Shadowlands delay -- Proof this direction isn't the best way forward?

[kaminaris]

He didn’t imply the delay is because of balance issues. Balancing is one of the least important things in MMOs, some would argue not important at all, so it’s left for last. The delay is because of covid. What they are doing now is fixing bugs (all minor) and doing some balancing. Sky isn’t falling. Everything was delayed this year.

I still don’t know what these supposed critical bugs in SL questing and zones are. I just finished leveling a warlock on beta yesterday, and I reported some minor bugs a handful of times, but everything was completable. All my spells worked. All covenant abilities worked.

Endgame systems still require work on Torghast realm, but that’s just polish.

He did, read his posts again. Maybe NOW it's minor bugs left but at the time blizzard decided to delay SL there were certain combinations of classes/covenants that were literally bricked.

[Eapoe]

This is a pretty silly argument, mate.

Your example of a "finished product" is a game from 1987, which is a 144 KB of extremely simple code and content - and which had plenty of serious bugs.

You're comparing it to an incredibly complex MMORPG, which is a living product, and will always be in development.

As for "how many games have been released that are practically bug free?", well I think you have to compare like with like, and if we're talking even moderately complex CRPG or MMORPGs, the answer is "pretty much none". I sure can't think of one. First time I ever had a game so buggy it had to be patched was Ultima 7 in 1993, which given the internet was barely born, and the idea of "downloading a patch" was a wild fantasy, was pretty bad (coverdisks from gaming mags carried the patch instead). And every major (and many minor) CRPG or MMORPG I can think of launched with somewhere between "quite a lot of bugs" to "HOLY SHIT ITS MADE OF BUGS" (looking at you, Pathfinder Kingmaker).

(this is where someone leaps in with a "example" of a bug-free release that's just totally wrong, and where the game was incredibly buggy at release but that person didn't play it until months or years later).

Being able to be completed with the bugs they have is another question, too. A lot of CRPGs/MMORPGs have absolutely been possible to complete with the bugs they have, yet some percentage of users are completely eff'd by the bugs, or can't complete it. No-one being able to complete it is almost (not entirely) unheard-of. The question is more what percentage of users have the problem, and can it be circumvented. MMOs have the advantage, that if the problem is rare enough, GMs can probably fix it, and if it's an easy fix, the company can hotfix it, perhaps just hours after it becomes obvious it's a bad problem (CRPGs rarely get this). Legion had a bug that stopped my wife being able to level her Druid until a GM fixed it, for example (we tried all the workarounds the boards suggested, none worked, and we weren't the only ones that was happening to).

The idea that Bethesda bugs are "charming" is pretty funny, too, given they've had some of the very worst bugs I can think of, including the save-file corruption bug on the PS3 version of Skyrim.

No, I’m not comparing it to WoW. I used it in a direct argument that a game can be considered a finished product even though it has bugs. This holds especially true if the bugs aren’t game breaking.
My original point is that WoW has never been released but free. Some of those bugs have been game breaking.
I also stated that some, some, of Bethesda bugs are charming. There have been multiple graphical glitches people have come to expect from them, as well as just some random things happening in game. Hell, there are even reviews on some Bethesda games where the reviewer even has a phrase that I read years ago that stated (paraphrasing) “it even has the bugs and glitches we’ve come to expect and enjoy in their (Bethesda’s) games.”
As far as the being bug free argument, the person I quoted stated every game has bugs and can’t be considered complete due to those bugs being there. I brought up every game in a direct argument, meaning multiple games ranging from multiplayer to single player have bugs, that aren’t game breaking, that are considered a finished product.

Honestly, read and understand the points someone is making before you try and refute them.

[kaminaris]

Here leveling from 2 months ago 9 1/2 hours footage. Not a single bug questing from 50 to 60. Delusional yeah right. I see who is delusional here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhEUZeRHRjg


Quote from blizzard themselves: "it’s become clear we need a little more time for additional polish, and to balance and iterate on some interlocking pieces"

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...on-shadowlands

Again, I can see who is delusional here.

Ah so this is your delusion, I see. You don't know that there are basically 12x4 combinations and just because you didn't happen to brick your character doesn't mean everyone else had highway to max level. Just read bugreports forum and then speak.
Just examples from couple of days ago:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...te-mess/669369
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ate-bug/671022
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-hunter/670455
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...raction/670266

and many others. You still think everything is working fine? You need to accept that some of this bugs might hit live.

On the other hand blizzard is literally capable of tuning all specs in under week like they showed in legion/bfa couple of times.

- - - Updated - - -

do you? because i was talking about BFAbeing released in an unfinished state, not what it did or did not became.

99.9% of BfA was working. Whatever you liked they way it worked doesn't change a fact that it was WORKING.
Thing is, since MoP I level all 12 classes to max because I have to so I kinda have comparison.

SL is the first expansion in Beta that I managed to brick a character few months before release, 3 times.
By the time BfA was in similar state I was testing bugs in mythic dungeons.

