WOW- Now pay to win?

[Packmule]

corruption boes did make wow very much p2w.
would limit have won without full raid of bis corruption? no.
would they have been able to buy these without a real life money investment? no.

was it p2w before corruption?
a little bit, but not to the same extend. a titanforged bis item with socket was nowhere near as big a power increase as a item with bis corruption, and nowhere near as rare.

is it p2w when the item is available in game? when its so rare and powerful, yes!

Sure they would have won, regardless of your fantasies, buying something on the action house is not technically paying to win. But hey. Some people just dont know any better.

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Anyone who thinks token isn't pay to win is delusional and not worth talking to imo.

Like you can literally buy the best shit with real money right now. That's winning. And Activision-Blizzard (let's face it this was an Activision move) know it.

It's a disgusting practice. Gold should be one way to pay for sub. Not the ability to buy gold. Activision knew they could siphon even more money from them while making them fire more employees so they did it........ Record profit years and yet they're firing left, right and center and even during a global pandemic. Disgusting.

I dindt know that if a person bought an item he would automatically win a duel or something, wont he actually have to fight first?

I could practically ask my neighbor if hed like to play my char, and farm gold. That would inherently also be p2w right? So every game EVER created would be p2w. Perhaps you should stop playing altogether

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With corruption it was most definitely pay to win. One BoE could double your dps.

Generally its just kind of an indirect pay to win. You can buy tokens, buy carries in game and buy a few powerful BoEs off the AH.

I think people think if you aren't buying an item directly off the cash shop its not pay to win, but all Blizzard has to do is set up a 2 or 3-point transaction system that accomplishes the same thing for them and they get to dodge any major controversy.

Nah, he would actually have to press his/her abbilties first. Unless you know an item on the auction house that does everything for you, instead of you having to do anything. Your just grasping at straws my man

[LordTakeo]

I think this title should be "Was corruption/Titanforging p2w?" since 90% of arguments lead there, as baseline WoW isn't exactly p2w.

Titanforging could atleast be fished for with M+ spamm.

[Xorzor]

WoW is not pay-to-win. An example of such a game would be RIFT; as I remember, you could buy the previous tier of raid gear from their shop. Not to mention a pot-load of other things.

But this latest store purchase - the Sprite-Darter transmog, has me intrigued but in a bad way. It's like Activision (let's face it, Blizzard are almost nothing now) is testing how far they can go with this stuff before a full-on revolt that they won't be able to stop.

[Vorkreist]

What's actually rather amusing here is that guys like you and @Kralljin clearly have a bone to pick with Blizzard which is driving your narrative here. So it's ironic that you'd assume that those who have the gall to call you out on the biased nonsense you like to preach would be doing so from some of their own vested interests.

You don't call out shit. You make zero sense with those failed attempts to defend p2w.
There is no need to panic. You are safe. Its not like that trash p2w system will go away anytime soon.
Just tab back to the game, there some sad whales begging for some boosts.

[Raelbo]

general consensus doesnt mean everybody agrees (not to mention people on this forum wouldnt agree on how much 2+2 is), so not everyone here following it doesnt mean there is no general consensus...

but for pay-two-win general consensus is there needs to be clear advantage provided for real money by game itself (or by game provider), usualy not achievable otherwise via playing, neither of which is true for WoW...

Exactly. All these people commenting about how "obvious" it is that WoW is p2w really just don't realise how ignorant they sound. And it's because they're basing their entire argument purely on their own nonsense interpretations of a concept, without every bothering to find out what the rest of the world says.

But I guess that is the world we live in today. Where every common person is encouraged to believe their opinion is equal to everyone else's, regardless of their actual expertise. People just don't seem to understand the concept of having warrants for their arguments, or how to make a valid argument based on established and credible information.

[Wildpantz]

Anyone who thinks token isn't pay to win is delusional and not worth talking to imo.

Like you can literally buy the best shit with real money right now. That's winning. And Activision-Blizzard (let's face it this was an Activision move) know it.

It's a disgusting practice. Gold should be one way to pay for sub. Not the ability to buy gold. Activision knew they could siphon even more money from them while making them fire more employees so they did it........ Record profit years and yet they're firing left, right and center and even during a global pandemic. Disgusting.

Do you think getting gear is winning? You can give a donkey all the gear in the world still won't manage normal mode

[ymirsson]

You don't call out shit. You make zero sense with those failed attempts to defend p2w.
There is no need to panic. You are safe. Its not like that trash p2w system will go away anytime soon.
Just tab back to the game, there some sad whales begging for some boosts.

Do you have WiFi in your tin-foil hut?

[Toybox]

Do you think getting gear is winning? You can give a donkey all the gear in the world still won't manage normal mode

I don't know why people don't understand this to be honest.

