Burning Crusade NO NERFS!!!!

[SirCowdog]

I'm personally on the side of having attunements exactly how they were in TBC. I personally believe they were perfect. The attunements weren't crazy difficult to go back and do for alts or replacing a tank. It was seriously just "Go do this raid and kill this boss". It took like one night out of one week to go back and get all the alts/new recruits up to par with attunements.

I love it because it made the entirety of TBC raids relevant throughout the entire expansion which was amazing. Without them you get something like todays raiding where it's 'play the patch' and you only try to raid the most current content.

The problem is that when you get into some of the later tiers, it's asking an entire raid group to go repeat irrelevant content just to catch up a guild alt for a PLAYER who's already done it.

As I said, for PUGs I agree with you. But for guilds it's unnecessary busywork when tje player already has a character that's done it before.

[Synical123]

The problem is that when you get into some of the later tiers, it's asking an entire raid group to go repeat irrelevant content just to catch up a guild alt for a PLAYER who's already done it.

As I said, for PUGs I agree with you. But for guilds it's unnecessary busywork when tje player already has a character that's done it before.

I get it, I really do, but in all honesty I still don't think it's that big of a deal. Why? Because 9/10 times if your a guild that is raiding that content you are only spending a fraction of your time in that current content, so this leaves a majority of the week open for things like alt runs, badge runs, etc... Most people might be doing these raids anyways, not to mention if you have an alt that literally JUST hit 70, it's sort of silly to just jump right into the hardest raid in the expansion right away. You will find a night where you will get most of these attunements done yourself, then your guild can schedule an alt night and get all the raids done easily.

I'm personally in the boat of alts shouldn't really get boosted instantly to their mains spot just because they have done it before. They are already going to go above and beyond others who are behind simply because of their skill, knowledge, and guild alone.

I do not think alts are a necessity or that they should be given special treatment just because they are alts. I know people may not like this analogy, but just because I make an alt and I am 2800 rating, have epic flying, and have max professions...that my alt should just instantly be given or have an easier path to getting those achievements as well. What kills content the fastest in a game like wow is when you make it irrelevant. Hence what we have today. Yes, it's NICER and EASIER to have a change like you are suggesting... but it just doesn't makes sense in the grand scheme of things IMO

[SirCowdog]

What kills content the fastest in a game like wow is when you make it irrelevant.

And what kills it event faster than that is players not doing it at all because they're sick of the bullshit. We saw this with the Essence grind in BfA. Sure, some high-end players did it. But most just didn't bother.

Making players repeat pointless busywork might be a good tactic for increasing playtime, but it's a terrible tactic for increasing fun.

[Synical123]

And what kills it event faster than that is players not doing it at all because they're sick of the bullshit. We saw this with the Essence grind in BfA. Sure, some high-end players did it. But most just didn't bother.

Making players repeat pointless busywork might be a good tactic for increasing playtime, but it's a terrible tactic for increasing fun.

Comparing an essence grind to literally just doing a raid one more time is sort of silly. Come on now lol.

[SirCowdog]

Comparing an essence grind to literally just doing a raid one more time is sort of silly. Come on now lol.

It's not just "doing a raid one more time". It's asking 10 to 25 people to do a raid that they've already done, and has no rewards left for them.

I don't think you fully grasp the magnitude of how tedious that gets when you have to do it EVERY TIME you recruit a new player or want to swap an alt.

[Synical123]

It's not just "doing a raid one more time". It's asking 10 to 25 people to do a raid that they've already done, and has no rewards left for them.

I don't think you fully grasp the magnitude of how tedious that gets when you have to do it EVERY TIME you recruit a new player or want to swap an alt.

No I complete get it. I’ve been playing on tbc private servers for years now. What I’m telling you is that it is no burden. When guilds full clear their current tier raids they have nothing to do for the rest of the week. Most have 2nd raid groups who are behind a tier or alt runs specifically to catch up on gear. That and most of the time at that point in the game where you are 2-3 tiers behind you want to farm as many badges on your main ANYWAY so going to these lower tier runs benefits you tremendously.

That and if you are still in a situation where you’re shit out of luck and can’t find a group for whatever the reason (which rarely ever happens) people are pugging these runs 24/7.

I don’t think you fully understand that without this, once you got your one raid for the week, you would be out of content or just farming random dungeons for badges.

Idk if you’re speaking from a perspective of years ago where pugging things like ssc were tough, but today it’s not an issue whatsoever. Period.

