Doing more damage at low levels now

[Ragnarohk]

That's the problem with the new system.

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Then why even have it?

I honestly can't think of good alternatives.

I was thibking about a tutorial mode. You had to finish a long campaign per expansion. So that you knew what happened in each, in order. But it's basically leveling

[bloodwulf]

Why is a low level doing decent damage an issue in PVE content? They are not your enemies, the AI controlled monsters are. You are on a team with the other players, and you should expect them to be able to contribute. Some people want to bitch about everything.

[Nerovar]

dungeon level scaling scales. news at 11

God forbid you can provide a meaningful contribution in a group with someone 40 levels higher than you

This is the new game. The game has to scale your damage because otherwise you couldn't enter instances and groups with more than 3 levels discrepancy. Its not going to go away.

Way to miss the point. The original post isn't even saying that scaling shouldn't be in the game at all. It's just saying that it's flimsily implemented. The idea that you get relatively weaker when you level up should never make it into any RPG. It's completely counterintuitive and undermines the feeling of meaningful character progression. Defending this on the basis that "it's just leveling" is completely and utterly ridiculous.

So the same could be said to you. You are implying that you decrease in power as you level up, while in dungeons.

Do you have your scrolling battle text turned off? Because if we take your statement at it's word, you're already lying. As you level up, taking gear out of the equation for this, you do more damage because you gain more base stats, abilities and passives, talents, the like. You increase in power. If you want to see this in action, take a level 10 Arcane Mage, do a few blasts, then come back at level 30, and you'll visibly see you have increased in power.

As for your statement about them doing the most damage in a dungeon group, while that does seem a bit silly, it's to help them scale better while in a LEVELING dungeon. It's how the scaling system works, for you the low level, you're doing the expected damage of your level, to a mob you are expected to face, and same for the level 50s and 40s in your group, they are (we'll assume the best here) doing what is expected of them to a mob of their level range as well. Without this kind of scaling, having a low level in your group would be a detriment, and lead to a scenario where high level characters would feel inclined to boot the low level one.

This is how it needs to be for the system to work. It's not bad. You INCREASE in power as you level up. Stop misleading people.

Holy fuck this is dishonest. OP clearly described the issue in a way that makes it abundantly clear that he's talking about relative power because that's the only thing that matters in a scenario where scaling systems are in place. It doesn't matter that your battle text tells you that you just crit that NPC for 10k damage on your level 40 character if it's only 1% of the NPC's hp whereas a level 10 character who uses the same spell deals 2% max hp with 50 damage.
This literally makes the level 40 character less powerful in that dungeon.

The issue here is obviously that the scaling systems don't function properly as they place a disproportionate disadvantage on higher level characters if they want to reach the same performance as low level characters when it should be the other way around. Why anyone would even defend this kind of lazy bullshit is beyond me.

Why is a low level doing decent damage an issue in PVE content? They are not your enemies, the AI controlled monsters are. You are on a team with the other players, and you should expect them to be able to contribute. Some people want to bitch about everything.

Great point.

Why not scale everyone to the exact same power level until they hit max level? We're all working together after all.

[Tiev]

I've been doing the headless horseman on my low level toons for experience, and I noticed that my level 10 characters especially always top the meters. Now when you are in a group with high level characters, obviously the numbers are in relation to your own level. I see low numbers, and a level 50 sees high numbers.

But if you look at the percentage of damage done in comparison to the rest of the group, my level 10 characters can blow away level 50's. I just did it on my arcane mage and you just have to do arcane blast and you'll do like 90% of the groups damage. With level 50 characters in the group.

Similarly I have a much easier time healing on low level characters, even though they have less spells available. The spells heal for more, and mana regenerates faster.

I know this is just headless horseman, but I assume this being the case in dungeons from level 10-50 as well. It's obviously the way things scale in dungeons.

And I know this is just leveling dungeons, but still, I don't think that in an MMO level 10 characters should this easily be outperforming level 50 characters. I don't think that as you gain levels and gain more abilities, your performance should become worse.

I agree with you. On the other hand, I don't think that's a big deal for levelling dungeons and would put that "fix" on a very low priority if I were a product owner or project manager for WoW.

[unbound]

And I know this is just leveling dungeons, but still, I don't think that in an MMO level 10 characters should this easily be outperforming level 50 characters. I don't think that as you gain levels and gain more abilities, your performance should become worse.

Blizz has always been terrible about balance. At very low levels, your toons only have a few abilities, so Blizz makes them hit like a truck.

I agree it's kind of frustrating leveling and having to do substantially more work to achieve subpar results, but Blizz really doesn't care that much about the leveling process. They only care about end game. If that bothers you...well, you are playing the wrong MMO.

[bloodwulf]

Great point.

Why not scale everyone to the exact same power level until they hit max level? We're all working together after all.

OP only cited Headless Horseman as an example and that is over in about 2 minutes tops. As others have said, if you are leveling in regular dungeons, 50s typically hard carry. My tank was carrying dps in dungeons the other night helping friends level alts. So likely this is not a truly broken scaling, but instead the early levels only having like one or two spells at the fingertips, and thus scaling is working overtime by boosting the only things available to the character to make sure they stay semi-relevant.

[iperson]

Way to miss the point. The original post isn't even saying that scaling shouldn't be in the game at all. It's just saying that it's flimsily implemented. The idea that you get relatively weaker when you level up should never make it into any RPG. It's completely counterintuitive and undermines the feeling of meaningful character progression. Defending this on the basis that "it's just leveling" is completely and utterly ridiculous.


Holy fuck this is dishonest. OP clearly described the issue in a way that makes it abundantly clear that he's talking about relative power...

Really? So he compared class, gear quality, player ability and came up to a conclusion based on analyzing the data? Where was that in the post? I saw an anecdote and a conclusion "herpy derpy you got worsey"...

Even if the scaling isn't 100% perfect across all item/level thresholds most players don't give a !@#$. You're playing content that literally doesn't matter...

[doodle90]

I would hope so, could you imagine being a warrior with only bloodthirst and it does the same dmg as the warrior with blood thurst, rampage, etc etc.
That arcane mage with only arcane blast runs out of MP SUPER fast because they don't have clearcasting procs and arcane missles. So yes its amazing on the HH boss but in dungeons your dmg balances because of the lack of other tools. Now imagine having a lvl 50 Arcane mage and a lvl 10 arcane mage and their arcane blast does the same dmg....youd want to kick the lvl 10 for slowing you down because he basically has a incomplete kit.

Now imagine the healer with only 1 type of heal healing for the same as the healer with 10 cooldowns and such...

[StillMcfuu]

I repeat. You are actually decreasing in power as you level up and gain more abilities.

The obvious solution to this problem would be to not have level 10's group up with level 50's. They should be doing different content.

Can a level 10 go into a lvl 53 raid?

Also to be more direct to the scaling.

When you are level 10 and you have one ability, all your doing is spamming that 1 ability. That's 100% of your damage potential. Scaling that 100% damage of your potential into a lvl 50 character means you are doing 100% lvl 50 character potential.

Lvl 50s also have multiple other factors working against them, different secondary scaling, ilvl, multiple abilities that have to be used correctly, etc... So while on your scale in outdated content you are capable of topping the meter, the reality is you aren't in current content and overall it means very little. You aren't as powerful as a lvl50 you are simply maximizing your abilities of your level and that proficiency is being scaled to 50. I also doubt that it's showing the same to the 50s, you may be at the top of the meter, but I doubt your DPS is really that high compared to an actual functional player using their pre-patch skills, talents, etc... to maximum efficiency.

[Nerovar]

OP only cited Headless Horseman as an example and that is over in about 2 minutes tops. As others have said, if you are leveling in regular dungeons, 50s typically hard carry. My tank was carrying dps in dungeons the other night helping friends level alts. So likely this is not a truly broken scaling, but instead the early levels only having like one or two spells at the fingertips, and thus scaling is working overtime by boosting the only things available to the character to make sure they stay semi-relevant.

Staying semi-relevant =/= doing more damage than level 50 characters.

Really? So he compared class, gear quality, player ability and came up to a conclusion based on analyzing the data? Where was that in the post? I saw an anecdote and a conclusion "herpy derpy you got worsey"...

Even if the scaling isn't 100% perfect across all item/level thresholds most players don't give a !@#$. You're playing content that literally doesn't matter...

Since you were talking about "analyzing the data" surely you have some rocksolid statistic on hand that proves your claim about "most players not giving a shit".

Nice meme, my dude.

[iperson]

Staying semi-relevant =/= doing more damage than level 50 characters.


Since you were talking about "analyzing the data" surely you have some rocksolid statistic on hand that proves your claim about "most players not giving a shit".

Nice meme, my dude.

You're right, the forums are flooded with complaints about this... stay mad

[Nerovar]

You're right, the forums are flooded with complaints about this... stay mad

I saw an anecdote and a conclusion

Never change.

[Djuntas]

Well I agree OP. You are so OP until like level 35-40. Then it slows down. I figure this was the reason why Skyreach was such a nightmare to pug for me and 2 friends, but the other 5 man we did earlier was not nearly as hard. That skyreach instance could also be highly over-tuned which I think is the case for WOD 5 mans, but it feelt like doing a +15 mythic...at least an easy one like freehold. I was tanking with full bis heirlooms enchanted.

[oblakoff]

Your level 10 couldn't actually outperform the level 50 version of the mob that the level 50 is attacking, it's just due to the underlying scaling mechanics that make it look like you are.

Except this is exactly what is the state of leveling dungeons at the moment. Level - 11-15 outperforms levels 40-44.

[Jujudrood]

So, according to this thread, percentage of overall damage is a better measurement of performance than actual damage/DPS?
What?
The?
What?

Who gives a flying crap that a level 10, when fighting a mob scaled down to level 10, does a % of damage.
What's the actual damage numbers? What's the actual DPS?
No need to answer that, I can answer for you: It's much, much lower than a level 50's DPS, even if they just afk auto-attack.

You don't "get weaker" as you level.
Your frostbolt doesn't go from doing 60 damage at level 10 to doing 50 damage at level 15.
That's not how this works... that's not how any of this works.

[hedren]

I honestly can't think of good alternatives.

How about the way it used to be? When the game was at its peak.

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whats dishonest is your insistence that a lvl 10 scaling to 50 is somehow better.

1. I haven't said that
2. The problem isn't anyone scaling to anyone else, the problem is scaling in general. The problem is that if a level 10 is in a group with a level 50, for some reason the level 10, in some cases, has it a lot easier doing insane amounts of damage. This entire thing is completely backwards.

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So, according to this thread, percentage of overall damage is a better measurement of performance than actual damage/DPS?
What?
The?
What?

But the actual damage is also higher for the level 10 than it is for the level 50.

This is the way it is. Level 10 is in a group with level 50.

The level 10 sees himself doing 100 dps and sees the level 50 do 30 dps. Just as an example. The level 10 player sees his numbers and the numbers for the other players are scaled down to match his numbers.

Level 10 = 100 dps
Levell 50 = 30 dps

Now the level 50 player sees different numbers. He sees his real numbers, and the level 10 numbers are scaled up to match his numbers.

So what he sees is

Level 10 = 10000 dps
Level 50 = 3000 dps


In both cases, the level 10 is way ahead in terms of numbers.

There are several things wrong with this. But the main thing is that a level 10 player, especially when he has less skills available to do his job, should never be stronger than a level 50 player.

The level 10 player isn't doing more damage because he is more skilled. He doesn't make up for the difference in level with more skill. He does more damage because he is level 10. Because the scaling works that way.

[Qnubi]

I can confirm the observations from OP in leveling dungeons as well. In fact, I talked to a group of level 10 boosters that sell boost to level higher level characters through classic dungeons. They lock their level to 10, then you get carried through the dungeon. I was on my level 48 warlock and the two level 10s were both doing 3-4k DPS each, easily outdpsing everyone. I have leveled 1-50 Warlock, 30-50 Paladin and 40-50 druid. The lower level characters are basically always #1 DPS if they know what they are doing (which is not alot since you have 2-3 buttons to press). If the entire group is 10-15ish then it seems to scale normally. The problem is when you pair level 10s with 40+ characters, the game scales in favor of the low levels and gives absurd DPS.

[hedren]

scaling means you grouping is faster and you can do content with anyone of any level, if you just group with your own level then chances are you may not even find ppl to do the content with, how effective your char is doesnt matter until you doing meaninful content at max level anyway.

I know how it was before scaling came to the game and it was fine. You were able to find groups. In fact I don't like the fact the leveling via dungeons is so fast. It's often essentially the fastest way to do it, at least if you get lucky with groups and dungeons, so much so that it has drained the fun out of questing for me. If dungeon queues took an hour, then that means I could fill in that time with questing. And to be honest, I think I'd prefer that.

I also know what it was before dungeonfinder came to the game and it was fine too. Dungeons were actually something special. Something you didn't just chainrun. They were the culmination of the story in a zone and you did them until you had all the quests done or outleveled them. And even heroic dungeons weren't something you'd chainrun, because you had an ID and it took a while to find people. Even Wrath dungeons in the beginning took a while to clear.

[Zulbendon]

I like to be powerful as low level

[hedren]

I can confirm the observations from OP in leveling dungeons as well. In fact, I talked to a group of level 10 boosters that sell boost to level higher level characters through classic dungeons. They lock their level to 10, then you get carried through the dungeon. I was on my level 48 warlock and the two level 10s were both doing 3-4k DPS each, easily outdpsing everyone. I have leveled 1-50 Warlock, 30-50 Paladin and 40-50 druid. The lower level characters are basically always #1 DPS if they know what they are doing (which is not alot since you have 2-3 buttons to press). If the entire group is 10-15ish then it seems to scale normally. The problem is when you pair level 10s with 40+ characters, the game scales in favor of the low levels and gives absurd DPS.

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm trying to say here.

I assume it has something to do with certain abilties being more powerful at lower levels to make it easier for low level players. Like heals at low levels often heal you completely full. My level 1 shaman was one-hitting things with lightning bolt. You grow in level and it becomes less powerful. I think we all have seen that when leveling up characters. It's like mana and health regeneration being faster at lower levels.