And there were few like SoB pets bugged on last platform, last boss that were fixed... 2 major patches after release. However none of these were absolutely bricking you.

As for quests that you had to "restart"...
I did full loremaster about year ago. Every expansion had at least dozen of them. And I still managed to "brick" a character in Vanilla in Winterspring, had to write a ticket for GM to give me a missing quests.

So I don't even consider quests that sometimes bugs out and needs to be restarted as bug. It's basically a feature of wow, that still happens with tons of old quests.

[Relapses]

Wrong assumption right there. They are delaying it because it's not finished...
From there your whole reasoning is useless.

You must be a blast at parties.

- - - Updated - - -

What alternative progression system do you think was good then?

To me Artifact Power was the best iteration, by far. By making effort being your way to progress, with no rng attached. The best iteration for me was from the start as a main, but from 7.1.5 was probably better overall since it got alt-friendly as well then.

Personally, I liked the Legendary systems from MoP and WoD that "leveled up" as the expansion went along.

[Clozer]

Ah so this is your delusion, I see. You don't know that there are basically 12x4 combinations and just because you didn't happen to brick your character doesn't mean everyone else had highway to max level. Just read bugreports forum and then speak.
Just examples from couple of days ago:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...te-mess/669369
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ate-bug/671022
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-hunter/670455
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...raction/670266

and many others. You still think everything is working fine? You need to accept that some of this bugs might hit live.

On the other hand blizzard is literally capable of tuning all specs in under week like they showed in legion/bfa couple of times.

- - - Updated - - -



99.9% of BfA was working. Whatever you liked they way it worked doesn't change a fact that it was WORKING.
Thing is, since MoP I level all 12 classes to max because I have to so I kinda have comparison.

SL is the first expansion in Beta that I managed to brick a character few months before release, 3 times.
By the time BfA was in similar state I was testing bugs in mythic dungeons.

And there were few like SoB pets bugged on last platform, last boss that were fixed... 2 major patches after release. However none of these were absolutely bricking you.

As for quests that you had to "restart"...
I did full loremaster about year ago. Every expansion had at least dozen of them. And I still managed to "brick" a character in Vanilla in Winterspring, had to write a ticket for GM to give me a missing quests.

So I don't even consider quests that sometimes bugs out and needs to be restarted as bug. It's basically a feature of wow, that still happens with tons of old quests.

I showed you 10-hour footage of doing nearly every single quest in SL bugfree, because you said it was unplayable. Then you backed off and said but here are 2 bugged abilities so they delayed SL because they need their time to fix those.

Then you follow it up by saying blizzard can tune the content in under a week. Yes. Like this:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../24#dataset=90

Or at any other time in this expansion or any other expansion before that. What a joke.

In what kind of dream do you live in?

[qwerty123456]

Yes really. They've been in quarantine for five months from March to August. If after five months they couldn't account for the loss of productivity due to quarantine then management is far worse then I thought.

And yet games and other shit all over the world are having the same problems. Its almost as if they never had to deal with sustained long term work from home situations before.....

What's more plausible Blizzard suddenly thinking they need to change shit last minute after years of planning and development even though many games and shit all over the world are also experiencing delays and cut content or that people over estimated the shit they could get done??

[Thestrawman]

And yet games and other shit all over the world are having the same problems. Its almost as if they never had to deal with sustained long term work from home situations before.....

What's more plausible Blizzard suddenly thinking they need to change shit last minute after years of planning and development even though many games and shit all over the world are also experiencing delays and cut content or that people over estimated the shit they could get done??

It needed delayed but Covid had nothing to do with it. It's not like the release date was announced six months in advance. They announced it at the end of August. They are the ones that said we as a company can get this product released on 8 weeks. I'll repeat it again, they gave an eight week notice of their release date.

What possible complication from the pandemic between the end of August till last week could be the reason for the delay? Had the release date been announced in March you might have had a point.

[qwerty123456]

It needed delayed but Covid had nothing to do with it. It's not like the release date was announced six months in advance. They announced it at the end of August. They are the ones that said we as a company can get this product released on 8 weeks. I'll repeat it again, they gave an eight week notice of their release date.

What possible complication from the pandemic between the end of August till last week could be the reason for the delay? Had the release date been announced in March you might have had a point.

You seriously don't think that some people when not constantly watched don't slack? Or that zoom aren't as good as actual meetings? etc... And Why was Warframes Heart of Deimos buggy as fuck with cut content? Why STO need to push back content? etc... If it was just Blizzard you might have a point but when tons of shit puts out release dates then needs to move them back or releases buggy as hell then it just sounds like someone trying to troll.

[dojichan]

It needed delayed but Covid had nothing to do with it. It's not like the release date was announced six months in advance. They announced it at the end of August. They are the ones that said we as a company can get this product released on 8 weeks. I'll repeat it again, they gave an eight week notice of their release date.

What possible complication from the pandemic between the end of August till last week could be the reason for the delay? Had the release date been announced in March you might have had a point.

