SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Super Dickmann]

It's a shame they changed those sinstones, the ones that implied at least some opportunistic thinking in the verdict were more interesting, especially since it's one step forward in making Revendreth more what it says on the tin (i.e more dull), and one step back by making Krastinov of all people redeemable. Ditto the changes to the one that got tricked by Dreadlords. Eliminating the more esoteric mindset is a shame, but inevitable.

[Aucald]

It's a shame they changed those sinstones, the ones that implied at least some opportunistic thinking in the verdict were more interesting, especially since it's one step forward in making Revendreth more what it says on the tin (i.e more dull), and one step back by making Krastinov of all people redeemable.

If Zill'kee "the World Reaper" is eligible for redemption in Revendreth, I suppose Krastinov qualifies.

[Nagawithlegs]

The naaru change is funny, because I'm not sure if the change was meant to show that not all Venthyr hate the Naaru (as it is heavily implied it was Denathrius's fault for the Light invasion, hence why "vile naaru" may have been a view of his or his loyal followers) or it was only changed in an attempt to soothe hurt feelings of male human paladin players who get their panties in a twist whenever it's remotely insinuated that the Light could be antagonistic.

[Feanoro]

The naaru change is funny, because I'm not sure if the change was meant to show that not all Venthyr hate the Naaru (as it is heavily implied it was Denathrius's fault for the Light invasion, hence why "vile naaru" may have been a view of his or his loyal followers) or it was only changed in an attempt to soothe hurt feelings of male human paladin players who get their panties in a twist whenever it's remotely insinuated that the Light could be antagonistic.

Or maybe suddenly pushing "Light is evil too guiz" is another massive change from the existing lore.

[Varodoc]

Just because the Sinstone was updated doesn't mean anything, because the original text was still reviewed by the lore team and put in the game. Which means that the writers endorse the idea of the Arbiter redeeming people if they torture a naaru, but maybe they just don't want to make it too obvious so early in the expansion.

The Naaru forces led by the naaru Z'rali were vast beyond counting and incinerated a large area of Revendreth and came close to wiping out all venthyr. It is therefore not a surprise that the Arbiter is afraid of the Light, and is willing to offer redemption to any soul that tortured naaru in the past.

The Light and Void are neither evil nor good. They simply are. Just as they existed at the very beginning of the cosmos, so shall they exist at the end.

[Aucald]

Just because the Sinstone was updated doesn't mean anything, because the original text was still reviewed by the lore team and put in the game. Which means that the writers endorse the idea of the Arbiter redeeming people if they torture a naaru, but maybe they just don't want to make it too obvious so early in the expansion.

The Naaru forces led by the naaru Z'rali were vast beyond counting and incinerated a large area of Revendreth and came close to wiping out all venthyr. It is therefore not a surprise that the Arbiter is afraid of the Light, and is willing to offer redemption to any soul that tortured naaru in the past.

The Light and Void are neither evil nor good. They simply are. Just as they existed at the very beginning of the cosmos, so shall they exist at the end.

No, that's not really how Beta/PTR canon works. Otherwise Rommath would be a traitor as in the Cata Beta he joined the Old Gods and the Twilight's Hammer, Taran Zhu would be dead as he sacrifices himself to contain the Sha of Fear in the MoP Beta, and about a hundred or so other major lore changes that would be in effect.

If a piece of lore is removed in a PTR or Beta then it's gone as if it never were. Which is another reason why the story shouldn't really be judged until the Live version.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Just because the Sinstone was updated doesn't mean anything, because the original text was still reviewed by the lore team and put in the game. Which means that the writers endorse the idea of the Arbiter redeeming people if they torture a naaru, but maybe they just don't want to make it too obvious so early in the expansion.

They clearly do not endorse that idea since they removed and updated it with something else.

[Varodoc]

No, that's not really how Beta/PTR canon works. Otherwise Rommath would be a traitor as in the Cata Beta he joined the Old Gods and the Twilight's Hammer, Taran Zhu would be dead as he sacrifices himself to contain the Sha of Fear in the MoP Beta, and about a hundred or so other major lore changes that would be in effect.

