Page 1 of 6
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    If the Alliance accepted the Forsaken

    I often think how the world of Warcraft would have been had only the Alliance accepted the Forsaken as victims as opposed to monsters after their freedom. Would Sylvanas have being so bitter? Would the Blight have happened? Would Gilneas have fallen?

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Land of human potential (and non-toxic masculinity)
    Posts
    23,003
    If that happened forsaken would instantly become bland and boring (just like calia). They would all just be like those sobbing forsaken refugees in orgrimmar.

  3. #3
    It'd be better for the in-story inhabitants and more boring for the audience, just like the acceptance of Death Knights, Warlocks, Demon Hunters, void elves etc.

    Today I will remind you that even regular arcane magic used to be seen with suspicion, now you can be partly composed of the force of cosmic entropy and destruction and you can chill out in Stormwind just fine.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  4. #4
    Honestly prefer what we got. The forsaken are defined by that distinctive edge caused by rejection by the living, it's quite literally in the name.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  5. #5
    What's likely to have happened is that Sylvanas' goal to empower herself and the Jailer would've been much harder to achieve. She still would've killed herself after Arthas' defeat and met the Jailer, formulating a plan to break the cosmos. That is inevitable. Alliance or Horde, Edge of Night would still happen.

    However she'd have a harder time putting that plan into motion. First of all, she'd have more problems trying to become High King than Warchief, because she'd need to have both Anduin and Varian killed (since apparently the position is hereditary), and then she'd have to find a way to convince the other Alliance leaders to nominate her "High Queen" of the Alliance. At that point, she could start the Fourth War vs. the Horde to gather a massive amount of souls, but her job would be much harder, as the role of High King is about army focus, not control, and the Alliance leaders are not bound by oath. It'd be harder to drag the Alliance into a bloody world war. So really being Warchief (= supreme authority in the faction) facilitated her goal a lot.

    One redeeming factor is that, if she were Alliance, then the Sin'dorei would be brought into the Alliance in TBC, and Alleria and Vereesa would have a better opinion of their sister.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-10-21 at 03:16 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  6. #6
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,579
    I don't really think Sylvanas is overly bitter about what happened with the ambassadors that she sent (in point of fact, I actually find their "disappearance" to be somewhat suspect in hindsight). If the Forsaken had been accepted and allied with the other Alliance nations I don't think it would ultimately change much, though; not insofar as Sylvanas or the Forsaken are concerned. Gilneas likely wouldn't have been attacked, but Sylvanas would've still gone ahead with the Blight as that was a weapon designed primarily to content with Arthas and the Scourge. The Wrathgate incident would've likely also happened, except the lion's share of blame would go to the Alliance as opposed to the Horde. Beyond that is anyone's guess, really.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    3,062
    Tirion should have also vouched for the Forsaken to the Alliance like he did with Alliance race Death Knights

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'd say in the long run Sylvanas would still do the post-WotLK Sylvanas except perhaps it's now troll lands she would terrrorize
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  8. #8
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,560
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    What's likely to have happened is that Sylvanas' goal to empower herself and the Jailer would've been much harder to achieve. She still would've killed herself after Arthas' defeat and met the Jailer, formulating a plan to break the cosmos. That is inevitable. Alliance or Horde, Edge of Night would still happen.

    However she'd have a harder time putting that plan into motion. First of all, she'd have more problems trying to become High King than Warchief, because she'd need to have both Anduin and Varian killed (since apparently the position is hereditary), and then she'd have to find a way to convince the other Alliance leaders to nominate her "High Queen" of the Alliance. At that point, she could start the Fourth War vs. the Horde to gather a massive amount of souls, but her job would be much harder, as the role of High King is not about army focus, nor control, and the Alliance leaders are not bound by oath. It'd be harder to drag the Alliance into a bloody world war. So really being Warchief (= supreme authority in the faction) facilitated her goal a lot.

    One redeeming factor is that, if she were Alliance, then the Sin'dorei would be brought into the Alliance in TBC, and Alleria and Vereesa would have a better opinion of their sister.
    It really wouldn’t be that hard as sylvanas could stoke varians urge for war from classic to cata like no other alliance leader did and garrosh would be even more willing to go to war after beating the scourge as the alliance would have the neo scourge.

    Assuming the forsaken kept to more or less the same temperament all of the evil crap they did would be forced at the horde leading the horde members to be way more wary of the alliance and likely backing garrosh a lot more.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2020-10-21 at 03:18 PM.

  9. #9
    The whole "disappearing ambassadors" was a post-facto justification. They decided to put playable "Scourge" in the Horde (when you look at early design docs and pictures of whiteboards, Forsaken are called Scourge), and only much later did they bother with a reason beyond "Nature loving Tauren felt sad for the wildly unnatural abominations".
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  10. #10
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    24,560
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Tirion should have also vouched for the Forsaken to the Alliance like he did with Alliance race Death Knights
    Tirion was an exile at the time his word would mean nothing if he wasn’t just put to death.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    The whole "disappearing ambassadors" was a post-facto justification. They decided to put playable "Scourge" in the Horde (when you look at early design docs and pictures of whiteboards, Forsaken are called Scourge), and only much later did they bother with a reason beyond "Nature loving Tauren felt sad for the wildly unnatural abominations".
    To be fair, killing undead that tell you they're on the level after you hear about your last troops there being killed and knowing them to be abominations against the Light isn't the out of character decision there. The out of character decision is then being fine with the Death Knights a few years later.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't really think Sylvanas is overly bitter about what happened with the ambassadors that she sent (in point of fact, I actually find their "disappearance" to be somewhat suspect in hindsight).
    Right, I forget, Sylvanas is behind it all, just fucking retcon everything, Aucald will eat it up.