[SirCowdog]

No I complete get it. I’ve been playing on tbc private servers for years now. What I’m telling you is that it is no burden. When guilds full clear their current tier raids they have nothing to do for the rest of the week. Most have 2nd raid groups who are behind a tier or alt runs specifically to catch up on gear. That and most of the time at that point in the game where you are 2-3 tiers behind you want to farm as many badges on your main ANYWAY so going to these lower tier runs benefits you tremendously.

That and if you are still in a situation where you’re shit out of luck and can’t find a group for whatever the reason (which rarely ever happens) people are pugging these runs 24/7.

I don’t think you fully understand that without this, once you got your one raid for the week, you would be out of content or just farming random dungeons for badges.

Idk if you’re speaking from a perspective of years ago where pugging things like ssc were tough, but today it’s not an issue whatsoever. Period.

Sure, if all you're doing is raid-logging, what you say is true.

But the point I was making was that repeating the same content with no gain is tedious and unnecessary. It doesn't make any logical sense to force players to repeat it when they've already done it. The point of attunements is to ensure that a character and player is up to par. If the player(the person behind the keyboard) has already done it before, then they know what they're doing. If the character hasn't done it, then it's on the guild to accept that and decide to do a carry or not.

If the only argument is "Players won't have anything else to do in the week", then making the answer be "force 24 people to repeat crap they've already done just to replace a tank or healer, just so they can run the content they actually want to do" is a bad answer.

Making a dynamic where every player of a raid has to repeat the attunement process every single time a member of their raid swaps out is bad design, and WORSE than having nothing to do after raid-logging.

[Synical123]

Sure, if all you're doing is raid-logging, what you say is true.

But the point I was making was that repeating the same content with no gain is tedious and unnecessary. It doesn't make any logical sense to force players to repeat it when they've already done it. The point of attunements is to ensure that a character and player is up to par. If the player(the person behind the keyboard) has already done it before, then they know what they're doing. If the character hasn't done it, then it's on the guild to accept that and decide to do a carry or not.

If the only argument is "Players won't have anything else to do in the week", then making the answer be "force 24 people to repeat crap they've already done just to replace a tank or healer, just so they can run the content they actually want to do" is a bad answer.

Making a dynamic where every player of a raid has to repeat the attunement process every single time a member of their raid swaps out is bad design, and WORSE than having nothing to do after raid-logging.

Idk if you chose not to read most my post but the majority of the point I just made was that there is a gain for those who choose to carry them on their mains. Also that most of time you are running these with people who are getting gains from it in the first place.

[SirCowdog]

Idk if you chose not to read most my post but the majority of the point I just made was that there is a gain for those who choose to carry them on their mains. Also that most of time you are running these with people who are getting gains from it in the first place.

I repeat: "Making a dynamic where every player of a raid has to repeat the attunement process every single time a member of their raid swaps out is bad design, and WORSE than having nothing to do after raid-logging."

Yes, the alt or new raid member is getting some gain. But at the expense of every other person in the raid getting nothing besides wasted time.

The cost of running through an attunement, when an attunement has already happened for that player, so far outpaces the gain for that individual character that it's pedantic to claim benefit. Badges don't equate a significant enough value to warrant repeating the attunement.

And yes, I'm speaking from the context of actual TBC experience, not some private server which is known to not use the same rules or settings as the original game, and often gets things VERY wrong.

Well, unpopular opinion really nails it. I'm done here. Believe what you want.

[Synical123]

I repeat: "Making a dynamic where every player of a raid has to repeat the attunement process every single time a member of their raid swaps out is bad design, and WORSE than having nothing to do after raid-logging."

Yes, the alt or new raid member is getting some gain. But at the expense of every other person in the raid getting nothing besides wasted time.

The cost of running through an attunement, when an attunement has already happened for that player, so far outpaces the gain for that individual character that it's pedantic to claim benefit. Badges don't equate a significant enough value to warrant repeating the attunement.

And yes, I'm speaking from the context of actual TBC experience, not some private server which is known to not use the same rules or settings as the original game, and often gets things VERY wrong.

Well, unpopular opinion really nails it. I'm done here. Believe what you want.

Ok it’s clear to me you haven’t played tbc in awhile and have no clue how it’s played. Have a good one man.

[ihate2beapessimist]

You already have to compete with 25-40 other people for loot, on bosses you can only kill once a week.
Now you want them to make the bosses harder so that its not even guarenteed you will clear all the bosses in a week?
That's how you kill the game. No one wants to do impossibly difficult raids over and over again for even 6 months. If you want a challenge go play a challenging game, like a fighting game.

[Shaetha]

Other games have already gone through this exact scenario, and came up with solutions.

Everquest bosses have a buff that makes them significantly harder than their oldschool counterparts, to account for players knowing everything.