Winning is playing with your friends & having fun. If you're raiding, that means tackling difficult content as a group & overcoming it. Can you pay to win that? Like I said earlier, you can definitely pay to get an advantage (BoEs, boosted for gear to help your guildies out, etc), but you can't pay for the actual winning experience. Any attempt at trying would be like paying an escort to pretend to be your girlfriend & acting like you're the man

Anyone who thinks gear is the sole thing that determines winning likely doesn't do any sort of high level raiding/PvP anyway.

[Raelbo]

corruption boes did make wow very much p2w.

No they didn't. Although I get how it might look the same to the unitiated.

Try to remember the pay-to-win is the opposite of play-to-win.

How are corruption BoE's created? By people playing (hint: in a p2w game, those corruption items would be created by means of a purchase)
How is the gold used to trade the BoE's created? By people playing (hint: in a p2w game, that gold would be created by means of a purchase)

I am not trying to pretend that you can't spend $$ to buy an advantage. Nor am I even debating whether this is a good thing or bad. But what I am saying is that isn't pay-to-win. It's part of WoW being a multi-player game in which people are able to work together and trade.

would limit have won without full raid of bis corruption? no.
would they have been able to buy these without a real life money investment? no.

But they didn't buy them with real life money. They raised a fuckton of gold, from a combination of donations from fans and selling boosted runs. So your argument isn't even valid.

That being said, they could certainly have spent real $$ buying up tokens to help fund their campaign. But have you stopped to consider where the gold is coming from? Because it is still coming from other players. Essentially, even if they had spent a whole lot of cash buying tokens, it's simply paying other players to farm their gold for them. Which is something that could happen anyway, with or without the token.

The simple fact here, when talking about WF guilds is that they have corporate sponsorship. And with said corporate sponsorship, there are many ways of helping out a WoW player (or guild) to win. For example, they could simply sponsor people in their guild with the expectation that those being sponsored go out there and be gold-making drones who funnel all their gold to the raid team. And the more money that is available, the more gold they could rake in. But it's not pay-to-win. Because it's still just the collective effort of players working towards a common goal. The word I would probably use for this is "Mercenary".

Pay-to-win would be where the transaction is simply the guild gives Blizz a whole lot of money and Blizz then mails them the BoE corruption item. There would be no competition to outbid others on the AH. You wouldn't have an army of players out there playing the game with the intent of generating gold, and another army of players out there doing the content to find those BoE's.

was it p2w before corruption?
a little bit, but not to the same extend. a titanforged bis item with socket was nowhere near as big a power increase as a item with bis corruption, and nowhere near as rare.

As long as the gold and the items in question are created by means of people playing the game, it's patently and clear play-to-win.

is it p2w when the item is available in game? when its so rare and powerful, yes!

It's pay-to-win when the items enter the game because of payment made, not when it's traded with another player (even if for real money).

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You don't call out shit. You make zero sense with those failed attempts to defend p2w.

Lol. I am not attempting to defend p2w, so take your strawman elsewhere.

I don't like p2w any more than you do. I am saying that tokens are not p2w and that the basis for your claims that they are lacks any kind of warrant.

[mojusk]

Sure they would have won, regardless of your fantasies, buying something on the action house is not technically paying to win. But hey. Some people just dont know any better.n

do you really think that they just looked at AH now and then and there just happend to be 100s of bis corruption gear in the AH?
all top guilds had scouts camping AHs on all servers, and they all had hotline connection to the shady gold community gallywix who sold gear to the highest bidder, which was usually gold cap or more.
and to afford these kinda prices they mustve bought all the wow-tokens they could on all their accounts. scripe from former method even admitted to have bought gold from gallywix with real money.
limit havnt admitted that, but i doubt that they didnt.

im not a limit hater, i find it refreshing when some other guild than former method wins.
but no guild wouldve had any chance of winning without boe corruption.

ofc im not saying that you could give a bunch of random lfr-heroes bis corruption and they wouldve won, you needed to have both bis corruption AND insane skill to have a chance to win.

[Vorkreist]

I don't know why people don't understand this to be honest.

Winning is playing with your friends & having fun. If you're raiding, that means tackling difficult content as a group & overcoming it. Can you pay to win that? Like I said earlier, you can definitely pay to get an advantage (BoEs, boosted for gear to help your guildies out, etc), but you can't pay for the actual winning experience. Any attempt at trying would be like paying an escort to pretend to be your girlfriend & acting like you're the man

Anyone who thinks gear is the sole thing that determines winning likely doesn't do any sort of high level raiding/PvP anyway.

Its not about your personal non related idea of what winning is. The term refers to behaviours like what Blizzard does. and originated from games that sell gear and power boosts for real money.

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No they didn't. Although I get how it might look the same to the unitiated.