If a piece of lore is removed in a PTR or Beta then it's gone as if it never were. Which is another reason why the story shouldn't really be judged until the Live version.

This isn't story, this is lore/world-building.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yes, it is possible. But in any case, the vents serve Denatrius and did it on his orders, and not on the orders of the Jailer as this guy is trying to prove.

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What does clear as day mean? Are you so overwhelmed with lore knowledge that you can determine the full scale of the plot from a couple of sentences in the in-game book? Denatrius serves the Jailer NOW. I'm asking for proof that he served the Jailer at that time. Do you really not understand or are you just kidding?

Again, will you give me any proofs? I'm not surprised. Okay, I'll call them Eternal Ones if you find it easier.

Yes, and in one of the interviews, all Eternal Ones were called equal Titans, but recently it was said that the Winter Queen is weaker than the Titans. We have no idea how strong they are, so we have to wait for more information.

Then why let us go? What stopped us from killing us right there and taking our souls? You’re just trying to justify this wretched little line in which we run away from a cartoon villain, while trying to prove that he is meaner and scarier than Sargeras.

So dangerous? Why? Because wowhead said he was titan ++? The description of the evil that can break out and destroy everything can apply to the entire army of the Maw. Damn it, the game says that Argus could destroy the entire universe with one spell and we still defeated him. So are you really trying to say that the Jailer is a super scary threat, and Blizzard did not write nonsense again to make the raid boss seem scarier?

I wouldn't know why Denathrius would do this on his account alone, when he's so hellbent on serving the Jailer. And we also know that the Jailer is older than reality itself, so it is possible him and Denathrius were at it beforehand. But, whatever.

The interviews are weird, especially the new one, cause it also states that the "Titan Keepers are also part of the Titan Pantheon, and the Eternal Ones are comparable to that", which is completely fucking stupid on literally every account. So, I try to keep that interview you linked with a grain of salt.

"Then why let us go? What stopped us from killing us right there and taking our souls? You’re just trying to justify this wretched little line in which we run away from a cartoon villain, while trying to prove that he is meaner and scarier than Sargeras." I really have no reasoning for this. It's just Blizzard being bad writers.

"So dangerous? Why? Because wowhead said he was titan ++? The description of the evil that can break out and destroy everything can apply to the entire army of the Maw. Damn it, the game says that Argus could destroy the entire universe with one spell and we still defeated him. So are you really trying to say that the Jailer is a super scary threat, and Blizzard did not write nonsense again to make the raid boss seem scarier?" Well, maybe, but almost everyone, including Bolvar, suggests that the Jailer alone is the "ancient evil" we need to worry about. The Mawsworn seem to be just lackey's in comparison. Also, Argus was going to end all of creation, which is far beyond mere Universal capabilities. The game does a terrible job of showing it though, cause of game design and engine limits. Simple as that.

Also, the Jailer is probably a super scary threat because Blizzard said he was a super scary threat when making him up. That's usually how lots of games do things, including WoW, when Blizzard introduced the Void Lords out of literally nowhere. Same goes with Anime like DB, where it introduces new threats out of nowhere, and they're randomly stronger than the last threat. So yeah, Blizzard did write nonsense to make the Jailer seem scarier, because he kinda has to be for the game and the story to work this expansion. It's really nothing new.

And I'm not trying to pin the Jailer as this super ultimate bad guy either, like you think I am. The guy shat his pants when we activated a relic of the First Ones (Who are probably the BIG deal in WoW, currently, though it's a little too early to tell), and we know the Void Lords and the Light are going to have their expansion still after we defeat the Jailer, so it's not like he's an end all be all villain. But, at the moment, he's definitely our biggest threat.

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This isn't story, this is lore/world-building.

Aren't Lore and Stories part of the same thing though?

[Aucald]

This isn't story, this is lore/world-building.

You can't do world-building with invalid lore.

[Varodoc]

Aren't Lore and Stories part of the same thing though?

Story = The plot, the development, all the events that you see in-game. The War of Thorns is story development, for example.

