WOW- Now pay to win?

[Orange Joe]

and you are shining example yourself

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as an outsider too, one is basing is opinion on definitions and general consensus, other on his ego and making his own definitions...
doesnt take much to know which opinion is completely useles

Whats the general consensus? I mean reading through this thread shows there is no general consensus on pay to win.

[froschhure]

Get rid of the token. Problem solved, since blizz is also selling gold via daughter sites.

[Lolites]

Whats the general consensus? I mean reading through this thread shows there is no general consensus on pay to win.

general consensus doesnt mean everybody agrees (not to mention people on this forum wouldnt agree on how much 2+2 is), so not everyone here following it doesnt mean there is no general consensus...

but for pay-two-win general consensus is there needs to be clear advantage provided for real money by game itself (or by game provider), usualy not achievable otherwise via playing, neither of which is true for WoW...

[shadowmatrix]

Whats the general consensus? I mean reading through this thread shows there is no general consensus on pay to win.

That's because the definition keeps changing every other month but as much as I dislike that sort of thing that is the very foundation of language so it is what it is.

[Lolites]

Get rid of the token. Problem solved, since blizz is also selling gold via daughter sites.

id love to know what problem that would exactly solve?

bcs if you consider people buying gold, or using the gold to buy gear a problem, neither of those would be solved via removing token, people would just do it the same way they did BEFORE token existed...

on the other hand, people would not be able to buy gametime for gold, so it would CREATE a problem of quite a few people leaving...

[Very Tired]

The person above got it exactly right. Pay to win is not a word you'll find in the official dictionary, so it's exact definition will vary from person to person ever so slightly.

People can generally agree that it's paying money to official game sources, i.e. anything that won't get you banned. So paying to buy your friend's account or buying gold from Chinese gold farmers isn't pay to win. Other than that, who knows. It's just people trying to argue their definition of a word is better than everyone's elses.

[rhorle]

People can generally agree that it's paying money to official game sources, i.e. anything that won't get you banned. So paying to buy your friend's account or buying gold from Chinese gold farmers isn't pay to win. Other than that, who knows. It's just people trying to argue their definition of a word is better than everyone's elses.

You are describing a microtransaction or RMT. Pay to win requires you to be buying power. So using a Chinese boosting service is pay to win but since it violates the terms of service it is different than if blizzard offered a boosting service for money.

[Vasilisa]

This topic is still going strong? Wow. It was posted in February

[Thelxi]

PvE win = Clearing Mythic Raids or high-level mythic plus dungeons.
PvP win = High rank Arenas/Rated BGs.

Not seeing where mounts fit in.

Pay-to-win has a simple definition: The developer (Blizzard) selling equipment with stats. Mounts are not pay-to-win. Cosmetics are not pay-to-win. Player-sold loot/runs are not pay-to-win.

WoW is not pay-to-win and will not be pay-to-win until Blizzard starts selling non-cosmetic equipment.

See, to you this definition might be comforting or adequate for whatever reason, but people with the ability to think critically don't agree with you.

You might choose to dismiss, or partake in, buying loot runs or PvP rating with your credit card, but others can see it for what it is.

The hypocrisy alone of Blizzard being perfectly happy as the middle man for these credit card to loot transactions, after spending years and years lambasting and punishing these exact same transactions.

[Metrox]

You could always buy BOEs for money, so either wow has always been p2w or never.

Agree! Oh wait....never mind....I have my 10 characters now.

[Belloc]

See, to you this definition might be comforting or adequate for whatever reason, but people with the ability to think critically don't agree with you.

You might choose to dismiss, or partake in, buying loot runs or PvP rating with your credit card, but others can see it for what it is.

The hypocrisy alone of Blizzard being perfectly happy as the middle man for these credit card to loot transactions, after spending years and years lambasting and punishing these exact same transactions.

The problem Blizzard had with people selling gold is that Blizzard wasn't the one making money. That's not hypocrisy, that's smart business. The terms of service are pretty clear on these issues. In any case, as I've already stated, Blizzard still isn't selling gold -- they're selling tokens (game time) and players are using the gold that they already have to purchase those tokens (game time).

As far as the whole definition and thinking critically nonsense? Maybe read the rest of my posts where I distinguish between dev-created win-conditions and player-created goals. Players can disagree all they want, but players aren't the ones determining the game's win-conditions -- that's Blizzard. If these people had the critical thought skills that you're suggesting, they wouldn't be arguing.

Now, I really don't want to repeat my arguments anew, so go read the rest of my posts and catch yourself up. Or, since you aren't very likely to do this, I'll just paste one of my responses here:

You can define it however you want but, again, that's a personal definition. This is not a discussion on personal goals, it's a discussion on pay-to-win. Pay-to-win refers to completing the win conditions defined by the game itself, not by players making up their own personal "wins."

You need to realize that your personal goals are relevant to yourself and no one else. If my personal goal is to collect as many WoW tokens as possible, then I guess WoW is very much pay-to-win... except, I think you can agree that that's a really stupid metric. Well, guess what? I feel the same way about you sitting here thinking that your personal goals are winning.

So, which of us are right? Are your personal goals winning? Is my collect-all-the-WoW tokens goal winning? Is it stupid to consider collect-all-the-WoW-Tokens as a personal goal? Is it stupid to consider your personal goals as relevant in a discussion on pay-to-win?