Try to remember the pay-to-win is the opposite of play-to-win.

How are corruption BoE's created? By people playing (hint: in a p2w game, those corruption items would be created by means of a purchase)
How is the gold used to trade the BoE's created? By people playing (hint: in a p2w game, that gold would be created by means of a purchase)

I am not trying to pretend that you can't spend $$ to buy an advantage. Nor am I even debating whether this is a good thing or bad. But what I am saying is that isn't pay-to-win. It's part of WoW being a multi-player game in which people are able to work together and trade.



But they didn't buy them with real life money. They raised a fuckton of gold, from a combination of donations from fans and selling boosted runs. So your argument isn't even valid.

That being said, they could certainly have spent real $$ buying up tokens to help fund their campaign. But have you stopped to consider where the gold is coming from? Because it is still coming from other players. Essentially, even if they had spent a whole lot of cash buying tokens, it's simply paying other players to farm their gold for them. Which is something that could happen anyway, with or without the token.

The simple fact here, when talking about WF guilds is that they have corporate sponsorship. And with said corporate sponsorship, there are many ways of helping out a WoW player (or guild) to win. For example, they could simply sponsor people in their guild with the expectation that those being sponsored go out there and be gold-making drones who funnel all their gold to the raid team. And the more money that is available, the more gold they could rake in. But it's not pay-to-win. Because it's still just the collective effort of players working towards a common goal. The word I would probably use for this is "Mercenary".

Pay-to-win would be where the transaction is simply the guild gives Blizz a whole lot of money and Blizz then mails them the BoE corruption item. There would be no competition to outbid others on the AH. You wouldn't have an army of players out there playing the game with the intent of generating gold, and another army of players out there doing the content to find those BoE's.



As long as the gold and the items in question are created by means of people playing the game, it's patently and clear play-to-win.



It's pay-to-win when the items enter the game because of payment made, not when it's traded with another player (even if for real money).

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Lol. I am not attempting to defend p2w, so take your strawman elsewhere.

I don't like p2w any more than you do. I am saying that tokens are not p2w and that the basis for your claims that they are lacks any kind of warrant.

You can try to spin around the hard obvious "You pay money for massive advantages in the game" aka P2W all you want. You exposed beyond all doubt that you are boost seller already.

[Raelbo]

You can try to spin around the hard obvious "You pay money for massive advantages in the game" aka P2W all you want.

You're just grossly overstating the magnitude of the advantages of using tokens to acquire gold vs obtaining gold by playing the game.

You are correct that having more gold is useful, but you have (thus far) failed to provide any argument linking having gold to needing tokens. That's where your argument ends. Because, fundamentally, the token mechanism of transferring gold from other players places a hard limit on the value of the gold you can acquire via tokens.

In short: Using tokens to get your gold can never be the default, optimal or preferable way to do so.

The bottom line is this: If tokens were indeed pay-to-win, then it stands to reason that those players buying tokens would be winning, relative to those not buying tokens. Yet the whole premise of your own argument rests on those who do buy tokens having to rely on other, better, players who, by any definition of "win" are winning more than the token buyers.

You exposed beyond all doubt that you are boost seller already.

I'll say this again since you seem to have difficulty grasping it: this assertion of yours is laughably desperate. And since I know that I am not booster, you've basically just admitted that you have no argument. I mean I wish I was that good at the game that I was in a position to sell boosts. And honestly, I'd be interested to hear from an actual booster what their opinion is regarding whether tokens are pay-to-win.

But the fact remains that your choice of resorting to this kind of ad hominem type of attack simply illustrates the flimsiness of your argument.

[Baneto]

The game is pay to win in many ways that already have been portraied in the thread already, this thread has become a battle of semantics and perception.

If you dont believe its pay to win its your right to have that opinion, but just dont come and pass your free fantasized opinions as facts.

[rhorle]

The game is pay to win in many ways that already have been portraied in the thread already, this thread has become a battle of semantics and perception. If you dont believe its pay to win its your right to have that opinion, but just dont come and pass your free fantasized opinions as facts.

But isn't that what you are doing by saying only your view is the right one and anything else isn't fact?

[Raelbo]

The game is pay to win in many ways that already have been portraied in the thread already, this thread has become a battle of semantics and perception.

The game is pay-to-win when every self-proclaimed authority on the subject chooses to pick their own personal definition of pay-to-win. At which point actually being pay-to-win becomes utterly meaningless.

Which is funny because I think that most of the "WoW is p2w" crowd here just want to put it into that box so that they can point at WoW and say "WoW is shitty because it's P2W". We have a few shining examples of this above. But if they're going to pick and choose a definition to suit their desire to shoehorn WoW into the definition, while completely ignoring what makes p2w problematic in the first place, they're achieving precisely nothing.