Lore = Everything pertaining to the background, the past, something that you do not experience yourself but are told by someone else. The Chronicles are lore, the Sinstones of people who went to the Shadowlands years ago are lore.

You can't do world-building with invalid lore.

Lore and world-building are the same thing, and since Shadowlands has not even begun yet, you don't know if the removal of that Sinstone is because Blizzard changed their mind or they want to wait more time for that lore reveal.

Besides, we already know the Light and Shadowlands are at war with each others, so I don't know you people think it's so far-fetched that the Arbiter would reward those who are hostile to the Light.

[TheFirstOnes]

Ah. But either way...

Dude, I'm not gonna lie to you, but the Light/Shadow conflict is probably not going to be the last thing. It'll be a critical moment, sure. But, I think the First Ones will be last. Or, at the very least, one evil bastard from within the First Ones. Idk :/ Maybe the Void Lords will be the last guys, but I doubt it. Blizz does like to milk their franchises to the bare bone.

[darkoms]

I wouldn't know why Denathrius would do this on his account alone, when he's so hellbent on serving the Jailer. And we also know that the Jailer is older than reality itself, so it is possible him and Denathrius were at it beforehand. But, whatever.

The interviews are weird, especially the new one, cause it also states that the "Titan Keepers are also part of the Titan Pantheon, and the Eternal Ones are comparable to that", which is completely fucking stupid on literally every account. So, I try to keep that interview you linked with a grain of salt.

"Then why let us go? What stopped us from killing us right there and taking our souls? You’re just trying to justify this wretched little line in which we run away from a cartoon villain, while trying to prove that he is meaner and scarier than Sargeras." I really have no reasoning for this. It's just Blizzard being bad writers.

"So dangerous? Why? Because wowhead said he was titan ++? The description of the evil that can break out and destroy everything can apply to the entire army of the Maw. Damn it, the game says that Argus could destroy the entire universe with one spell and we still defeated him. So are you really trying to say that the Jailer is a super scary threat, and Blizzard did not write nonsense again to make the raid boss seem scarier?" Well, maybe, but almost everyone, including Bolvar, suggests that the Jailer alone is the "ancient evil" we need to worry about. The Mawsworn seem to be just lackey's in comparison. Also, Argus was going to end all of creation, which is far beyond mere Universal capabilities. The game does a terrible job of showing it though, cause of game design and engine limits. Simple as that.

Also, the Jailer is probably a super scary threat because Blizzard said he was a super scary threat when making him up. That's usually how lots of games do things, including WoW, when Blizzard introduced the Void Lords out of literally nowhere. Same goes with Anime like DB, where it introduces new threats out of nowhere, and they're randomly stronger than the last threat. So yeah, Blizzard did write nonsense to make the Jailer seem scarier, because he kinda has to be for the game and the story to work this expansion. It's really nothing new.

And I'm not trying to pin the Jailer as this super ultimate bad guy either, like you think I am. The guy shat his pants when we activated a relic of the First Ones (Who are probably the BIG deal in WoW, currently, though it's a little too early to tell), and we know the Void Lords and the Light are going to have their expansion still after we defeat the Jailer, so it's not like he's an end all be all villain. But, at the moment, he's definitely our biggest threat.

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Aren't Lore and Stories part of the same thing though?

Again. Where is Denatrius obsessed with serving the Jailer and when will you give me proof that Denatrius served the Jailer at that time? And how can the Jailer be older than reality if the First Ones created reality and the Jailer seems to be younger than them? Bolvar is too hyperbolic in his statements. If the Jailer is older than reality and can destroy the entire cosmos, then Argus can destroy the entire universe with one spell. And do you believe that? Don't answer, though, because you believe what you like. Years ago, your nickname was Argus the Unmaker and you argued that Argus is an Über-strong creature because it can destroy the universe with one spell, although it was obvious that it was not.

No, they said that the Guardians are part of the Pantheon of Order and that the Eternals are compatible with them in the sense that they are lower than the Titans, but very powerful, aren't they?

This is understandable, but you still started to argue with my statement that the Jailer looks poor after the start chain.