[Lodreh]

...I asked both if its good gameplay and if its P2W...

What gameplay? Buying BoE's? It's existed forever, and IMHO just RNG gearing... which I feel is a bad system for gearing.

P2W? Not really. You are paying players to farm things for you not Blizzard for BiS. If the drops were more plentiful then players wouldn't charge as much... but in the end it's other players benefiting from these rare drops. Token sells are incidental to the crap of RNG gearing in general.

[Orange Joe]

general consensus doesnt mean everybody agrees (not to mention people on this forum wouldnt agree on how much 2+2 is), so not everyone here following it doesnt mean there is no general consensus...

but for pay-two-win general consensus is there needs to be clear advantage provided for real money by game itself (or by game provider), usualy not achievable otherwise via playing, neither of which is true for WoW...

I know it doesn't mean everyone, but even in this thread not many claim this definition. It's the one I personally agree with but I've not found many that agree with me.

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OP is crying cuz he saw a BOE on the AH for 3mil gold, which means somebody would have to pay almost $450 worth of wow tokens just for a single piece of gear...out of what, 16 slots? I don't think you need to wait for a consensus to understand that you'd ('you' in a general sense, not you personally)have to be an idiot to believe that that makes wow p2w.

A 1/3 of Americans are struggling just to pay rent and make ends meet, yet OP would have us believe there are a slew of players just ready to shell out over $7,000 just to get a single character geared out in World of Warcraft.

Can we all stop trying so hard to live in hyperbole land and just calm the hell down?

Yeah I'm not even bothering with the op lol. Nor do I think that is what makes a game p2w. I've always been the p2w = buying power you can't normally(reasonably) obtain in game.

[Lolites]

I know it doesn't mean everyone, but even in this thread not many claim this definition. It's the one I personally agree with but I've not found many that agree with me.

was there ever anything people on this forum didnt disagree with just for the sake of arguing?
but tbh, id say most people arguing if wow is p2w in this thread are not against that definition, but rather try to stretch it so wow will fit it

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wth are you talking about lol?

general consensus does not mean ALL people agree, it means majority, or at least biggest part of people agrees...

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See, to you this definition might be comforting or adequate for whatever reason, but people with the ability to think critically don't agree with you.

or they agree with him, dont flatter yourself calling yourself "criticaly thinking" person if your ability to think is stuck half way through...

if you buy boost through dungeon via gold which you farmed is it pay-to-win? you paid no real money, yet you have literaly the same "advantage" that someone who did... and gold farming is not even hard or unachievable, literaly anyone can go and farm gold, you dont even have to be level cap...

[Lolites]

And ice melts when hot why are you randomly explaining things like somebody asked?

bcs you did?

wth are you talking about lol?

or perhaps if you meant something else by that question you might learn HOW to ask to get proper answer, dont know about you but i cant read minds so i answer what was asked not what was meant by it

as to the post you reacted at first, read the whole conversation, and you MIGHT understand it

[czarek]

Still on P2W? Crruptions are sucefully killed. And tbh P2W is when developer/publisher earn money for it. Selling items on internet auctions does not fit in P2W system. Its was more like RNG but they fixed it adding corruption crafting system and graduatly take then away

[cparle87]

I know it doesn't mean everyone, but even in this thread not many claim this definition. It's the one I personally agree with but I've not found many that agree with me.

My first MMO went that way in a big way. In that game items with +1 stats were good, +2 were great, and rarely +3 were godly items. I quit for a while, then came back. You couldn't even use /general or even /say in any town because of constant nonstop currency sellers, dozens of bots on every screen. And worse, the company opened a massive gear store. Want that godly piece of gear with +3 stat? $5 to have it for a month, $25 to have it forever, $30 to have a piece with +4 stat you can't even get in the game for a month, and $50 to have it forever. You read that right. Better than BiS gear for sale. I uninstalled and never looked back.

[mojusk]

corruption boes did make wow very much p2w.
would limit have won without full raid of bis corruption? no.
would they have been able to buy these without a real life money investment? no.

was it p2w before corruption?
a little bit, but not to the same extend. a titanforged bis item with socket was nowhere near as big a power increase as a item with bis corruption, and nowhere near as rare.

is it p2w when the item is available in game? when its so rare and powerful, yes!

[loras]

corruption boes did make wow very much p2w.
would limit have won without full raid of bis corruption? no.
would they have been able to buy these without a real life money investment? no.

was it p2w before corruption?
a little bit, but not to the same extend. a titanforged bis item with socket was nowhere near as big a power increase as a item with bis corruption, and nowhere near as rare.

is it p2w when the item is available in game? when its so rare and powerful, yes!

This.
Unless your ultimate win is collecting, then it was pay to win since WotLK's star horse.

[Lolites]

I was talking about the first post I quoted where you just randomly when on a tangent explaining a definition of a word to Orange Joe it was just weird guy
This is derailing and for that I apologize I'm not responding anymore.

only one derailing is you...
he said there is no general consensus bcs there are people disagreeing i explained not everybody have to agree the general consensus...
maybe if you want to join conversation in the middle at least read it whole so you know whats it about and dont end up looking like fool again...