If you dont believe its pay to win its your right to have that opinion, but just dont come and pass your free fantasized opinions as facts.

How about: If you want to have an opinion then:
1) Go do your research on what the term means, where it comes from, why it is regarded as "bad"
2) Construct a proper argument with proper warrants and backing, using something like the Toulmin Method as a gauge for how good your argument is

Because, like it or not, all opinions are not equal. But hey I've already said this before and you simply refused to hear it

[goodman2020]

Guys, why you are so focused on the fact that wow became p2w? A game first of all has to give you satisfaction if someone receives pleasure donating real money in the game is only his decision.

[Baneto]

But isn't that what you are doing by saying only your view is the right one and anything else isn't fact?

I never said literally that my opinion is fact, did I? I still stand by my own opinion on the subject though.

The game is pay-to-win when every self-proclaimed authority on the subject chooses to pick their own personal definition of pay-to-win. At which point actually being pay-to-win becomes utterly meaningless.

Which is funny because I think that most of the "WoW is p2w" crowd here just want to put it into that box so that they can point at WoW and say "WoW is shitty because it's P2W". We have a few shining examples of this above. But if they're going to pick and choose a definition to suit their desire to shoehorn WoW into the definition, while completely ignoring what makes p2w problematic in the first place, they're achieving precisely nothing.



How about: If you want to have an opinion then:
1) Go do your research on what the term means, where it comes from, why it is regarded as "bad"
2) Construct a proper argument with proper warrants and backing, using something like the Toulmin Method as a gauge for how good your argument is

Because, like it or not, all opinions are not equal. But hey I've already said this before and you simply refused to hear it

Okay, and you go do your research on the definition on the word "opinion" and think a little about it because I think you're still confused about it.

Guys, why you are so focused on the fact that wow became p2w? A game first of all has to give you satisfaction if someone receives pleasure donating real money in the game is only his decision.

Exactly this, people confused that everyone has different definitions on what they consider a win.

[Raelbo]

Guys, why you are so focused on the fact that wow became p2w?

It is anything but a fact.

The reason, I suspect, that those who want to claim that is, is because they erroneously believe that if that can claim it is such, then they can finally claim that they have proven how awful the game is... (as if meeting some arbitrary definition of p2w means anything )

A game first of all has to give you satisfaction if someone receives pleasure donating real money in the game is only his decision.

Exactly. All these people so desperate to convince us that it is p2w only want to do so in order to try and show us how bad the game has become. But instead of arguing over whether it fits some useless definition that they made up of what p2w is (which is basically a strawman fallacy) they should rather be answering the question of whether the token is good or bad for the game on its merits. There is a reason they don't want to do that though, because the inevitable conclusions wouldn't suit their narrative

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I never said literally that my opinion is fact, did I? I still stand by my own opinion on the subject though.

But you want to present your opinion as having equal merit to any other just because it's an opinion. Yet you have failed on every fundamental level to provide any support for your opinion.

Okay, and you go do your research on the definition on the word "opinion" and think a little about it because I think you're still confused about it.

Maybe you need to enlighten me about exactly what I am confused about. And back it up with reasons and some citation.

Exactly this, people confused that everyone has different definitions on what they consider a win.

The fact that you would say this even after all I have said tells me that you haven't understood a word.

Let me be clear. I understand that everyone has their own opinion about what a win is. What I have been labouring to get through to you is that your argument that WoW is pay-to-win is inadequate regardless of how anyone defines a win. Because "pay-to-win" means you have to pay in order to win. So sure, you've told us all about what you think is a win, but you have not demonstrated how you're forced to pay real $$ for it.

So the bottom line is this: The token simply gives you access to a small amount of gold that you can very easily acquire without having to spend $$ on it. What you choose to that gold on doesn't matter - therefore arguing about what you think qualifies as a win has no effect on whether WoW is pay-to-win.

That is a fundamental problem with your argument, even before we get to the question of whether your opinion has any merit (which it may or may not if you actually bothered to substantiate it)

[Baneto]

I dont understand how you can try arguing against the fact that the WoW-token makes the game pay 2 win.

Its stupid but it doesnt make the game suck, but its just a fact.
An example: Someone buys enough gold to acquire whatever he wants in the game without lifting a finger himself.

[ymirsson]

I dont understand how you can try arguing against the fact that the WoW-token makes the game pay 2 win.

Its stupid but it doesnt make the game suck, but its just a fact.
An example: Someone buys enough gold to acquire whatever he wants in the game without lifting a finger himself.

I dont understand how you can try arguing against the fact that the WoW-token makes the game not pay 2 win.

Its stupid but it doesnt make the game not suck, but its just a fact.
An example: Someone play enough to acquire whatever he wants in the game without buying a single gold coin.