SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Verdugo]

Super Dickmann and I cross swords all the time, but we tend to do it amicably and even occasionally come away with a new perspective, if nothing else.

Weird that this is your take, to me, he appears to be finaly getting tired from the constant arguing with you.

[Aucald]

Weird that this is your take, to me, he appears to be finaly getting tired from the constant arguing with you.

Could've fooled me. Easy enough to just not respond if so, though. I'm amenable to being essentially ignored if that's preferable.

[Feanoro]

Which aren't insults in any way shape or form.

An attack on an argument is not an attack on a person, neither is countering an argument with a different or better-reasoned argument.

Hey look, Ma, I'm a prophet!

Let me stop you before you try your usual tactic of trying to conflate ad hominem and insults. Even the most cursory search will point out they're not the same, so allow me to spare you the trouble of lecturing again about people needing thick skin.

You just did EXACTLY what I said here, trying to pretend I'm accusing you of insults by conflating ad hominem and insults. I even pointed out they're not the same thing. I spelled out explicitly that you're using ad hominem, not insults, so trying to pretend that I said the exact opposite is flat out dishonesty.

Every one of those quotes has you attacking the poster, or the presentation of their argument, and not the substance of the argument. You use ad hominems. Period. The end.

Also gotta love you responding to the charge of attempting to isolate posters and so diminish their points by... Trying to isolate me as "the only one taking it personally". Good Lord, man, if you're going to deny a behavior, you don't use that very behavior as part of the denial.

- - - Updated - - -

Weird that this is your take, to me, he appears to be finaly getting tired from the constant arguing with you.

At some point, you realize you're talking to a wall, yes. I think the last stunning display of dishonesty from him does it for me.

[tommyhil622]

Perhaps switching gears here.

After playing more of the beta i feel like the Maw's threat feels a little subpar with what was initially presented.

As the "maw walker" you are constantly in and out of the maw throughout the quest-line, and even to the extent that members of Revendreth are able to use the champion as a conduit to leave the maw.

Now, seeing as the Jailer is currently "Trapped in the maw" wouldn't it stand to reason to deploy every resource possible (since he seems to have so many under his control or willing to help) and have them idk catch the "maw walker".

Or at the very least guard the waystone so we can't just waltz in anytime we like. I get there's a play mechanic at work here but idk just seems to counter the "inescapable maw" if we are constantly going and leaving that place with little to no consequence?

I think it would make more sense to make it a little harder for us to go into and out of the maw to convey that "inescapable maw" they keep talking about.

[Aucald]

Hey look, Ma, I'm a prophet!

Or you saw the very obvious fallacies you were employing and predicted rightfully I would address them, as you do.

You just did EXACTLY what I said here, trying to pretend I'm accusing you of insults by conflating ad hominem and insults. I even pointed out they're not the same thing. I spelled out explicitly that you're using ad hominem, not insults, so trying to pretend that I said the exact opposite is flat out dishonesty.

I'm explicitly not using ad hominem, because that would involve attacking with arguer with the intent to diminish their credibility or standing, when I'm only attacking and/or countering arguments. You're simply in error here, and unwilling to address it yourself.

Every one of those quotes has you attacking the poster, or the presentation of their argument, and not the substance of the argument. You use ad hominems. Period. The end.

Except I'm very obviously not. Just repeating something doesn't make it true. Even if you get offended by a failure to understand or properly parse what I'm saying, that still has no bearing on me. If you say "it's raining" when it's a clear and sunny day outside, and I say that you're wrong, and you continue to say it to the point that I say you're not making sense or being at all coherent, that's still not on attack on you. Even if I said "I think you may be delusional" it still wouldn't be an attack, because if you sincerely thought that despite the evidence of its falsity then that would actually be a delusion.

Also gotta love you responding to the charge of attempting to isolate posters and so diminish their points by... Trying to isolate me as "the only one taking it personally". Good Lord, man, if you're going to deny a behavior, you don't use that very behavior as part of the denial.

Well I am speaking to you personally here, so there's no real "isolating posters" or any other such nonsense. I am quite literally addressing your specific behavior here, not the topic of the argument we were otherwise having. I'm not sure if you're confused or being willfully obtuse here, to be honest.

For the sake of the thread's continued stability, if you want to keep arguing this personal stuff let's move it to PM's if you like - it's kind of distracting and a bit derailing at this point.

[Feanoro]

Perhaps switching gears here.

After playing more of the beta i feel like the Maw's threat feels a little subpar with what was initially presented.

As the "maw walker" you are constantly in and out of the maw throughout the quest-line, and even to the extent that members of Revendreth are able to use the champion as a conduit to leave the maw.

Now, seeing as the Jailer is currently "Trapped in the maw" wouldn't it stand to reason to deploy every resource possible (since he seems to have so many under his control or willing to help) and have them idk catch the "maw walker".

Or at the very least guard the waystone so we can't just waltz in anytime we like. I get there's a play mechanic at work here but idk just seems to counter the "inescapable maw" if we are constantly going and leaving that place with little to no consequence?

I think it would make more sense to make it a little harder for us to go into and out of the maw to convey that "inescapable maw" they keep talking about.

They did something similar with Naz'jatar, and the excuse used was the Heart of Azeroth had the power to break through the wards or some such. Pretty flimsy, and I'd expect similar lampshade hanging here. Maybe something about us being alive, or the anima we gather?


@Aucald
Ad hominem means "directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining". It has exactly nothing to do with intent, because as any lawyer will tell you, you cannot prove intent. Probably why you're trying to pretend it requires intent, I suppose.

I provided quoted proof of ad hominem. You're trying desperately to pretend I claimed you meant insults or gave offense. I made no such claim and went to pains to be clear that no so point was being made. You persist in this offense/insults angle, and even use ad hominem trying to claim I don't understand you. You're dishonest in doing so. I've stated my case, and you refuse to accept responsibility for your words. There's nothing more to be said.

[Verdugo]

Perhaps switching gears here.

After playing more of the beta i feel like the Maw's threat feels a little subpar with what was initially presented.

As the "maw walker" you are constantly in and out of the maw throughout the quest-line, and even to the extent that members of Revendreth are able to use the champion as a conduit to leave the maw.

Now, seeing as the Jailer is currently "Trapped in the maw" wouldn't it stand to reason to deploy every resource possible (since he seems to have so many under his control or willing to help) and have them idk catch the "maw walker".

Or at the very least guard the waystone so we can't just waltz in anytime we like. I get there's a play mechanic at work here but idk just seems to counter the "inescapable maw" if we are constantly going and leaving that place with little to no consequence?

I think it would make more sense to make it a little harder for us to go into and out of the maw to convey that "inescapable maw" they keep talking about.

Its obvious since Blizzcon, where Ion was talking about how "no one escapes the Maw!", them immediatly backtracks to ensure the braindead in the front rows understand that this wont happen to them because they are speshul.

[Aucald]

Perhaps switching gears here.

After playing more of the beta i feel like the Maw's threat feels a little subpar with what was initially presented.

As the "maw walker" you are constantly in and out of the maw throughout the quest-line, and even to the extent that members of Revendreth are able to use the champion as a conduit to leave the maw.

Now, seeing as the Jailer is currently "Trapped in the maw" wouldn't it stand to reason to deploy every resource possible (since he seems to have so many under his control or willing to help) and have them idk catch the "maw walker".

Or at the very least guard the waystone so we can't just waltz in anytime we like. I get there's a play mechanic at work here but idk just seems to counter the "inescapable maw" if we are constantly going and leaving that place with little to no consequence?

I think it would make more sense to make it a little harder for us to go into and out of the maw to convey that "inescapable maw" they keep talking about.

The Maw's threat is a bit subpar, I agree. I think a lot of that does revolve around the separation of story and gameplay, as it were; as we need a mechanism to be able to go to and from the Maw - but the waystone seems a bit ostentatious in that regard. I believe the intent, at least based on supporting evidence, is that the the residents of the Maw treat this relic of the First Ones with a kind of superstitious dread, they avoid it and thus it's a relatively safe place to zip in and out of the Maw more or less undetected. Unless you kick up a ruckus (e.g. start killing the Jailer's minions) you don't really get noticed.

I do agree that the Jailer should probably address the newfound and glaring hole in his security, though. It'd be nice if something about the waystone warded away or somehow actively shrouded its use from being seen, or failing that if the Maw Walker occasionally jumped into the Maw to find themselves met by an elite kill-squad right at the waystone. Something to at least amp up the sense of dread and suspense the Maw is supposed to convey.

[bagina]

Perhaps switching gears here.

After playing more of the beta i feel like the Maw's threat feels a little subpar with what was initially presented.

As the "maw walker" you are constantly in and out of the maw throughout the quest-line, and even to the extent that members of Revendreth are able to use the champion as a conduit to leave the maw.

Now, seeing as the Jailer is currently "Trapped in the maw" wouldn't it stand to reason to deploy every resource possible (since he seems to have so many under his control or willing to help) and have them idk catch the "maw walker".

Or at the very least guard the waystone so we can't just waltz in anytime we like. I get there's a play mechanic at work here but idk just seems to counter the "inescapable maw" if we are constantly going and leaving that place with little to no consequence?

I think it would make more sense to make it a little harder for us to go into and out of the maw to convey that "inescapable maw" they keep talking about.

I agree. I'm really curious about those waystones and if they'll become relevant later this exp or remain just convenient means of transport. They're related to the First Ones and I wonder if we'll be finding out more about them any time soon.

[tommyhil622]

They did something similar with Naz'jatar, and the excuse used was the Heart of Azeroth had the power to break through the wards or some such. Pretty flimsy, and I'd expect similar lampshade hanging here. Maybe something about us being alive, or the anima we gather?

Its obvious since Blizzcon, where Ion was talking about how "no one escapes the Maw!", them immediatly backtracks to ensure the braindead in the front rows understand that this wont happen to them because they are speshul.

Yea I know it's meant to be hyperbole and to set the stage not that we as a player going to actually be stuck in the maw.

The Maw's threat is a bit subpar, I agree. I think a lot of that does revolve around the separation of story and gameplay, as it were; as we need a mechanism to be able to go to and from the Maw - but the waystone seems a bit ostentatious in that regard. I believe the intent, at least based on supporting evidence, is that the the residents of the Maw treat this relic of the First Ones with a kind of superstitious dread, they avoid it and thus it's a relatively safe place to zip in and out of the Maw more or less undetected. Unless you kick up a ruckus (e.g. start killing the Jailer's minions) you don't really get noticed.

I do agree that the Jailer should probably address the newfound and glaring hole in his security, though. It'd be nice if something about the waystone warded away or somehow actively shrouded its use from being seen, or failing that if the Maw Walker occasionally jumped into the Maw to find themselves met by an elite kill-squad right at the waystone. Something to at least amp up the sense of dread and suspense the Maw is supposed to convey.

Exactly. Anything they can do to make it feel more threatening would be key. Hell at times i feel like the Fel-reaver in hellfire penn. posed a greater sense of threat than the current state of the maw. And you know overall i get it we are the hero/champion/maw walker and given the expac we have to be able to to get there and go but anything they can do convey some sort of difficulty would go a long way. I definitely like the idea of mobs/elites or even bosses in close proximity of the waystone. It's what made me think of the fel reveaver idea. There' still time to go, so perhaps they'll make some changes down the line.

I agree. I'm really curious about those waystones and if they'll become relevant later this exp or remain just convenient means of transport. They're related to the First Ones and I wonder if we'll be finding out more about them any time soon.

Yea I don't recall who said it or when but they mentioned something about more areas to explore in the shadowlands that have been revealed thus far. So I think that's a cool idea perhaps there are other waystones out there to take us to other places in the shadowlands. Would love for them to do something like that for sure. Also if they could stop making the maw walker into some sort of uber that would be great lol.

[Aucald]

Exactly. Anything they can do to make it feel more threatening would be key. Hell at times i feel like the Fel-reaver in hellfire penn. posed a greater sense of threat than the current state of the maw. And you know overall i get it we are the hero/champion/maw walker and given the expac we have to be able to to get there and go but anything they can do convey some sort of difficulty would go a long way. I definitely like the idea of mobs/elites or even bosses in close proximity of the waystone. It's what made me think of the fel reveaver idea. There' still time to go, so perhaps they'll make some changes down the line.

It's kind of sad, because the general ambience and music (or lack thereof) in the Maw is actually well done - and coupled with the Eye of the Jailer mechanic it actually can feel a bit suspenseful (though I suppose that's a short-term thing that'll fade with time and growing power). The Eye of the Jailer mechanic is, I think, meant to convey that sense of an impending assault like with a Fel Reaver or Storm Giant back in WotLK, albeit a bit more directed and personal. But I think you could go a step further and have some variance there, such as free-roaming dangers that could legitimately surprise you. Another idea I've heard floated is that the Jailer could randomly fix his gaze on a randomly selected player in the Maw at random times, kind of like the Eye of Sauron, basically taking them from 0 to 5 in terms of threat level and forcing them to retreat before they're slaughtered. Might even make it an objective type of thing, flagging this person on the map so people could come to their aid (perhaps even for rewards like additional Stygia or what have you). Give the Maw some more dynamism, additional threat, and more interactivity to boot.

[tommyhil622]

It's kind of sad, because the general ambience and music (or lack thereof) in the Maw is actually well done - and coupled with the Eye of the Jailer mechanic it actually can feel a bit suspenseful (though I suppose that's a short-term thing that'll fade with time and growing power). The Eye of the Jailer mechanic is, I think, meant to convey that sense of an impending assault like with a Fel Reaver or Storm Giant back in WotLK, albeit a bit more directed and personal. But I think you could go a step further and have some variance there, such as free-roaming dangers that could legitimately surprise you.