And Krasus believed that the Old Gods were stronger than Sargeras. In-game characters' opinions are not always 100% canon, you know. Just like the Legion are just lackeys of Sargeras, but it was the entire Legion that posed the threat to the universe. Rather, Argus simply COULD NOT do it, because after defeating the players, he tells Sargeras that he is going to claim his prize.

He MAY be a formidable threat, after all, his army is probably equal to the Legion and he is an incredibly powerful being in himself, but I just don't think he's as scary as you are trying to describe him.

LOL what? He was simply surprised that the relic was activated by a mortal, he did not ''shat it in his pants''. Of course he is our biggest threat. He is the main villain of the expansion.

[Aucald]

Lore and world-building are the same thing, and since Shadowlands has not even begun yet, you don't know if the removal of that Sinstone is because Blizzard changed their mind or they want to wait more time for that lore reveal.

Besides, we already know the Light and Shadowlands are at war with each others, so I don't know you people think it's so far-fetched that the Arbiter would reward those who are hostile to the Light.

World-building is the creation of a setting, "lore" in the general sense is both the story of said setting as well as the events of the story occurring in it. We have no idea what the final product will be, but if a piece of lore is removed from the Beta or PTR then it basically becomes non-canon unless they decided to re-add or revisit it later on - which may or may not occur (and it wouldn't become canon again until it does occur).

We actually know very little about the conflicts between the realms of Death and those of the Light, Void, or otherwise. We know that the Light has for some reason attacked Revendreth, and we also know that the Void attacked Bastion and either also attacked Maldraxxus or Maldraxxus attacked the Void. The specifics of these battles, as well as the reasons behind them, are all unknown. The Arbiter's personality as a whole is also wholly unknown, at least for the time being. The Arbiter may not give a fig for the Light or the Void, as neither are necessary part of her duties as the judge of the dead, or she could be completely partisan to some degree or another.

[darkoms]

World-building is the creation of a setting, "lore" in the general sense is both the story of said setting as well as the events of the story occurring in it. We have no idea what the final product will be, but if a piece of lore is removed from the Beta or PTR then it basically becomes non-canon unless they decided to re-add or revisit it later on - which may or may not occur (and it wouldn't become canon again until it does occur).

We actually know very little about the conflicts between the realms of Death and those of the Light, Void, or otherwise. We know that the Light has for some reason attacked Revendreth, and we also know that the Void attacked Bastion and either also attacked Maldraxxus or Maldraxxus attacked the Void. The specifics of these battles, as well as the reasons behind them, are all unknown. The Arbiter's personality as a whole is also wholly unknown, at least for the time being. The Arbiter may not give a fig for the Light or the Void, as neither are necessary part of her duties as the judge of the dead, or she could be completely partisan to some degree or another.

I'm not even sure if the Arbiter is a full-fledged person. I think she's just a robot.

[Aucald]

I'm not even sure if the Arbiter is a full-fledged person. I think she's just a robot.

She does look rather robotic, but it's hard telling. My assumption was that in order to be an impartial judge she would probably need to be kind of machine-like, bereft of real personality and thus bias, able to see perfectly rationally and logically to decide the best place for any given judged soul.

[TheFirstOnes]

She does look rather robotic, but it's hard telling. My assumption was that in order to be an impartial judge she would probably need to be kind of machine-like, bereft of real personality and thus bias, able to see perfectly rationally and logically to decide the best place for any given judged soul.

I doubt she's robotic at all. That same logic could apply to the Brokers then.

[Aucald]

I doubt she's robotic at all. That same logic could apply to the Brokers then.

True enough, though the Brokers have demonstrated personality aplenty so far. We know nothing about the Arbiter, and her role also kind of predicates a lack of emotionality - but anything could be conceivably be the case.

[TheFirstOnes]

Again. Where is Denatrius obsessed with serving the Jailer and when will you give me proof that Denatrius served the Jailer at that time? And how can the Jailer be older than reality if the First Ones created reality and the Jailer seems to be younger than them? Bolvar is too hyperbolic in his statements. If the Jailer is older than reality and can destroy the entire cosmos, then Argus can destroy the entire universe with one spell. And do you believe that? Don't answer, though, because you believe what you like. Years ago, your nickname was Argus the Unmaker and you argued that Argus is an Über-strong creature because it can destroy the universe with one spell, although it was obvious that it was not.

