Was making old gods not the big bad a mistake?

[Yarathir]

Technically they didn't really get the nerf bat, so to speak, they just got downgraded from being the worst the Void had to offer to being the second-worse it had to offer. Beyond that their powers and purpose didn't really change all that much.

Depends from what perspective you look at. Fairly sure the whole Titan/Old God thing was pretty vague before.. WotLK? Cataclysm, maybe? Regardless, there was a point at which it was implied that C'thun took down a Titan with him and was thought to have perished but was just very weakened in early texts (Classic) from what I recall.

But that was obviously later changed. Not only were the Titans expanded upon, but also their methods of waging war, more or less. Later, it turned into stuff like Titan Keepers fighting Old Gods for them and the strongest Old God being essentially a gnat that Aman'thul ripped out of Azeroth.

Void Lords to me represent some level of DBZ-ification of WoW.

[Aucald]

Depends from what perspective you look at. Fairly sure the whole Titan/Old God thing was pretty vague before.. WotLK? Cataclysm, maybe? Regardless, there was a point at which it was implied that C'thun took down a Titan with him and was thought to have perished but was just very weakened in early texts (Classic) from what I recall.

But that was obviously later changed. Not only were the Titans expanded upon, but also their methods of waging war, more or less. Later, it turned into stuff like Titan Keepers fighting Old Gods for them and the strongest Old God being essentially a gnat that Aman'thul ripped out of Azeroth.

Void Lords to me represent some level of DBZ-ification of WoW.

I'm not really familiar with DBZ to say - never really followed the series, though it's a claim I've heard more than once. In the original Classic lore, the Titans weren't planet-sized but more like giants of stone and metal, huge but not world-sized, and could fight in battles with regular forces more or less normally. In later lore this turned out more to be the Keepers than the Titans themselves, who actually *are* giants made of metal, as they were constructs created by the Titans. Whether this is considered a retcon or the result of an intentionally unreliable history is left more open.

When the Titans were "upgraded" to being colossal beings of planetary stature it stood to reason that their old foes, the Old Gods, couldn't similarly be upgraded without causing major narrative issues - as they were always bound to the history of Azeroth as more terrestrial enemies. This required the creation of a threat of similar scope who could stand opposite the Titans and explain their actions, and that's where the Void Lords came in. In that sense, the nature of the Old Gods was essentially unchanged as they remained parasites of Azeroth, but their presence was given context in the new framing story. Sadly, this had the unintended side effect of also stripping them of their mystique, which as Lovecraft-inspired beings they sort of needed to retain their cachet in the story.

[ReleaseDay]

I'm still hoping for a real old-god expansion with an underwater setting. Doubt that will happen now.

[Yarathir]

I'm not really familiar with DBZ to say - never really followed the series, though it's a claim I've heard more than once. In the original Classic lore, the Titans weren't planet-sized but more like giants of stone and metal, huge but not world-sized, and could fight in battles with regular forces more or less normally. In later lore this turned out more to be the Keepers than the Titans themselves, who actually *are* giants made of metal, as they were constructs created by the Titans. Whether this is considered a retcon or the result of an intentionally unreliable history is left more open.

When the Titans were "upgraded" to being colossal beings of planetary stature it stood to reason that their old foes, the Old Gods, couldn't similarly be upgraded without causing major narrative issues - as they were always bound to the history of Azeroth as more terrestrial enemies. This required the creation of a threat of similar scope who could stand opposite the Titans and explain their actions, and that's where the Void Lords came in. In that sense, the nature of the Old Gods was essentially unchanged as they remained parasites of Azeroth, but their presence was given context in the new framing story. Sadly, this had the unintended side effect of also stripping them of their mystique, which as Lovecraft-inspired beings they sort of needed to retain their cachet in the story.

You're right about that. The Titans were pretty vague but in general it was assumed that they were just big stone dudes and not planet-sized deities.

When the Pantheon was mentioned, I remember thinking that the Pantheon was made up of elite Titans. In the end, the Pantheon ended up being the only real known Titans. Well, barring Sargeras, who booted himself from it and Argus/Azeroth for other reasons. But there is no small Titan class lead by a more powerful Pantheon class like I used to think around TBC-times, so I agree with you there.

As for the DBZ-thing. It has a huge problem with ramping up the levels of power and then making up a bigger bad. The Old Gods were practically dealt with, so then there were Void Lords, which are a fairly recent concept.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm still hoping for a real old-god expansion with an underwater setting. Doubt that will happen now.

It's dead, Jim.

All you can hope for is that Void Lords are organic and similar to Old Gods in terms of appearance and thematic, and not just massive Void Lords.

[NorthernDragon]

Honestly my issue is that Old Gods stopped feeling like a threat after defeating so many so easily. It's difficult to feel threatened when you're introduced to a threat that you defeat within six months. Old Gods would've felt like a powerful force if we we're actually battling them throughout the entire expansion but unfortunately WoW is more Saturday Morning Cartoon

[ohwell]

That's the whole thing though. N'Zoth knows he is the weakest of all the old gods on Azeroth. What set N'Zoth apart was that he didn't focus on strength or such like the other old gods. He focused on mind games, setting things up, etc. Him "dying" was very likely his whole plan as he knows he is still weak and in order to make us forget about him / powerful or whatever he wants us to believe he is dead and everything is done. We don't know if he had any plans set up or if he even died and it wasn't a vision. Magni comments that the whispers still exist but not as bad which could mean he is alive just retreating to give a false sense of hope. We know that N'zoth isn't afraid to create any illusion that makes us think something, heck he even used Wrathion at the start of the raid.



