Wow have always been p2w with gold from farmers, but then it became official with the introduction of token.
Wow have always been p2w with gold from farmers, but then it became official with the introduction of token.
You keep arguing my point but don't seem to realize it. If an action isn't always illegal then the metaphor means that buying gold isn't always pay to win. Blizzard doesn't crack down on boosting because there is nothing wrong with boosting for gold. They have cracked down on boosting for real money and there was a high profile incident not to long ago regarding that.
Buying gold is not pay to win. You are buying gold not any power. If you use that gold to get power that still doesn't make buying gold pay to win because buying gold can also not be pay to win. Because you don't have to use that gold for character power. And if you use it for a mount you are not paying to win. If something can have two states it is not always one of the states.
- - - Updated - - -
Everything is indirectly being bought with real money since it is a subscription game.
- - - Updated - - -
Right. So if it can be used in a non pay to win situation then the very act of buying gold is not pay to win. It all depends on how you use the gold.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
Because your point makes no sense.
The point of the metaphor is to highlight the error in your logic specifically, legality is a binary state, either an action is illegal or it isn't, whether people are taking that action is irrelevant.
Things don't become "illegal" because people aren't doing it.
It is, because gold can be used to acquire power.
Repeating a wrong argument doesn't make it true.
You pay for the access, if you are unable to play for the rewards, then that's on you.
Pay to win allows you access those rewards despite your inability, because you pay real money to acquire them, the third party involvement is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things as the game ToS allow it.
Right. So you still don't pay to win. You pay to use gold and then can win with that gold just as if you didn't pay. Paying for gold gets you no advantage. It doesn't allow you to win something over someone who earns gold 100% in-game. As you said something is either X or Y. You've already established that buying gold is not always paying to win so therefore it can not just be pay to win.
It is simply just buying gold.
Which is exactly what buying gold gives. Access. You still have to play to gain any power from gold.You pay for the access, if you are unable to play for the rewards, then that's on you.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
So close, yet still so far.
I find it humerous at this point that you essentially admitted that the WoW Token enabled Pay to win, but still try to save face by arguing "No, but you can also use it for other things, this totally redeems it!".
You do realize that you equate to buying a boost to actually doing it yourself?
That there is a slight discrepancy of skill (if one is even bonkers enough to argue that buying a boost requires "skill") present between these two actions keeps eluding you.
I never said that at all. Gold gives access to things including power regardless of the source of that gold. Merely having gold does not confer any power and requires other actions in the game. Buying gold is not pay to win because you are not buying power. You are buying gold that gives you access to a bunch of different things. You are not required to use that gold to buy power.
You can't be paying to win with buying gold if you can use that gold for non pay to win activities. You keep saying that something is pay to win if any fraction of it can be used to gain power. Yet keep excluding subscriptions and anything else that doesn't fit your view.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
Just for a start, I wasn't talking about my opinion vs his opinion. I was rebutting his line of reasoning that because something is an opinion, that it cannot be wrong or argued against.
In his specific case I was pointing that his opinion was weak based on the Toulmin scheme of reasoning, in that it lacked both warrants and backing: In other words, his opinion not only lacked any kind of solid reasoning, it also ran counter to what is broadly accepted.
It's akin to arguing that the earth is flat, while refusing to offer any explanation for why that is, dismissing the fact that scientific consensus is that the earth is not flat, and then trying to defend your stance on the basis that "hey, it's an opinion, so it can't be wrong - we can agree to disagree".
- - - Updated - - -
No he did not. You've just twisted what he did say in order to create a strawman.
There is a fundamental difference between being able to pay in order to "win" and having to pay in order to "win". "Pay-to-win" means the latter.
PS: Another pertinent point here that disqualifies the token from being "pay-to-win" is the fact that you can't use gold to buy power from the game. The means for converting gold into power is by enlisting the aid of other players. And while that might have some similar outcomes, and as such, to the uninitiated, appear similar to pay-to-win, it's actually something else entirely.
Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-10-16 at 11:45 AM.
You pay real money for massive advantages in the game. It seems you also forgot the meaning and origin of p2w trying to argue semantics now.
"Oh gee do you really win" ? Oh wow its gold from players as if you are paying cash directly to players and not Blizzard or even that were the case the lack of logic and relevancy to the Pay Real Money for Massive Advantages problem.
It doesn't buy you EVERYTHING in the game ? Damn check mate. Clearly no longer p2w. You just have to settle for Cutting Edge and Gladiator boosts with all the gear reserved.
Edit: I just noticed your last paragraph. So you must be one of those selling boosts. Now all this non defence of this p2w mechanism makes sense.