No, they said that the Guardians are part of the Pantheon of Order and that the Eternals are compatible with them in the sense that they are lower than the Titans, but very powerful, aren't they?

This is understandable, but you still started to argue with my statement that the Jailer looks poor after the start chain.

And Krasus believed that the Old Gods were stronger than Sargeras. In-game characters' opinions are not always 100% canon, you know. Just like the Legion are just lackeys of Sargeras, but it was the entire Legion that posed the threat to the universe. Rather, Argus simply COULD NOT do it, because after defeating the players, he tells Sargeras that he is going to claim his prize.

He MAY be a formidable threat, after all, his army is probably equal to the Legion and he is an incredibly powerful being in himself, but I just don't think he's as scary as you are trying to describe him.

LOL what? He was simply surprised that the relic was activated by a mortal, he did not ''shat it in his pants''. Of course he is our biggest threat. He is the main villain of the expansion.

I mean, being older than reality doesn't make you older than the entire Cosmic chart. The Shadowlands isn't part of Reality, though it is connected to it in a way. Reality is just the Great Dark, etc. Also, yes, Argus is still that uber strong, and it is still the case. The thing is, however, is that there are stronger characters now.

"No, they said that the Guardians are part of the Pantheon of Order and that the Eternals are compatible with them in the sense that they are lower than the Titans, but very powerful, aren't they?" But the Keepers are but creations to the Titan Pantheon (Which is the actual Pantheon of Order). The Eternal Ones are the Pantheon of Death, so they SHOULD be comparable to other Pantheons like the Titan Pantheon. Maybe not in Power, whatever, but definitely in status, etc. Why would they not?

"In-game characters' opinions are not always 100% canon" But Bolvar was literally connected to the Maw during his time as the Lich King. He is literally the Illidan or the Magni of SL. Why would he not know more than someone like Krasus, who didn't know shit about Sargeras or the Old Gods and their true power, tbh.

"Rather, Argus simply COULD NOT do it, because after defeating the players, he tells Sargeras that he is going to claim his prize" He says that as a wipe line even before he casts it. Lore-wise, the Raid encounter, and Aman'thul talk about the End of All Things, which Argus canonically uses once he kills us. This is PROBABLY the thing that broke the Machine of Death tbh, as Argus is called "the Death Titan", and is using all this power that doesn't seem to be connected to the Fel (Or Order, even. Though, some of his things are based on Order), despite him being a weakened world soul. But, if you want, then you can take it with a grain of salt.

"He MAY be a formidable threat, after all, his army is probably equal to the Legion and he is an incredibly powerful being in himself, but I just don't think he's as scary as you are trying to describe him." Hard to really care about an army the size of the Legion when we beat the Legion 3 years ago. :/ I doubt that's the worst the Jailer has to offer.

"LOL what? He was simply surprised that the relic was activated by a mortal, he did not ''shat it in his pants''." Is that why he wanted to claim us as soon as possible before entering the portal? Granted, you could argue that was due to him not wanting us to escape the "inescapable Maw", but I believe it's more than that. Hell, we're probably one of the few guys that can actually activate these relics, as it appears not even the Jailer can activate a relic of theirs. Could mean we're a bigger deal than we let on tbh.

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True enough, though the Brokers have demonstrated personality aplenty so far. We know nothing about the Arbiter, and her role also kind of predicates a lack of emotionality - but anything could be conceivably be the case.

Then again, she is in a coma throughout 9.0 lol. We'll see from here. Would be funny if she was like a robot though.

[Aucald]

Then again, she is in a coma throughout 9.0 lol. We'll see from here. Would be funny if she was like a robot though.

Well, when I say a "robot" I don't mean a literal automaton like MOTHER, so to speak, but rather a being who is extremely dispassionate and eminently logical - more machine than human, you might say.