9.0 General Discussion

[Revamp Man]

He is corporations bane.... >.> <.< Not really





I don't know what they can do to fix the conduit system that is *so flawed according to youtubers/streamers* If they want it removed completely thats not happening and it'd be more likely they caved on covanents then removing conduits.




I heard way more people complain how it made them so necessary to have to be....good or something. The RNG part wasn't it and some people favor Legion over BFA. Look I dunno what to tell you. I just think we got the best situation(SL being delayed).

the game needed delayed
the devs just need to also not treat players like we hate them and its us vs them because we all just want the same thing....a good game

the impact of legendaries was compounded by the rng acquisition meaning if you got 4 on one toon and none were your BiS then you were screwed

the fix to the conduit system that streamers are talking about isnt removing it, though some are saying why not, it is actually just let us swap them whenever we want just like glyphs or talents but isntead they gave us a weekly CD then a charge system while some even say "the cahrge system is better but can we please get them to be at least spec based" and what did blizz do?? they nerfed them by removing a potency conduit.

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Is it against the rules to tell people who agonize over shit like this to get a fucking life? I swear it's not to be insulting, I truly think if you've fallen to that point, taking a big step away from WoW and re-evaluating your relationship with this game is urgently needed and you deserve to escape this miserable depressive hole.

The earth is such a big and beautiful place and the human experience is so rich and varied and marvelous and sometimes sad but tremendously moving all the time and complaining about balance in a 16 year old game with mutable choices abound feels like.. such a waste.

yet here you are on a forum for taht game complaining about players who are discussing it

[Hitei]

ok real example

Literally Illustrating my point:

*boat works exactly as above*
small handful of players: I WANT AN ENGINE, SAILS ARE SHIT. NO ONE CAN USE A BOAT WITH SAILS!! BOATING IS DEAD.
blizz: Jesus Christ, fine, We've added a small engine, are you happy?
small handful of players: HAH, I KNEW YOU WERE LYING, SAILS CAN'T MAKE A BOAT GO FORWARD!

You mistake caving in or compromise for validation.

Flying was removed. Lazy trashbags upset that they had to actually move around in the environment and go around enemies and obstacles bitched and moaned about how unfair it was that they had to play the game instead of AFKing between points on the map. They kept bitching and moaning until finally Blizzard got tired of hearing it and swapped to the pathfinder model so they'd shut up.

That doesn't mean those invalids were correct. Flying is still a trash system that exists for the sole purpose of literally avoiding playing the game. It means Blizzard abandoned a reasonable attempt at improving the game to compromise with idiots because it just wasn't worth the effort.

TF and Legiondaries were left in because despite 0.1% of the playerbase endlessly fucking whining about them, they placed somewhere between "fine" and "great" for the other 99.9% (across all levels) of players. And then eventually it became not worth the effort of dealing with 0.1%, so they changed/removed them. Devs make poor choices all the time, but these aren't those. You people just jump onto whatever the latest bandwagon "GOING TO KILL THE GAME!!!!" shit influencers happen to be currently shilling and keep parroting it until either changes or is left behind.

It's just the cancel culture model: Keep a small group shouting about something until a company relents and does what you want. It doesn't mean you were right, it means it became more cost effective to shut you up.

yet here you are on a forum for taht game complaining about players who are discussing it

The difference here is readily apparent. I don't like Kpop. I don't go to Kpop forums and whine about how Kpop is shit, and then get surprised when people are tired of dealing with me and keep asking why I'm spending so much time on a Kpop forum. Normal people don't like a game, and don't play it. They don't post obsessively about how much they don't like it or the devs for months/years on end.

[huth]

>There are dozens cases of developers not addressing good feedback
>Apparently there is direct proof of developers not caring about feedback
Blizzdrones everywhere: Thats not true!

I wonder, are they paid, or just have natural need to defend and justify bad stuff developers do.

So everybody either agrees with you or is a mindless blizzdrone?

Excuse me if i have my doubts about those claims of Blizzard being rude, given how the community tends to "argue".

[Makorus]

Theres a difference between listening to feedback and letting the players create the game.

And theres too much of the latter recently.

[TS26]

this is probably the prepatch im least hyped about.

Hard to feel hyped when i dont even know when expansion is coming out.