  13. #13
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Right, I forget, Sylvanas is behind it all, just fucking retcon everything, Aucald will eat it up.
    Have you ever seen Sylvanas express any kind of bitterness over it? Or even mention it at any point afterward? Nathanos does, but that's pretty much it - and this could easily be a story that Sylvanas told Nathanos to direct his anger toward the Alliance. I don't consider Sylvanas trustworthy in any sense.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Have you ever seen Sylvanas express any kind of bitterness over it? Or even mention it at any point afterward? Nathanos does, but that's pretty much it - and this could easily be a story that Sylvanas told Nathanos to direct his anger toward the Alliance. I don't consider Sylvanas trustworthy in any sense.
    It's all so tiresome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicle Vol 3. page 113
    Growing more and more desperate (Sylvanas) sent ambassadors to both the Alliance and Horde. Her emissaries to the Alliance never returned. Sylvanas suspected they hadn't survived long enough even to make it past the gates of Stormwind City.
    Quote Originally Posted by Before the Storm, Anduin
    When you approached the Alliance, seeking a home for your people, you were refused. We were still reeling in terror from what Arthas had done to Lordaeron and couldn’t understand that your Forsaken were truly different.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    I often think how the world of Warcraft would have been had only the Alliance accepted the Forsaken as victims as opposed to monsters after their freedom. Would Sylvanas have being so bitter? Would the Blight have happened? Would Gilneas have fallen?
    Does this include the Forsaken's propensity to lack empathy and be a bit sociopathic? Or are we taking the current Forsaken as the sad and want to reconnect with their living relatives and they are just normal people but dead narrative?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    To be fair, killing undead that tell you they're on the level after you hear about your last troops there being killed and knowing them to be abominations against the Light isn't the out of character decision there.
    You won't hear me argue against this.

    The out of character decision is then being fine with the Death Knights a few years later.
    Definitely. Had it been more like the vanilla warlocks in hiding, it would have been better, certainly more interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  17. #17
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's all so tiresome.
    The first quote merely states that it happened, saying nothing about Sylvanas being bitter or having any other emotions on the subject. In Before the Storm Anduin simply states that the emissaries were refused, and nothing else. That's pretty far from conclusive in my eyes, and still doesn't speak at all to what actually happened to said emissaries.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You won't hear me argue against this.

    Definitely. Had it been more like the vanilla warlocks in hiding, it would have been better, certainly more interesting.
    Everyone being very accepting of everything has not served this franchise well. In general the Death Knights as a whole did a lot to undermine both the Alliance and the Forsaken in implementation, though to their credit they moved away from it a bit later by having the DKs be more of their own separate thing.

    Taking the topic as read, I don't see it happening organically, but you could conceivably have had Onyxia push for allying with the Forsaken. Not to truly do so but to engineer societal discontent. The crown was weak at this time, as well as corrupt and while the Alliance weren't pro-Scarlet Crusade, they did tolerate them and the Scarlets were basically just a more proactive idea of what the Church of the Holy Light already advocated doing re: destroying the Forsaken. Saying that these undead are now our allies given the Lordaeron refugees in the city is recipe for disaster for all involved.

    @Aucald

    It has to be challenging to construct so obtuse an argument. Chronicle tells you flat out Sylvanas was desperate when she sent the ambassadors and later says that she suspected they'd been killed before making contact. Anduin later confirms that they were refused because people couldn't see past their appearance in a book that goes on about how the default response to seeing Forsaken is sending them to the grave and quest text in Vanilla telling you that Forsaken hearts are to be ritually burned in pyres. They could have been mugged by bandits or murlocs, true. Maybe Sylvanas had another disassociative episode and slaughtered them out of a crippling fear of achieving her objective of not being destroyed by every neighbouring power, then forgot about it, but odds are that the spade is a spade and the Alliance killed them.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-10-21 at 04:20 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You won't hear me argue against this.

    Definitely. Had it been more like the vanilla warlocks in hiding, it would have been better, certainly more interesting.
    I personally believe the difference between Forsaken and Death Knights were appearance and timing. It was easier for the Alliance to accept Death Knights because of the threat of the Lich King and needing all the support they can get, and the fact they kept most of their original appearance.
    Goodbye-Forever-MMO-Champ
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Alleria's whispers start climaxing

  20. #20
    Something else to remember:

    If Sylvanas joined the Alliance, she wouldn't lay waste to Gilneas. Which means that Greymane wouldn't be around to stop her in Stormheim. Meaning that she gets her endless supply of immortal val'kyrs via the Soulcage. I wonder how that would influence the storyline as well as the plan of the Jailer... food for thought.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •