What's Happening in New Zealand?

[Milchshake]

Is New Zealand the leftist ideal? Their Labor Party actually wins elections. Successfully contained Covid. Rejected dumdum populism.

Labour’s historic win delivered Ardern a second term while voters punished politicians who embraced populism




Jacinda Ardern, New Zealand’s Labour prime minister who was returned to power for a second term with a commanding majority, has often been hailed internationally as a foil to global surges in right-wing movements and the rise of strongmen such as Donald Trump and Brazil’s leader, Jair Bolsonaro.

But the historic victory of Ardern’s centre-left party on polling day – its best result in five decades, winning 64 of parliament’s 120 seats – was not the only measure by which New Zealand bucked global trends in its vote. The public also rejected some political hopefuls’ rallying cries to populism, conspiracy theories and scepticism about Covid-19.

The lack of traction gained by fringe or populist movements was due to the majority of New Zealanders’ long-term contentment with the direction the country was headed – which had persisted for more than 20 years, through both centre-right and centre-left governments, and prevented populist sentiment from taking root, analysts said.

TLDR;
“A huge reason that our politics is not so extremely polarised and so far out there is because we no longer have Murdoch-owned press in New Zealand, and it’s never taken a foothold,”

Grats to Jacinda Ardern
I'm thinking if other leftists want to be successful, should model themselves after her instead of Sanders or Corbyn.

[DingDongKing]

More people attain tertiary education. They're better informed and less susceptible to hysteria, fear and regressive policies.

[Felya]

Murdoch owned press... nice...



This is infuriating:

“Brexit was an anti-establishment movement and Peters is the deputy prime minister,” he said.

Stephen Mills, the head of the polling firm UMR, said Peters’s embrace of populism had been the least of his problems.

“It seemed to be a completely incompetent campaign,” he said.

In US, we have the president running as anti establishment and it seems to work... depressing...

[JohnBrown1917]

As great as it is For NZ.. A leftist ideal? The most tame of centre-leftism? what a fucking joke.

[PC2]

Is New Zealand the leftist ideal?

No because New Zealand's economy is based on the private means of production(AKA capitalism). I suppose you could say it's for pragmatic leftists but it's certainly not for left wing idealists.

[Acidbaron]

No because New Zealand's economy is based on the private means of production(AKA capitalism). I suppose you could say it's for pragmatic leftists but it's certainly not for left wing idealists.

This does not conflict with leftist ideals, so not sure what you are on about unless you are only capable of thinking in extremes. Capitalism can and does perfectly exist in social democracies ruled by a left majority, than again you are American presumably as you never know on these forums so your lack of understanding of how politics work in less polarized landscapes and more modernized democracies that don't use FPTP is a given.

The main difference in nations like New Zealand between left and right can be found in the level of taxation and regulation of companies and a difference in how to invest in your industry and people but there is a lot more common ground than one would think, mostly because in said systems compromises are needed to have a stable and strong government.


As for the OP, i believe her handling of the corona crisis has had a far greater impact than anything else when it comes to re-election. The guardian is merely trying to push their agenda as a central left to left newspaper. That's the reason they even bring up the US and Brazil in the first place i presume, to create a distorted and in my opinion even dishonest view of these events.

[JohnBrown1917]

This does not conflict with leftist ideals, so not sure what you are on about unless you are only capable of thinking in extremes. Capitalism can and does perfectly exist in social democracies ruled by a left majority, than again you are American presumably as you never know on these forums so your lack of understanding of how politics work in less polarized landscapes and more modernized democracies that don't use FPTP is a given.

The main difference in nations like New Zealand between left and right can be found in the level of taxation and regulation of companies and a difference in how to invest in your industry and people but there is a lot more common ground than one would think, mostly because in said systems compromises are needed to have a stable and strong government.


As for the OP, i believe her handling of the corona crisis has had a far greater impact than anything else when it comes to re-election. The guardian is merely trying to push their agenda as a central left to left newspaper. That's the reason they even bring up the US and Brazil in the first place i presume, to create a distorted and in my opinion even dishonest view of these events.

Opposing capitalism is an extreme now?

[Acidbaron]

Opposing capitalism is an extreme now?

Considering it's the best working economic model, not perfect but the best we got and there being no viable alternative. Yes taking that stance turns makes you a fairly extremist in your line of thought.

If you refuse to accept this, that is completely within your right from my understanding people who do go down that path generally misunderstand what these models actually are, so a fairly pointless discussion to be had

And would completely derail the topic at hand.

[Edge-]

Murdoch owned press... nice...

God I want her to be the interviewer for every politician over here. Saw this yesterday and it's delightful.

[PC2]

Capitalism can and does perfectly exist in social democracies ruled by a left majority

I agree because 'social democracies' are based on the private means of production(capitalism) and not based on the social means of production. If putting a nice sounding word on something makes people feel better then I support it.

[Milchshake]

As for the OP, i believe her handling of the corona crisis has had a far greater impact than anything else when it comes to re-election. The guardian is merely trying to push their agenda as a central left to left newspaper. That's the reason they even bring up the US and Brazil in the first place i presume, to create a distorted and in my opinion even dishonest view of these events.

Ya that was the second shocking thing. The first, learning that Murdoch had no footprint in NZ. Second, seeing the Guardian boost Jacinda. After seeing them stan hard for Bernie and Corbyn for the past few years. Maybe they want to glob onto a winner.

Even with the win, i'm curious about Arden's approach to further expanding their coalition. It's a refreshing break from Leftists that are consumed with "Burning it all down" all the time.

Then again, my ideal Leftism is a robust social safety net, with the freedom to choose work I like, and own some stuff.

[JohnBrown1917]

Considering it's the best working economic model, not perfect but the best we got and there being no viable alternative. Yes taking that stance turns makes you a fairly extremist in your line of thought.

If you refuse to accept this, that is completely within your right from my understanding people who do go down that path generally misunderstand what these models actually are, so a fairly pointless discussion to be had

And would completely derail the topic at hand.

Best working model if you're rich* The 7 million who starve each year, or those living in extreme poverty or even just standard poverty would disagree.
Or you know, how just a few people own more than the other half on this planet. But hey, it does work for them.


And just as a sidenote, Most european countries never had, or currently do not have, a majority soc dem government.

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Ya that was the second shocking thing. The first, learning that Murdoch had no footprint in NZ. Second, seeing the Guardian boost Jacinda. After seeing them stan hard for Bernie and Corbyn for the past few years. Maybe they want to glob onto a winner.

Even with the win, i'm curious about Arden's approach to further expanding their coalition. It's a refreshing break from Leftists that are consumed with "Burning it all down" all the time.

Then again, my ideal Leftism is a robust social safety net, with the freedom to choose work I like, and own some stuff.

Right-wingers like you talking about ideal leftism is a joke.. ofcourse its something that will not actually harm the super rich.

[PC2]

And just as a sidenote, Most european countries never had, or currently do not have, a majority soc dem government.

Okay but what is the objective criteria that distinguishes a soc dem government from a non-soc dem government? So far nobody has been able to give me a criteria for social democracy other than "that's the label the majority of them use".

[Endus]

Considering it's the best working economic model, not perfect but the best we got and there being no viable alternative. Yes taking that stance turns makes you a fairly extremist in your line of thought.

If you refuse to accept this, that is completely within your right from my understanding people who do go down that path generally misunderstand what these models actually are, so a fairly pointless discussion to be had

And would completely derail the topic at hand.

It's not really justifiable to say it's "the best economic model". The USSR's communist economy produced far greater productivity per capita and allowed for significantly greater economic development relative to the West, during the Cold War. It collapsed internally for other reasons, certainly, but not because the economic principles failed; it was more about corruption and mismanagement from the top.

And it's not like capitalism has somehow demonstrated that it's failure-proof. It clearly isn't. Particularly as pretty much all the West realizes that capitalism itself is ruinous, which is why they've all moved to some form of mixed economy, attempting to stave off the inevitable collapses that capitalist systems produce.

There are "viable alternatives", but the capitalists have sold you a fiction to convince you otherwise.

Hell, a big chunk of the problem is that people seemingly don't understand what "capitalism" even means, any more. Such as describing any developed nation as having a purely capitalist economy, in 2020.

[DingDongKing]

A lot of the posturing in this thread is unnecessary. Here's the basics.

Q: What's happening in New Zealand?
A: People aren't behaving like morons.

[Acidbaron]

Ya that was the second shocking thing. The first, learning that Murdoch had no footprint in NZ. Second, seeing the Guardian boost Jacinda. After seeing them stan hard for Bernie and Corbyn for the past few years. Maybe they want to glob onto a winner.

Even with the win, i'm curious about Arden's approach to further expanding their coalition. It's a refreshing break from Leftists that are consumed with "Burning it all down" all the time.

Then again, my ideal Leftism is a robust social safety net, with the freedom to choose work I like, and own some stuff.

I think that view speaking of the bolded part might be a more an American perception? The left on this side of ocean has taking quite a few large hits over the last decade and is now sharing their political ideology with quite a lot more parties.

You ideal leftism as you define it would make you feel at home at quite a lot of parties here, outside of the far right and far left party i think out of the 11 (?), 9 in Belgium on a federal level at least would consider that "common sense".

It is good that such newspapers don't gain a foothold, but i have far greater concerns of the digital "press or news" than the written one these days, social media algorithms are a plague.

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It's not really justifiable to say it's "the best economic model". The USSR's communist economy produced far greater productivity per capita and allowed for significantly greater economic development relative to the West, during the Cold War. It collapsed internally for other reasons, certainly, but not because the economic principles failed; it was more about corruption and mismanagement from the top.

And it's not like capitalism has somehow demonstrated that it's failure-proof. It clearly isn't. Particularly as pretty much all the West realizes that capitalism itself is ruinous, which is why they've all moved to some form of mixed economy, attempting to stave off the inevitable collapses that capitalist systems produce.

There are "viable alternatives", but the capitalists have sold you a fiction to convince you otherwise.

Hell, a big chunk of the problem is that people seemingly don't understand what "capitalism" even means, any more. Such as describing any developed nation as having a purely capitalist economy, in 2020.

I respect your opinion but i disagree, i find a capitalist model with enough regulation and involvement from the government to protect it's citizen rights to be the best model we have so far.

I also disagree that the government is a great producer such as seen in the USSR.

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I agree because 'social democracies' are based on the private means of production(capitalism) and not based on the social means of production. If putting a nice sounding word on something makes people feel better then I support it.

I find you are now just creating definitions to suit your opinion or at the least being intentionally vague to start up a discussion over what social democracies actually are.

Just for the record i have no interest in debating either that or what the hell "social means of production" is suppose to be in your opinion.

[PC2]

I find you are now just creating definitions to suit your opinion or at the least being intentionally vague to start up a discussion over what social democracies actually are.

Just for the record i have no interest in debating either that or what the hell "social means of production" is suppose to be in your opinion.

You're the one who brought up social democracies in this thread. Why is it unreasonable to ask for the criteria that distinguishes a social democracy from a non-social democracy?

The "social means of production" is the opposite of the "private means of production". The former is when the means of production is collectivized and the latter is where the means of production is controlled by individual property owners that can a make a profit. This isn't my opinion unless you're saying that every description of them is wrong.

[Endus]

I respect your opinion but i disagree, i find a capitalist model with enough regulation and involvement from the government to protect it's citizen rights to be the best model we have so far.

You're describing anti-capitalist systems in your support of capitalist systems, you realize. I hope.

I also disagree that the government is a great producer such as seen in the USSR.

That's simply counter-factual.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3594504?seq=1
https://tnsr.org/2018/02/assessing-s...ance-cold-war/

There's a reason the USSR beat the USA into space, and why there was a race to be the first to reach the moon; the USSR's economy was growing faster than the USA's in that time frame. It had a lower starting point, pre-WWII, and WWII hurt the USSR significantly more than the USA, but the USSR's economic policy overtook that deficit in the post-war decade.

It didn't hold, but that it produced an explosion of economic growth in the USSR is simply a historical fact.

[cubby]

Is New Zealand the leftist ideal? Their Labor Party actually wins elections. Successfully contained Covid. Rejected dumdum populism.

Labour’s historic win delivered Ardern a second term while voters punished politicians who embraced populism




Jacinda Ardern, New Zealand’s Labour prime minister who was returned to power for a second term with a commanding majority, has often been hailed internationally as a foil to global surges in right-wing movements and the rise of strongmen such as Donald Trump and Brazil’s leader, Jair Bolsonaro.

But the historic victory of Ardern’s centre-left party on polling day – its best result in five decades, winning 64 of parliament’s 120 seats – was not the only measure by which New Zealand bucked global trends in its vote. The public also rejected some political hopefuls’ rallying cries to populism, conspiracy theories and scepticism about Covid-19.

The lack of traction gained by fringe or populist movements was due to the majority of New Zealanders’ long-term contentment with the direction the country was headed – which had persisted for more than 20 years, through both centre-right and centre-left governments, and prevented populist sentiment from taking root, analysts said.

TLDR;
“A huge reason that our politics is not so extremely polarised and so far out there is because we no longer have Murdoch-owned press in New Zealand, and it’s never taken a foothold,”

Grats to Jacinda Ardern
I'm thinking if other leftists want to be successful, should model themselves after her instead of Sanders or Corbyn.

What a beautiful country. I've been there once, and would gladly immigrate if that were at all personally possible.

The note about Murdoch media is beyond telling.

[Endus]

You're the one who brought up social democracies in this thread. Why is it unreasonable to ask for the criteria that distinguishes a social democracy from a non-social democracy?

The "social means of production" is the opposite of the "private means of production". The former is when the means of production is collectivized and the latter is where the means of production is controlled by individual property owners that can a make a profit. This isn't my opinion unless you're saying that every description of them is wrong.

To be clear, "social means of production" includes all models such as employee-owned shops, co-operatives, and member-owned clubs. It doesn't mean there's no pursuit of profit, it doesn't mean it isn't owned by private citizens, and it doesn't mean it must be owned by society as a whole, collectively.