If Blizzard actually cared about "Presenting an authentic vanilla/bc experience" they would do something similar.

But they won't, cause they are just milking this for easy subs. I'm still glad they did it, but it could be so much better.

Which is fine to do if you want to totally exclude new players. The experience is supposed to be authentic for them, alone. It's just a nostalgia trip for everyone else.

[Scoobtbh]

I see ALOT of people posting most of the nerfs where fixes due to bugged encounters or mechanics. I actualy started doubting if that was really the case. There for I decided to go through the patch notes and see what they changed. I’ve indeed seen ALOT of fixes on PvE content. But i’ve also seen ALOT and ALOTLOT of nerfs to PvE content. Specificly reducing HP and ability casttimes, impact etc etc to make encounters ‘easier’ and ‘more accesable’. Lets not be mistaken with what a NERF is and a bug fix. These are 2 entierly diffrent things. Here is a short list of patches where they made ‘nerfs’ to PvE content. It’s ALOT. What suprices me most, is that apparently Gruul has never been nerfed. I believed he also underwent a big nerf. Let me fact check that though! Might have missed it in 2.1... but there's just so many nerfs... poeh.


Patch: 2.0.10. made nerfs to dungeons and Karazhan. Patch: 2.1.0. Some dungeon nerfs, but also buffs. Nerfs on Magtheridon (Channeler HP + Inferno DMG). Nerfs in SSC (Vashj no persuasion) most bosses nerfed in damage and in health. Nerfs in Karazhan; practicly everything has less health and does less dmg. Tempest Keep same story… everything is nerfed. Less HP less impactfull abilities aswel as less damage. Patch 2.1.2: Mount Hyjal trash nerfed 4 less trash waves, aswel as less creatures in these waves. Karazhan; Netherspite dmg nerf. Patch 2.2.0: Moste dungeons have been nerfed (again) abilities are cast slower and less impactfull. Damage overal has been nerfed. Black Temple: Mother Sharazah is been given a small nerf. Mount Hyjal: Archimonde has had fixes to prevent harder to counter combinations of his abilities. Aswel Jaina’s and Thralls health have been reduced to make them less likely of dying. So… More… nerfs for Mount Hyjal. SSC: More nerfs; especialy on trash, the dmg has been reduced significantly. Tempest Keep: Some reworks which is fair. Still applied some nerfs on trash (specificly in the damage dealt). 2.3.0. Some dungeons have been nerfed in damage done by trash/bosses. Tempest Keep: Keal’Thas has been nerfed (all adds reduced their health by 10%). Again… nerfs… especialy in damage dealt (see a pattern here? I’m not talking about bugs or fixes, i’m talking about nerfs that make the PvE content significantly easier). 2.3.2: Nothing too much; bug fixes. Some nerfs on the Keal’thas trash. Patch 2.4.: Some heroic nerfs. Mount Hyjal; small nerf to Azgalor. Magtheridon; complexitiy of the fight have changed to make it less difficult.

So no... the 'NO NERFS' I am talking about, is actual NERFS. I'm not talking about bugs, or hotfixes regarding to unintended bugs that a boss cleaves 360'. I'm talking about the changes they made in these following patches to reduce the difficulty of the PvE content. Take a look for yourself on WoW head what they have done! It's quite fascinating how many actual NERFS where applied to the content. My suggestion is; put revert them. Not the actual BUGS but the NERFS. Let's not talk about the BUGS anymore, let's talk about the actualy NERFS.... -_-... The topic states 'NO NERFS' not... 'BUGGED'.

[Heathy]

the problem is that the release heroics were absolute wipe fests, most tanks were paper thin compared to the hits they were taking and you had to CC nearly every pull. then you went to karazhan and the damage was still substantial (especially from certain mobs like the ghostly stewards who could gib tanks) but you had 1-2 more healers so it was easier overall karazhan compared to heroics, the nerfs just kinda made the difficulty curve an actual curve. in terms of raid boss fights the nerfs happened after they were killed mostly by the top end. but its the same principle of having a difficulty curve and tuning it so it flows that way.

[Scoobtbh]

the problem is that the release heroics were absolute wipe fests, most tanks were paper thin compared to the hits they were taking and you had to CC nearly every pull. then you went to karazhan and the damage was still substantial (especially from certain mobs like the ghostly stewards who could gib tanks) but you had 1-2 more healers so it was easier overall karazhan compared to heroics, the nerfs just kinda made the difficulty curve an actual curve. in terms of raid boss fights the nerfs happened after they were killed mostly by the top end. but its the same principle of having a difficulty curve and tuning it so it flows that way.

