refunded was delayed too? a delay means nothing other than the product is going to release at a later date. the product is still going to be buggy, it's still not going to be perfect, and blizz never claimed anything fundamental would change because of this delay. YOU are raising your expectations because of your "implied promise" that the game will be better with the delay.

while delaying a product does mean they need more time to improve in some areas, that doesn't mean the game itself will be better. it just means the game might not be completely broken on launch like fallout 76 was.

Of course it means it’s going to be better wtf lol. If a game is so unfinished they delay it then whatever they are working on obviously is going to improve. Sure the game might be broken still but it’s less broken.