Didn't they already say all the others are still alive and recovering and the only way to kill an old god was to destroy its heart? Which is why Y'sharrj was still poisoning Panderia due to his heart being there which was finally destroyed in our battle against Garrosh allowing everything to heal. That's why they said Icecrown is still affect due to Yogg-Saron still being alive, just barely but he is recovering. Same with C'thun.

No. They said their presence can and will haunt the lands because essentially their massive bodies are still there. Ysharrj's fell to the planet in Pandaria. I don't recall how they said defeating the actual Sha impacted it, but the old gods themselves have been confirmed dead dead dead by the devs multiple times. It was a combination of head canon and the way that some boss quotes actually matter and others don't that led to people thinking they're immortal(well they are in WoW sense as immortal just means you don't die to old age but you know what I mean).

The only reason the heart was kept was research apparently which I had forgotten.

Assuming everything in the comic with Medan is still canon as now they're saying some isn't and some is, they can be resurrected just like anything else, but since Chogall didn't succeed we don't know exactly how they would return as he tried to resurrect Cthun. That doesn't make them any different than other things in lore as many things have been resurrected from dragons to Avatar of Sargeras. Also typically resurrected typically implies being dead to begin with. Now if they were shown as being able to do it themselves without outside intervention there could be a point to be made, but the only case required immense power and someone doing it other than themselves.

In terms of the actual deaths Nzoth is the only one I can say was different in that we didn't somehow attack a "vital" "organ"(both in separate quotes because not sure of the vital part and whether they were literal organs) as we did vs Cthun and Yogg. Each of those had a phase where a strike team of sorts needed to hit some part of them that wasn't exposed. So even those would lead back to your theory as we did attack something on each of them that could be equated to their heart.

But yeah TLDR the devs have said constantly even after seeing things like Ulduar with void creatures that it's just because there are these massive bodies still under the land, but that they are in fact dead.

[Lucetia]

But yeah TLDR the devs have said constantly even after seeing things like Ulduar with void creatures that it's just because there are these massive bodies still under the land, but that they are in fact dead.

Really because a Blue quote someone linked above says otherwise. Do you have a source that contradicts this? Would be interested in seeing it.

[ohwell]

He is referring to how the Old Gods got to Azeroth in the first place. They were hurled into space by the void or somethin like that looking for world souls. Obviously everybody knows about Azeroth now so he does pose a very good question for a lore POV

If 4 Old Gods did so much damage to Azeroth already, why don't they just hurl like 100 more at once at Azeroth and be done with it?

They didn't hurl them at Azeroth nor were there only 4 that they hurled. That's why.

It was a blind chuck of many and 4 got lucky unless Sargeras really killed infested sleeping titans while if one fully succeeded already we'd probably know by now unless that's a later expansion.

Nothing has indicated the void lords know where anything is in Azeroth as there's been no indication that the OGs communicate back to the void itself or how much the void can actually see and where in the universe.

- - - Updated - - -

Really because a Blue quote someone linked above says otherwise. Do you have a source that contradicts this? Would be interested in seeing it.

First off that's not a blue quote. That's the drunken ramblings at a Blizzcon that isn't even quoted. Am I doubting he said it, no.

Secondly it doesn't say otherwise. It says what I said they said in other things that their bodies left an impact but then he did a but....who know what we can do!?!?! All that's doing is leaving him from getting tagged in the future if they change their mind.

[staplespencer]

Old Gods are void beings on the Archimonde/Kiljaedon power tier. The big bad of Legion was Sargeras. For the void it would be the Void Lords.

[Tyrannica]

Old Gods are void beings on the Archimonde/Kiljaedon power tier. The big bad of Legion was Sargeras. For the void it would be the Void Lords.

Don't think so.

Archimonde/Kiljaden and normal Titans not from the Pantheon are way under the old gods power.

Nothing, really nothing ingame tells you otherwise.

N'zoth was considered the weakest of them and yet, he alone, could decide the fate of the multiverse. His will alone or PSI/ESP abilities can change the reality.

All of this is even more true, without considering externial source materials like books. Ingame, we defeated Kj/Archimonde at their full power 2 times, ending them.

While we faced weakened old gods and just 1 of them at full power, as N'zoth got completely released from his prison, before we confronted him.

Yeah, unfortunately those 2 demon lieutnants of Sargeras are just lootbags not more powerful than a LK or Lei Shen and i consider this a very good thing. I want to face real demons, not just dranei sorcerors painted red with a world enlarger item.

I really hope we see some real demon lords of good top tier quality, the burning legion was a disappointment, full with weak demon chaff, and 3 titans at the top holding the legion together and radiating some raw power. I hope blizzard can do better next time they revisit demon lore.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

It would have been only a matter of time before WoW started to go interstellar. We couldn't just deal with Azeroth-based threats forever, and the Old Gods were specifically Azeroth-based threats.


Establishing a threat that still directly linked to the Old Gods but on a cosmic scale was the right move.

[Tyrannica]

Establishing a threat that still directly linked to the Old Gods but on a cosmic scale was the right move.

What is your information on that? There was a void assault in SL in the past, but where is that old god presence left, if there was one? i thought SL is merely justa bout the Jailer and Sylvanas and their servants? At least, blizz wants us to believe that for now.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

What is your information on that? There was a void assault in SL in the past, but where is that old god presence left, if there was one? i thought SL is merely justa bout the Jailer and Sylvanas and their servants? At least, blizz wants us to believe that for now.

The Void Lords who created the Old Gods. That's what I meant.


For clarification I was trying to say that it was the right move to create "bad guys" on a much larger scale (Void Lords and the Void) that is established as more-or-less the primary antagonistic force of the entire WoW universe, even if the Burning Legion as been much more in our faces as of late.