[Cherry123]

Battle with Turalyon and Alleria in Stormwind so awesome, alliance now has a strong leader. Not like Wussduin cast one "penis" spell that deals 0 damage

[Valysar]

LFG is not available if you're not lvl 50 ... So, how do alts (lvl 10-49) kill bosses from assaults on empty servers ...

[Lady Atia]

LFG is not available if you're not lvl 50 ... So, how do alts (lvl 10-49) kill bosses from assaults on empty servers ...

There are still empty servers after the merges?^^

[Valysar]

There are still empty servers after the merges?^^

Well, even on big servers. I waited 10min in front of a boss before seeing someone attacking him, even making announcements on the /1. I imagine everyone is eating at this time (my server is in the top 3 of french servers, so...)

[Eurhetemec]

I still don't understand this drama.

It's because it's bullshit but some people just love it because it's drama and it feeds into their biases.

Unlike almost everyone here, I suspect, I have participated in a private official forum with devs for an MMORPG (albeit a long time ago).

Some of the people were invited because they had good criticisms and seemed reasonable and analytical, some because they were prominent players or influential theorycrafters (which is incredibly different from being a good critic).

The latter two groups were, frankly, extremely temperamental. Some of them, if the devs didn't agree, would get very upset, and yeah I saw accusations that devs were being condescending and so on, and it was bullshit.

The reality is that when someone is wrong you can only tell them that so many ways. If you try to stay polite, eventually it can seem condescending because they're being rude and you're having to be all "that's nice dear". If you don't stay polite, you get called rude.

So these claims of people being "condescending and rude" sounds exactly like the way spurned players and theorycrafters reacted to dev posts in the MMORPG I did this with (not sure I can say which and too lazy to dig up documents before you ask, I daresay careful study of my posts could work it out).

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Is there anyone who is really surprised that the devs don't actually care about feedback?

It has been very clear for the past several expansions.

They obviously do listen to feedback, pretty constantly.

People believe that they don't because of confirmation bias. Every time Blizzard do listen to feedback you agree with it's immediately forgotten. Every time they don't listen to feedback you agree with, you write to into your book of grudges and remember it forever (you in the general sense). You even remember it after they fix it.

Everyone does this a bit, I'll give an example. But some people also note when they do listen, and don't immediately forget it. They seem to be in the minority on WoW forums though.

Anyway you say "for the past several expansions" which shows the confirmation bias. They've been listening to some stuff and ignoring other stuff since Vanilla. If anything they listen better now.

In Vanilla, for example, Tom Chilton brought in the initial form of the honor system, the legendary "honor grind", which meant that depending on what server you were on, the only way to get max honor rank was to take 2-6 weeks off work and play 12+ hours a day. And you had to arrange it with other players so no one else was trying it at the same time.

There were numerous other flaws too.

All of these flaws were spotted by players. One particularly reasonable player laid out every problem that would occur. Tom Chilton came to the forums and totally rubbished him and implied it was all bullshit Mystic Meg predictions (not in those words).

Obviously the poster was entirely correct and they redid the system later to fix the issues.

Then pretty much the same thing happened with the initial design of arenas in TBC.

So it's not new. But people act as if it is because they only remember when it annoyed them, but delude themselves into thinking they have a good overview of how much it happens.

And again, if anything, Blizzard listen far more now than they ever did before. In the "good old days" people go on about, whether that's Vanilla, Wrath, MoP, whenever, tons of good feedback was ignored. And some was listened to.

There's also the pipeline issue. People think Blizzard ignored feedback but in fact it takes the. X months to understand, act on, test and implement the results of the feedback.

I'm actually surprised so many people are so dumb re pipeline stuff, because surely anyone in a responsible position at work will have seen this sort of thing in their job. I guess a lot of loud WoW players are young or don't work though.

[Makabreska]

Is there anyone who is really surprised that the devs don't actually care about feedback?

It has been very clear for the past several expansions.

Yeeee, cuz SL beta showed us they don't care about it, right?

[Lahis]

Yeeee, cuz SL beta showed us they don't care about it, right?

Covenants and conduits are still ass-backwards, overtly complicated systems for systems' sake.

They have chosen their hill to die on for now. It will be several patches of fixing covenants instead of making new content for the game.