But why would this be a problem now? From What I read is that people will faceroll through it anyways. So why would everyone be so against 'launching' a game in it's 'unnerfed state'? Becuase you can faceroll allitle less faster?

[Heathy]

I think its the general idea around how they are going to manage to hotfix in a series of buffs and nerfs, I don't expect them to do that, run a patch cycle that nerfs the content periodically over time I just expect that it'll end up being the most balanced patch, it'll still be somewhat challenging doing it with level appropriate gear (and perhaps ppl who haven't done it before) it'll only really get faceroll when you out gear it.

the game changed in a variety of ways, in the beginning there were weapon skills, that was replaced by expertise, somewhere toward the latter end, when I started doing BT, there was a patch that nerfed spirit by about 30% (after I spent most of t5 stacking spirit) healing spells and magic and damage spells was consolidated into spell power at some point. there were various changes during tbc and I wouldn't expect them to do them all again.

[Scoobtbh]

I think its the general idea around how they are going to manage to hotfix in a series of buffs and nerfs, I don't expect them to do that, run a patch cycle that nerfs the content periodically over time I just expect that it'll end up being the most balanced patch, it'll still be somewhat challenging doing it with level appropriate gear (and perhaps ppl who haven't done it before) it'll only really get faceroll when you out gear it.

But the point is... #NoChanges. This is suggesting... no changes to an appropriate degree. I personally don't understand why people are thinking I am suggesting changes in this thread. I'm actualy suggesting dilver the game in it's 'polished stage' but without the 'decrease' of difficulty. Personally I'm against patching the game periodicly. But I still belief they should deliver it in the state I am suggesting.

[Heathy]

it just comes down to whether or not they have someone go over the database and retune the content or if they simply go with whatever it was at the end. from their end I can see it being more cost effective to not attempt to retune the entire expansion around the class balance in the final patch. because no matter what they do the ultimate conclusion is that it will all be faceroll with a group or raid clad in t6 (who all know what to do). they aren't going to be able to make it non-faceroll just by changing some health values its still going to eventually be out geared. sunwell is likely the only raid that didn't get massive nerfs afaik it was relevant right up to the wrath pre-patch and t6 was still alright at 80 for naxx25 I remember still using 4pt t6 and replacing it with t7. sunwell is likely going to be the biggest challenge in the same way that naxx is the real challenge in classic. the raid that had the least amount of clears the first time, and probably the least amount of nerfs too, the single piece of content that is tuned for minimal to zero fails.

[Synical123]

it just comes down to whether or not they have someone go over the database and retune the content or if they simply go with whatever it was at the end. from their end I can see it being more cost effective to not attempt to retune the entire expansion around the class balance in the final patch. because no matter what they do the ultimate conclusion is that it will all be faceroll with a group or raid clad in t6 (who all know what to do). they aren't going to be able to make it non-faceroll just by changing some health values its still going to eventually be out geared. sunwell is likely the only raid that didn't get massive nerfs afaik it was relevant right up to the wrath pre-patch and t6 was still alright at 80 for naxx25 I remember still using 4pt t6 and replacing it with t7. sunwell is likely going to be the biggest challenge in the same way that naxx is the real challenge in classic. the raid that had the least amount of clears the first time, and probably the least amount of nerfs too, the single piece of content that is tuned for minimal to zero fails.

Sunwell did have some massive nerfs. Pretty much every raid did. Honestly, if they CHOOSE to stick with a single patch this time, knowing they have all patches at their expense, it’s going to be a major let down.

[Heathy]

then it'll probably be a let down. I remember going into hyjal after wiping on vashj and kael for a month and thinking that t6 was a let down. unfortunately I don't think tbc scaled linearly, you have a lot of pretty faceroll content and a few standout encounters that require some level of co-ordination. most of it was pretty challenging for example doing karazhan and grulls in heroic gear and dungeon blues, doing t5 in t4, doing t6 in t5, this is when the game is challenging. but it still ultimately ends up being one single raid that is tuned above all else and requires everyone to be on their A game.

vashj, kael, archimonde, maybe leotheras/hydross and morogrim, these fights could be quite challenging the first few times. and will likely retain the same degree of challenge they presented the first time. those who know what to do will obviously have an easier time than those that don't. but fights that require you to do a specific thing in order to kill the boss. that is still going to be the same.

for vashj you have to do the cores.

for kael you have to get through the early phases and have most ppl get weapons for the last 1/2 phases

for archimonde, no one can die

leotheras and his random whirlwinds/bleed stacking

these things will still make this content, probably the hardest pre-sunwell content, still somewhat hard. in the same way that it was hard then.