War (?) has broken out in Nagorno-Karabakh between Armenia and Azerbaijan

[Kallisto]

The picture you post is not relevant at all.

The French does not claim that the whole Atlantic Ocean is French waters because that island. They only claim a bit around the island is French waters. Also one random island at some random place near another country is not the same thing as tiny islands surrounding a huge country.

Tiny islands surrounding a huge country is land owned by another country. Land of another country creates an EEZ, such land belongs to Greece and therefore it is Greek. Sucks for Turkey I guess but Turkey isn't special and doesn't deserve special rules to get extra waters because it fucked up so hard as the Ottomans the minorities felt compelled to kick out the brutal regime that even in their dying days was comitting genocides so bad that their WW1 allies (Germany and Austria) turned around and said "Stop this shit."

If the Ottomans became an actual state that treated all their minorities as equals and became a federal state the modern country might still hold more than just anatolia and a bit of Thrace, thereby having more waters in their EEZ.

[Kellhound]

No point in arguing when someone claims that couple of >1km^2 islands almost completely blocks a 783.562km^2 countries EEZ is justified.

Good try, Greek friend.

Last time I checked, most of Turkey's EEZ is not blocked by Greece. Greece only limits the western side and about 1/4 of the southern side in the Med, and none of the EEZ in the Black Sea.

[zealo]

This is bullshit. According to this logic, if Turkey (point A) buys an island near USA (point B), the whole seas and ocean between point A and point B becomes Turkey's EEZ? I don't think so. Just like you cannot justify having a 1km^2 island which is almost 600 km away from the Greek mainland makes whole eastern Mediterrenean a Greek see.

The Islands in the Aegean are not Turkish. They're as much a part of Greece as Athens is. That Turkey is having problems coming to terms with that is not the fault of Greece.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

In France, as far as I can tell, the media and the whole political spectrum is overwhelmingly in favor of the Armenians, owing to the deep roots the diaspora has there following many genocides, with numerous national celebrities originating from it or simply being sympathetic.

Recently the were some Relief package voted for displaced civilians in Armenia. Following that some politicians started receiving death threats...

A few days ago, Erdogan apparently accused the US, Russia and France of arming Armenia. At this point of ridicule I guess it is pretty clear that this whole pantomime aims only for his electorate...

[Specialka]

In France, as far as I can tell, the media and the whole political spectrum is overwhelmingly in favor of the Armenians, owing to the deep roots the diaspora has there following many genocides, with numerous national celebrities originating from it or simply being sympathetic.

Recently the were some Relief package voted for displaced civilians in Armenia. Following that some politicians started receiving death threats...

No surprise here as we do prefer to help genocided people rather that the one doing the genocide. And I have to say that Macron is right to oppose people like Erdogan & co.

[Ihavewaffles]

Greek claims on Aegean and Mediterrenean.

Is this the bullying you are talking about?

Are there any greek islands so far west and also south? If not, seems like claiming international waters? South is half-way to africa, i think is some megali idea nonsense claim if they don't have islands that far south.

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Greek claims are legal and recognized.

Turkish claims, as usual, are not.

Ethnic cleansing in north Cyprus. Vicious abuses and pogroms against Kurds. Illegal occupations in Syria. Incursions into northern Iraq. Helping Azerbaijan commit war crimes in Artsakh. Threating Israel and stating "Jerusalem is our city". Weaponizing refugees as a weapon on the Greek border. And now demanding other countries' rightful territory.

And that's just the most recent shit Turkey's done, let alone their long history of engaging in their national past time; genocide. Tell you what, when Turkey can admit to the multiple genocides they've committed, like Germany's done, then we can start dealing with all those other issues.

Until then, good day, Turkish apologists have nothing to say.

And they decided that serbia should loose it legal territory, kosovO...

[Wilfire]

All of Azerbaijani people in my Facebook friends are going crazy and posting daily pictures of alleged atrocities by the Armenian side.

Honestly since Turkey is supporting Azerbaijan the situation is highly sus. Both Erdogan and Aliev are imperialistic land-grubbing dickheads. They knew that Karabakh was a problem and yet they continuously kicked the viper's nest.

But the propaganda by Aliev and Erdogan is in full force. Azerbaijanis are clamoring for a holy war and revenge.

This is one of those situations where a functional UN peace enforcing force and a Secretary-General with some balls would really help. Remember Dag Hammarskjold? That guy was the first in the fray every time some nation shat the bed and tried to start a local war.

Modern UN is completely limp-wristed. There should be boots on the ground forcefully separating combatants and hopefully deposing Aliev and trialing him in Nuremberg.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Are there any greek islands so far west and also south? If not, seems like claiming international waters? South is half-way to africa, i think is some megali idea nonsense claim if they don't have islands that far south.

South and West claims are all about the allowed 200 nautical miles EEZ claims allowed by the Law of the Sea. At its narrowest point, the sea between Libya and Greece is only about 140 nautical miles, thus it is logically settled with the principle of equidistance. The West corner you're seeing is a bit less than 200 nautical miles from the coast of Peloponnese, and matches the corresponding 200 miles claim from Italy and Libya.

Notice those are EEZ claims, not territorial water claims.

But where is your map from? On most sources the claimed area is different around Kastellorizo, which is the main point of contention, beside Turkey's disregard for Island nations EEZ rights.

[Ihavewaffles]

So now you've gone from cheerleading Azerbaijan to demanding Greeks give over even more of their land to Turkey? Isn't west Anatolia and Constantinople enough for you?

Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, not even once has one of Turkey's neighbors demanded or encroached on their borders. Yet Turkey has attacked, invaded, or caused problems in ALMOST. EVERY. SINGLE. NEIGHBORING. COUNTRY. Now Turkish-backed Azeris and jihadists from Syria are beheading Armenians in Artsakh.

When will it end?

Did u forget 1st Balkan War 1912-13?...

[Lynarii]

Did u forget 1st Balkan War 1912-13?...

Probably not, but he also didn't forget that the 1st Balkan War was before the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

[Ihavewaffles]

.Our borders are legal and recognized. Turkey has violated the borders and tried to take land from nearly every bordering country. We have not. Turkey, as always, is on the wrong side of history.

Dude, yes you have, with ur megali idea u have behaved just like the turks. Greece northern neighbors lost land to greece. Only country Greece didn't attack was italy.

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Probably not, but he also didn't forget that the 1st Balkan War was before the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Date? I think we mean the decline which is from late 19th to early 20th century. For what reason would u look for a specific date?

[Lynarii]

Date? I think we mean the decline which is from late 19th to early 20th century. For what reason would u look for a specific date?

The person you were quoting specifically said 'since the fall of the Ottoman Empire'. Which was in decline for a time, but it's actual dissolution happened in the aftermath of WW I, during which it was very much still a thing. And WW I was after the 1st Balkan War.

[Ihavewaffles]

But where is your map from? On most sources the claimed area is different around Kastellorizo, which is the main point of contention, beside Turkey's disregard for Island nations EEZ rights.

Wasn't my map, but the guy i replied to..

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The person you were quoting specifically said 'since the fall of the Ottoman Empire'. Which was in decline for a time, but it's actual dissolution happened in the aftermath of WW I, during which it was very much still a thing. And WW I was after the 1st Balkan War.

Fall is when they lost power, which was independence of balkan states in 19th century, 1st Balkan War 1912-13 that kicked the ottomans from most of the remainder of ottoman european territory.

When ww1 came turks were already beaten, ww1 just put pen on the paper what already was..

Nobody in balkans thinks of ww1 "when it happened"..

[Lynarii]

Wasn't my map, but the guy i replied to..

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Fall is when they lost power, which was independence of balkan states in 19th century, 1st Balkan War 1912-13 that kicked the ottomans from most of the remainder of ottoman european territory.

When ww1 came turks were already beaten, ww1 just put pen on the paper what already was..

Nobody in balkans thinks of ww1 "when it happened"..

In the context of the discussion, I think it's fair to say that he was talking about Turkey not having had it's neighbors attack it's borders since the founding of the modern political country of Turkey with Ataturk. It's about the best demarcation line we can draw, going earlier than that doesn't really do anybody any favors. Empires in decline tend to be a clusterfuck with no clean hands at all.

[Kallisto]

Dude, yes you have, with ur megali idea u have behaved just like the turks. Greece northern neighbors lost land to greece. Only country Greece didn't attack was italy.

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Date? I think we mean the decline which is from late 19th to early 20th century. For what reason would u look for a specific date?

The end of the Ottoman Empire happened in the 1920s when it transformed into the Turkish republic. Ottoman empire during WW1 was still large enough to push all the way down into the Arab peninsular.

[Stelio Kontos]

Wasn't my map, but the guy i replied to..

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Fall is when they lost power, which was independence of balkan states in 19th century, 1st Balkan War 1912-13 that kicked the ottomans from most of the remainder of ottoman european territory.

When ww1 came turks were already beaten, ww1 just put pen on the paper what already was..

Nobody in balkans thinks of ww1 "when it happened"..

I was very clear. I meant the 1920s. No one has taken anything from the Republic of Turkey.

As for the Balkan Wars, that is another topic, which would derail this thread even more than it's been derailed.

[Kreuger]

https://de.reuters.com/article/us-ar...-idUKKBN2762RD

"ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey will not hesitate to send soldiers and provide military support for Azerbaijan if such a request is made by Baku, Vice President Fuat Oktay said on Wednesday, adding there was no such request at the moment."

[Easo]

Current Armenian military losses - 834. 62 more from yesterday, I think there is bunch of those from the failed counterattack.
Azeris are still advancing from the south (most likely trying to cut off whole Karabakh by taking road to Lachin, which is the main supply line and is absolutely critical), nothing in the north and east.
P.S.
Some posters from Greek side should chill as well. Greece was not a fully innocent player in the game about Cyprus. It is just the cold hard truth and is what happens when you have military junta in charge amongst other things.

Conventional Scuds are just the slightly more modern V-2 in purpose.

The Su-30s are very very new, and the they are expected to get at least 8 more in the future. It would be a waste of 4 planes and 8 pilots without SEAD capability.

Papa Wernher would be proud.

Still, more than a year into service. What do you propose they do? Keep them in hangars as they loose more and more each day, or attempt to do at least something? :/
As I said - white elephant syndrome. I bet even if they had all 12 planned (still under question whether they can afford the rest) similar situation would happen anyway.

There is conspiracy theory floating around that Pashinyan is actually trying to loose the war to get rid of Artsakh and then fully turn to West. Seems like a bunch of tinfoil considering Armenia's geopolitical location. Or that he really is actually quite inept during wartime.

All that mobilization at the start? Now that was a bullshit. Armenia has 40k reserves, they right now do not need some militia to replace lost manpower. If mobilize, then on the first day, martial law, etc. Not the current half-assed bullshit, thrice announced for what looks to be propaganda.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

There is conspiracy theory floating around that Pashinyan is actually trying to loose the war to get rid of Artsakh and then fully turn to West. Seems like a bunch of tinfoil considering Armenia's geopolitical location. Or that he really is actually quite inept during wartime.

That would be quite Machiavelian indeed. But there is some sense to it : get rid of a geopolitical deadweight, cut the cord from Russia, try to garner as much international political capital and sympathy as possible, and maybe bargain with Georgia for a joined EU-membership bid...

Georgia and Armenia have better mid/long-term chances at an EU-membership than Turkey anyway at this rate...

But I don't know if the Armenians would settle for that kind of "victory" on the Turks/Azeris, plus last I read Pashinyan was not interested in the EU.

[Kellhound]

Current Armenian military losses - 834. 62 more from yesterday, I think there is bunch of those from the failed counterattack.
Azeris are still advancing from the south (most likely trying to cut off whole Karabakh by taking road to Lachin, which is the main supply line and is absolutely critical), nothing in the north and east.
P.S.
Some posters from Greek side should chill as well. Greece was not a fully innocent player in the game about Cyprus. It is just the cold hard truth and is what happens when you have military junta in charge amongst other things.



Papa Wernher would be proud.

Still, more than a year into service. What do you propose they do? Keep them in hangars as they loose more and more each day, or attempt to do at least something? :/
As I said - white elephant syndrome. I bet even if they had all 12 planned (still under question whether they can afford the rest) similar situation would happen anyway.

There is conspiracy theory floating around that Pashinyan is actually trying to loose the war to get rid of Artsakh and then fully turn to West. Seems like a bunch of tinfoil considering Armenia's geopolitical location. Or that he really is actually quite inept during wartime.

All that mobilization at the start? Now that was a bullshit. Armenia has 40k reserves, they right now do not need some militia to replace lost manpower. If mobilize, then on the first day, martial law, etc. Not the current half-assed bullshit, thrice announced for what looks to be propaganda.

Given the small number and total lack of SEAD, they are best used as point defense fighters.