[Glordif]

Sorry to jump in, but it seemed easier than making a new thread. Has anyone else noticed as of pre-patch you no longer earn Echoes of Ny'alotha? I was hoping to buy an essence or two for my new character, but there doesn't seem to be a way to earn them. You can bet your ass I won't be getting them like I did for my main.

[Makabreska]

Covenants and conduits are still ass-backwards, overtly complicated systems for systems' sake.

They have chosen their hill to die on for now. It will be several patches of fixing covenants instead of making new content for the game.

"Let gear be gear", Torghast Torments, conduits not getting destroyed, multiple class changes with Shadow rework on top, multiple Nathria boss changes, SL postpone and many more. Everything due to feedback. So ye, they totally don't listen to it, because they didn't change enough core SL system, even when they explicitly said they will relax it if it won't work live. And ye, defo we wont get any new content cuz fixing, just like in BfA, eh?

[huth]

"Let gear be gear", Torghast Torments, conduits not getting destroyed, multiple class changes with Shadow rework on top, multiple Nathria boss changes, SL postpone and many more. Everything due to feedback. So ye, they totally don't listen to it, because they didn't change enough core SL system, even when they explicitly said they will relax it if it won't work live. And ye, defo we wont get any new content cuz fixing, just like in BfA, eh?

Nah, they're "not listening" because they aren't changing the poster's one pet peeve.

[Sondrelk]

The problem with bad feedback is one that is in a sense self-perpetuating as well.
Say Blizzard introduces something new, it gets criticism, said criticism snowballs out of control and what was once a reasonable argument has now devolved into the playerbase mindlessly parroting that said new thing is fundamentally broken or breaks the game in some way.

If you were a developer, would you listen to that feedback? Absolutely noone benefits from feedback that amounts to "X is bad because I said so/don't like it". This means that the developers might whether consciously or not group all feedback about this one thing into the same pile of useless feedback, instead moving on to a different subject.

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The debate is now meaningless on both sides, because neither is willing to back down on what they want for the game, and very little constructive feedback comes through, perpetuating the cycle.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Battle with Turalyon and Alleria in Stormwind so awesome, alliance now has a strong leader. Not like Wussduin cast one "penis" spell that deals 0 damage

This is very childish dude....

[Lahis]

And ye, defo we wont get any new content cuz fixing, just like in BfA, eh?

Precisely like BFA. The Patch cycle was delayed by months, and content itself was recycled and lackluster, because they wasted so much dev time fixing Azerite with new Systems on top of Systems on top of Systems.

[Izalla]

This is very childish dude....

Literally everything he posts is him whining about Anduin and calling him names. Every time I see a post/thread insulting Anduin I assume it's made by him and I'm hardly ever wrong.

[Revamp Man]

The problem with bad feedback is one that is in a sense self-perpetuating as well.
Say Blizzard introduces something new, it gets criticism, said criticism snowballs out of control and what was once a reasonable argument has now devolved into the playerbase mindlessly parroting that said new thing is fundamentally broken or breaks the game in some way.

If you were a developer, would you listen to that feedback? Absolutely noone benefits from feedback that amounts to "X is bad because I said so/don't like it". This means that the developers might whether consciously or not group all feedback about this one thing into the same pile of useless feedback, instead moving on to a different subject.

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The debate is now meaningless on both sides, because neither is willing to back down on what they want for the game, and very little constructive feedback comes through, perpetuating the cycle.

based on everything being linked on twitter i can only say its better now than it was with celestalon apparently
also the devs favored feedback covering their main class and accused the theorycrafters of making up things like the 2 minute S2M
legion
devs:heres shaman changes
theorycrafters: shaman is in a bad spot
devs: you dont know what you are talking about
*legion launches*
players: shamans are in a bad spot
devs: we agree and will work on it
8.3
devs:see we fixed shamans

celestalon: hey brewmasters if you wanna mitigate damage just roll backwards (i had to include that one)

then there was a discussion about some talent where players said it was a bad talent and the dev just said "dont use it then" and they called the players in the forums "the peanut gallery" and accused the players of faking math


im not very hopeful about how some classes will work in shadowlands but i hope the devs that understand where players come from are the majority