Im guessing you are not a developer. You don't seem to understand how MVP timelines can be effected even with Covid. Agile is a great process but over/under estimation is a common outcome. Covid made this much worse.

[Relapses]

You seriously don't think that some people when not constantly watched don't slack? Or that zoom aren't as good as actual meetings? etc... And Why was Warframes Heart of Deimos buggy as fuck with cut content? Why STO need to push back content? etc... If it was just Blizzard you might have a point but when tons of shit puts out release dates then needs to move them back or releases buggy as hell then it just sounds like someone trying to troll.

What does any of that have to do with the fact that they announced the release date in August and if they didn't think they could reasonably release the expansion by the date they provided...maybe they should have chosen a different date?

[Kralljin]

Im guessing you are not a developer. You don't seem to understand how MVP timelines can be effected even with Covid. Agile is a great process but over/under estimation is a common outcome. Covid made this much worse.

Point is that by the time they *announced* the release date, they have been working from home for months, hence any delay caused by the pandemic should have been taken into account already.

[Daronokk]

Anyone who has payed attention to the beta even remotely will tell you this delay is a good thing. It just wasn’t unfinished, the game is in shambles.

But like OP said, so was BfA. and that released just like that.

[dojichan]

Point is that by the time they *announced* the release date, they have been working from home for months, hence any delay caused by the pandemic should have been taken into account already.

O I heard that point in the comment I originally responded to. It is just a dumb point.
Even at their best, Buisness/Product/Devs/Etc over or underestimate the time a task will take. It is common for things to be added and removed during the Agile process. Typically this doesn't prevent you from reaching a MVP. Covid is a nightmare for this process... It throws a huge miscalculation into every step.

I don't know what caused blizzard to make this error. It could have been a poor choice in a feature(that now has to be redone), a poor choice in upper management(of setting impossible goals)...or many other issues. We have no clue which it was for certain. But anyone who says "It couldn't of been covid" or "they should have taken covid into account" Has no understanding of how the process works.

[qwerty123456]

What does any of that have to do with the fact that they announced the release date in August and if they didn't think they could reasonably release the expansion by the date they provided...maybe they should have chosen a different date?

Because they assumed they would make it??? Explain to me why dozens of companies have had the same/similar situations of announcing dates then pushing back? Why is Blizzard this massively retarded conspiracy you came up with and yet the others are not?

If the concept artists and the modelers are going at a near equal pace as they used to but the bug fixers/dungeon designers/what ever are going at a third of the pace they used to but they don't start until later in the development cycle how is Blizzard going to know that X is going to be vastly slower then it "should be"?

[Relapses]

Because they assumed they would make it??? Explain to me why dozens of companies have had the same/similar situations of announcing dates then pushing back? Why is Blizzard this massively retarded conspiracy you came up with and yet the others are not?

If the concept artists and the modelers are going at a near equal pace as they used to but the bug fixers/dungeon designers/what ever are going at a third of the pace they used to but they don't start until later in the development cycle how is Blizzard going to know that X is going to be vastly slower then it "should be"?

You are suggesting that Blizzard's management is so wildly inept that when they announced a release date 8 weeks prior to the launch of the game that they had no idea how unfinished the game actually was. While possible, this cynical take doesn't really jive with any version of reality I'd like to believe.

[qwerty123456]

You are suggesting that Blizzard's management is so wildly inept that when they announced a release date 8 weeks prior to the launch of the game that they had no idea how unfinished the game actually was. While possible, this cynical take doesn't really jive with any version of reality I'd like to believe.

No I'm saying they didn't realize how long X and/or Y was going to actually take and so realizing that they weren't going to hit the target announced the delay. And considering many other games had similar situations its delusional to think they were waiting till the last minute then decided to create massive changes to the structure of the expansion. like you are claiming.

[Relapses]

No I'm saying they didn't realize how long X and/or Y was going to actually take and so realizing that they weren't going to hit the target announced the delay.

...this is their 8th expansion. If they can't reasonably gauge how finished their product is 8 weeks prior to release then there are far worse things than COVID-19 impacting Blizzard's ability to manage its time.

[Kralljin]

But anyone who says "It couldn't of been covid" or "they should have taken covid into account" Has no understanding of how the process works.

It doesn't change the fact that they've been working under those conditions for MONTHS now and then you maybe should be able to judge whether you're capable of handling a certain workload within no less than two months.

Like, the point is simple, if one doesn't take into account that things move slower due to conditions you've been working under for months, then you're not good at managing projects.

[glowpipe]

They haven't really changed jack shit and is still going the exact same direction, so maybe, just maybe the delay is because of this thing thats happening around the world. You know, this global pandemic ?

[dojichan]

It doesn't change the fact that they've been working under those conditions for MONTHS now and then you maybe should be able to judge whether you're capable of handling a certain workload within no less than two months.

Like, the point is simple, if one doesn't take into account that things move slower due to conditions you've been working under for months, then you're not good at managing projects.

I guess we have just observed very different things. Thanks for sharing you opinion.