Yea I think overall they have a good setting in place. I do like the eye of the jailer mechanic, they just have to build upon it a bit more.

Another idea I've heard floated is that the Jailer could randomly fix his gaze on a randomly selected player in the Maw at random times, kind of like the Eye of Sauron, basically taking them from 0 to 5 in terms of threat level and forcing them to retreat before they're slaughtered. Might even make it an objective type of thing, flagging this person on the map so people could come to their aid (perhaps even for rewards like additional Stygia or what have you). Give the Maw some more dynamism, additional threat, and more interactivity to boot.

I love this idea. Where you actions are so egregious that the jailer is devoting some more attention to you and before being overwhelmed you try to get assistance from others. And they could even provide a reward mechanic via this meanwhile communicating how dangerous it is to wander in the maw.

Random note, I do wonder however, what exactly is the Jailer doing besides hunting random intruders and torturing his prisoners. While the sky is opened up, is there something stopping him from just flying out of there? I recall a snippet of dialogue where i think Thrall says something like he felt the Jailer was testing them? I wonder if he's trying to just gain information or he's trying to somehow convert them? And if true, was there some of this tactics used on Slyvannas?

[Aucald]

Random note, I do wonder however, what exactly is the Jailer doing besides hunting random intruders and torturing his prisoners. While the sky is opened up, is there something stopping him from just flying out of there? I recall a snippet of dialogue where i think Thrall says something like he felt the Jailer was testing them? I wonder if he's trying to just gain information or he's trying to somehow convert them? And if true, was there some of this tactics used on Slyvannas?

Building an army, it would seem - a lot of the NPC's talk about how he's made an army whose size rivals the Legion at its prime. I think the idea there is this is kind of a Lich King redux, so to speak; with the Jailer using the influx of anima to speed-build his forces preparatory for an invasion of the physical universe from the Shadowlands. His capture of the Horde and Alliance leaders seems like it has the same purpose as Arthas bringing the Ashen Verdict forces to Icecrown in attempt to convert them one and all into powerful generals for the Scourge and in so doing finally put an end to all resistance to his plans. I think the Jailer wants to do the same for here, except of instead of stealing away the Champion he's opted to steal the faction leaders and pervert them to his cause.

As for Sylvanas, it's difficult to say. Perhaps whatever it is the Jailer told or showed Sylvanas that seemingly earned her allegiance he can do to the other leaders, aligning their causes with his or some such.

[Darknessvamp]

The Maw's threat is a bit subpar, I agree. I think a lot of that does revolve around the separation of story and gameplay, as it were; as we need a mechanism to be able to go to and from the Maw - but the waystone seems a bit ostentatious in that regard. I believe the intent, at least based on supporting evidence, is that the the residents of the Maw treat this relic of the First Ones with a kind of superstitious dread, they avoid it and thus it's a relatively safe place to zip in and out of the Maw more or less undetected. Unless you kick up a ruckus (e.g. start killing the Jailer's minions) you don't really get noticed.

I do agree that the Jailer should probably address the newfound and glaring hole in his security, though. It'd be nice if something about the waystone warded away or somehow actively shrouded its use from being seen, or failing that if the Maw Walker occasionally jumped into the Maw to find themselves met by an elite kill-squad right at the waystone. Something to at least amp up the sense of dread and suspense the Maw is supposed to convey.

Addressing the bolded parts in particular as that would be kinda strange considering all the land in the Maw has been established as stuff the Jailer has been deliberately stealing from the other realms of the Shadowlands for awhile now. You'd think he'd know about what was on that land he was stealing from considering the story places him outside the Maw prior to his eventual incarceration and assumption of the role of Jailer and if he did not yet still found issue with things present on that land either for himself or his forces, you'd assume he'd keep it as separate as possible a landmass from the rest of the Maw.

[Aucald]

Addressing the bolded parts in particular as that would be kinda strange considering all the land in the Maw has been established as stuff the Jailer has been deliberately stealing from the other realms of the Shadowlands for awhile now. You'd think he'd know about what was on that land he was stealing from considering the story places him outside the Maw prior to his eventual incarceration and assumption of the role of Jailer and if he did not yet still found issue with things present on that land either for himself or his forces, you'd assume he'd keep it as separate as possible a landmass from the rest of the Maw.

I don't really recall hearing or seeing anything about the Jailer stealing land from the other realms of the Shadowlands? I know he's stolen souls previously, but not landmasses themselves. Do you have a source for this, as it would certainly be new information for me.