Last edited by Vorkreist; 2020-10-16 at 11:45 AM.
After reading through this joke of a thread, if we say we agree with you that WoW is P2W will it make you people like, you know, quit the game, and shut the fuck up?
Anyone who thinks WoW is P2W has never played an actual P2W game like Neverwinter where you could directly buy superior gear that was literally locked behind grinds if you didn't want to pay irl cash.
WoW is pay to catchup at the absolute most.
There is no meaningful thing in wow that you can buy that puts you on a higher level than everyone else that doesn't buy.
If you buy boosts, you STILL require that people already have the gear to boost you. If you buy gear, you STILL require that people have made or farmed that gear: was TBC P2W if you bought mats off the ah and got a crafter to make good items for you before everyone else had it?
People in this thread keep talking bullshit about corruption because it was objectively providing much stronger bonuses than it perhaps should have and therefore buying a piece was P2W. These people are wrong and again completely disregard the fact that those items come directly from the playerbase which, excluding extreme levels of luck, would require that the farmers already have an at least semi-competent level of gear. And talking about corruption, with it gone is WoW still P2W because of it according to certain posters?
Anyone who thinks WoW is a pay to win game, go and play an actual pay to win game first and then come back with some arguments that aren't full of shit.
Speciation Is Gradual
Not true. You pay real money to other players to get them to help you out by giving you some of the gold they made by playing the game. And the amount of gold you acquire through tokens, by design, is small relative to what it is possible to make in the game. It's neither this "massive advantage" you're making it out to be, nor is it the game doing anything for you.
It seems you don't know the meaning and origin of p2w. Which is a player donates money to the game in order to access a game feature that gives them a significant advantage over players not using the feature.
You're just being hyperbolic (while ironically trying to tell me I'm the one lacking in logic ). You're not buying any "Massive Advantages". You're paying another player to give you some of what they have obtained in the game.
First off, if you're having to pay someone else to boost you to CE or Glad, how on earth do you call that "winning"?
Secondly, since when was buying a boost something exclusive to token buyers? Buying a token isn't getting other players to boost you through hard content, it's getting other players to give you gold, which is a mundane task that any player can do.
Thirdly, if it's another player helping you, that's not p2w because the game isn't giving you an unfair advantage over others, it's the other players that are giving you that advantage.
Not at all. I am not good enough at any of that content to be able to sell my assistance for gold like that.
But it's interesting that you have to reach for conspiracy-theory like explanations when the argument has been so clearly laid out for you. I guess you have just this massive irrational problem with tokens that you prevents you from being able to have reasonable discussion here.
Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-10-16 at 03:47 PM.
This is the logical implication, if you can buy gold without breaking the ToS and are allowed to buy boosts for gold without breaking the ToS, you are able to buy power without breaking the ToS.
If you are able to do that, you have effectively a pay to win game.
There is no strawman, you and him are just trying to argue that simply because you can also buy something else with gold, somehow creates a new state, which is blatantly false.
By that logic, almost no game is pay to win because then it only applies to games where you are forced to buy power.
The existence of a cash shop where you are able to buy power (or just the currency that can be used to acquire power) turns it into pay to win, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
"Just because i'm not using it, means the game is not pay to win!" is utterly stupid and yet perfectly encapsulates your argument, the attempt to redefine it is just a poor excuse to defend this business practice.
I'm losing count of how many people keep bringing up this supposed to "loophole", yet i'm telling you the same thing i've told the last person: Read the previous posts.
You are neither special nor smart to bring this up, just too lazy to read.
Edit: Fuck me, i realized that it's even in the very post you've quoted.
if you can buy gold without breaking the ToS and are allowed to buy boosts for gold without breaking the ToS, you are able to buy power without breaking the ToS.
If you are able to do that, you have effectively a pay to win game.
Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-10-16 at 04:50 PM.
People using the term "Pay to win" for WoW are using a term they do not fully understand because they think using it makes them sound like they have a valid point.
It absolutely isn't, when people who break an agreement or law, it's something different to a situation when people can do the same action without fearing any repercussions.
Like, imagine saying "People are still stealing, hence theft being illegal is a arbitrary restriction".
It's a pretty simple distinction, really.
Depends what you mean by win. Pay to get power? Sure, but it's mostly "pay to get power sooner" which only matters if you're competing for WF etc. Do you need to pay to be competitive at the highest levels? Yup, gotta get that big BoEs ASAP.
You can pay to get a lot of cosmetics, achievements, boosts. But what are you really winning by paying? Mostly you're paying to skip content, and people paying for power upgrades doesn't really affect me, so, is it a problem?
Some people pay above the sub, some don't, doesn't really bother me either way.