Update: Think I just found what you're referring on WoWPedia, and I wasn't aware of that previously. I'd assume that the the waystone is something he likely stole in ages past, then; perhaps a fumbling first attempt at freeing himself from the realm.

[BaumanKing]

Is it true that Kael'thas has special gossip with a blood elf player, but he doesn't react to a void elf at all? Kinda weird, considering that there were blood elves who studied the void under his orders in Outland.

[Varodoc]

Is it true that Kael'thas has special gossip with a blood elf player, but he doesn't react to a void elf at all? Kinda weird, considering that there were blood elves who studied the void under his orders in Outland.

Really? Then that's very disappointing. I think Kael'thas would admire the tenacity and courage of Umbric. Discovering new sources of magic and bending said magic to protect Quel'thalas was definitely part of Kael'thas' philosophy.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

What other player interactions are there? I know Vashj says something if you killed her on your character.

[tommyhil622]

Building an army, it would seem - a lot of the NPC's talk about how he's made an army whose size rivals the Legion at its prime. I think the idea there is this is kind of a Lich King redux, so to speak; with the Jailer using the influx of anima to speed-build his forces preparatory for an invasion of the physical universe from the Shadowlands. His capture of the Horde and Alliance leaders seems like it has the same purpose as Arthas bringing the Ashen Verdict forces to Icecrown in attempt to convert them one and all into powerful generals for the Scourge and in so doing finally put an end to all resistance to his plans. I think the Jailer wants to do the same for here, except of instead of stealing away the Champion he's opted to steal the faction leaders and pervert them to his cause.

As for Sylvanas, it's difficult to say. Perhaps whatever it is the Jailer told or showed Sylvanas that seemingly earned her allegiance he can do to the other leaders, aligning their causes with his or some such.

Yea thats true he's building out his army. But i also forgot that during the latter half we are told that Denatharius is funneling all the anima out of the shadowlands which in term weakens the bonds that keep him in the maw. So i guess while that keeps going he's working on his forces and at least lore wise continues to try to weaken each of the convenants from within.

Just seems like theres more to his improssionment than previously thought. Seems like theres a magical anchor stopping him from escaping. I know the Winter Queen mentions it how great amount of anima was used to keep the Jailer in the maw. And in Revendreth they mention that if they don't stop the constant flow of anima into the maw that it will allow the jailer to escape.

Funny enough this reminds me of Tron Legacy where Clu is building an army to invade the real world. Several parralels there with this current story.

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What other player interactions are there? I know Vashj says something if you killed her on your character.

Vashj mentioned about her dying in the dungeon in outland but not sure if thats a unique blurb. She notes that we are from azeroth as well.

In Bastion they scan your "soul" and they show memories of when you fought in deanor and some of the faction conflict etc.

[Aucald]

Yea thats true he's building out his army. But i also forgot that during the latter half we are told that Denatharius is funneling all the anima out of the shadowlands which in term weakens the bonds that keep him in the maw. So i guess while that keeps going he's working on his forces and at least lore wise continues to try to weaken each of the convenants from within.

Just seems like theres more to his improssionment than previously thought. Seems like theres a magical anchor stopping him from escaping. I know the Winter Queen mentions it how great amount of anima was used to keep the Jailer in the maw. And in Revendreth they mention that if they don't stop the constant flow of anima into the maw that it will allow the jailer to escape.

Funny enough this reminds me of Tron Legacy where Clu is building an army to invade the real world. Several parralels there with this current story.

Well Denathrius doesn't actually send the Jailer the stored anima of Revendreth (something he's been doing for apparently a long, long time now) until you do the Revendreth leveling quests in the zone. Finishing the Revendreth storyline actually changes the game world around Oribos, and you can see a huge massing of black/red anima that Denathrius dumps into the Maw swirling down into its black/gray portal at Oribos. From the Beta:



According to the Primus' released voice lines it seems that the Jailer, then referred to as Zovaal, was a peer the Eternal Ones like himself, the Winter Queen, and the other lords of the Covenants. According to the Primus the anima was spent forming "chains" to keep the Jailer imprisoned, and these chains apparently still do that even though he's somehow managed to pervert or other manipulate them into being able to ensnare others as well. The anima flowing into the Jailer's domain seems to strengthen him, and we're approaching a tipping point where the Jailer will eventually be able to break said chains and leave the Maw entirely (an event that is purported to herald cosmic disaster).

I assume that the Jailer/Zovaal wants vengeance on the other Eternal Ones in addition to whatever plot got him banished to the Maw to begin with. This has something to do with the mysterious and as-yet unknown Sepulcher that the Primus mentions, and also heavily involves the Arbiter.