[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Gorsameth]

Sounds like simply hashing out the text of the bits that they agree on so that it is ready incase of a breakthrough on the trouble issues but absolutely nothing about how the actual trouble issues will be resolved.

[Demolitia]

Sounds like simply hashing out the text of the bits that they agree on so that it is ready incase of a breakthrough on the trouble issues but absolutely nothing about how the actual trouble issues will be resolved.

Of course not, and I'm fairly certain the EC legal team already have a pretty comprehensive draft on what was already agreed, but I guess to the EU the issues of governance and oversight, as well as the sticking points were the most complicated parts, so there's no point working on a legal text without agreeing on the rest. And they didn't want a legal half baked draft to risk being used or leaked or weaponised by the UK as done deal.

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Three cheers for Brexit, heh?
https://www.businessinsider.com/brex...on-2020-10?amp

[arandomuser]

since we know brexit was literally only about immigration
cant they just reinstate EU membership but then implement boris immigration system he wants?
seems like all of the negative stuff was just to limit immigrants which they can probably do while in EU and not have the economic consequences

[Slant]

since we know brexit was literally only about immigration
cant they just reinstate EU membership but then implement boris immigration system he wants?
seems like all of the negative stuff was just to limit immigrants which they can probably do while in EU and not have the economic consequences

This is funny, because the UK was not in Schengen and always could and did control their immigration on a national basis. What's funnier is that the only way to get what the UK demands in these negotiations is to become a member of the EU with the exceptions the UK had... let that sink in for a minute.

[Acidbaron]

since we know brexit was literally only about immigration
cant they just reinstate EU membership but then implement boris immigration system he wants?
seems like all of the negative stuff was just to limit immigrants which they can probably do while in EU and not have the economic consequences

More than immigration, however i never could and still cannot understand them rejecting the idea to carry identification on them, not needing this was( still is?) a big drive for at least African refugees to immigrate there.

As for immigrants, it is worth noting that they need immigrants for their economy and also for their healthcare industry specifically central to eastern Europeans.
(Take note that it was Blair that if i am not mistaken even spearheaded the initiative to include these nations in the Union to begin with, if you want to see how absurd the political landscape changes in the UK every cycle and why their removal even by their own hand is in the long term a good thing for a consistent and growing political union, as a quick side note)

I do understand the issue of social dumping and i also understand the Central and Eastern European nations wanting to keep it, hence progress is made where neither side is completely happy with but that's what happens in the world of compromise and "adult politics".

In addition if you look at the media landscape the EU has been the scapegoat for a long list of things that issues of a domestic nature. Politic failures? It's the EU. Budget failings? It's the EU. NHS struggling? It's the EU. Keep this up for a decade and more and you create a generation of people bombarded with negative EU news that more often than not do not even know what the EU actually is (this is due to the EU for good reason not able to promote and inject themselves in national election cycles, so it's the foreign enemy to rally against that can't fight back but this has changed somewhat).


So if you say it's just about immigration, i will agree that racism has been -a reason- for several but it's bigger than just that.


PS: Scotland and Ireland you are welcome to rejoin us as soon as possible once you are able to break free from the chains of Westminster.

[ranzino]

......

PS: Scotland and Ireland you are welcome to rejoin us as soon as possible once you are able to break free from the chains of Westminster.

NI may emerge more smoothly than Scotland. but the breakup of UK will be a seismic event and it will hurt a lot

[Demolitia]

since we know brexit was literally only about immigration
cant they just reinstate EU membership but then implement boris immigration system he wants?
seems like all of the negative stuff was just to limit immigrants which they can probably do while in EU and not have the economic consequences

The UK got big additional concessions on top of the exceptions they already enjoyed right before the referendum. On migration and the possibility to opt out of future EU projects as they see fit. But they were conditional to Cameron not fucking up the referendum, which he did.
There's not much we can do to make them feel special and welcome. When they decided the leave the EU, our relationship could only go downhill.

[Acidbaron]

NI may emerge more smoothly than Scotland. but the breakup of UK will be a seismic event and it will hurt a lot

Are you speaking of Scotland and Ireland in their current situation or in a situation post hard brexit, assuming you are speaking of the economic repercussions here.

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The UK got big additional concessions on top of the exceptions they already enjoyed right before the referendum. On migration and the possibility to opt out of future EU projects as they see fit. But they were conditional to Cameron not fucking up the referendum, which he did.
There's not much we can do to make them feel special and welcome. When they decided the leave the EU, our relationship could only go downhill.

This was always in my opinion a time bomb, even if the brexit did not happen in the future these benefits would have come around to bite us when nations like Poland grow their economic engine and start demanding the same benefits. Perhaps the brexit saved us from something far more troublesome in the future.

[ranzino]

Are you speaking of Scotland and Ireland in their current situation or in a situation post hard brexit, assuming you are speaking of the economic repercussions here.

hard brexit will drive those 2 trains into warpspeed imho, but on the other hand there is no "friendly" opportunity left as they cannot emerge from UK within the next 68 days. soft or hard, both parts of UK will suffer.
obviously for NI the way back into EU is much shorter; they would just join a standing member like eastern germany became part of the old EEC by reunification with west germany. but scotland will have to file the usual applications as if they never were in EU and such a path takes years WHILE outside of EU whole time.

[Demolitia]

Are you speaking of Scotland and Ireland in their current situation or in a situation post hard brexit, assuming you are speaking of the economic repercussions here.

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This was always in my opinion a time bomb, even if the brexit did not happen in the future these benefits would have come around to bite us when nations like Poland grow their economic engine and start demanding the same benefits. Perhaps the brexit saved us from something far more troublesome in the future.

Quite frankly I was never too worried about that. Poland kept its currency and seems to do whatever the fuck it wants anyway. There is a lot of work to change Europe's governance structure, chiefly among them the dire need to remove unanimous council decisions for most stuff. It will come, slowly, and small exceptions will vanish slowly as economies catch up and threat for outside blocks grows, I think.

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hard brexit will drive those 2 trains into warpspeed imho, but on the other hand there is no "friendly" opportunity left as they cannot emerge from UK within the next 68 days. soft or hard, both parts of UK will suffer.
obviously for NI the way back into EU is much shorter; they would just join a standing member like eastern germany became part of the old EEC by reunification with west germany. but scotland will have to file the usual applications as if they never were in EU and such a path takes years WHILE outside of EU whole time.

Seeing the clusterfuck that is the irish border, I suspect Scotland will think twice before leaving Great Britain.

[ranzino]

Seeing the clusterfuck that is the irish border, I suspect Scotland will think twice before leaving Great Britain.

unless england and scotland fall back into feuds like those centuries ago, it should work. to avoid the terrorism in ireland is paramount

[Slant]

PS: Scotland and ireland Northern Ireland you are welcome to rejoin us as soon as possible once you are able to break free from the chains of Westminster.

Fixed that for you. That's kind of an important distinction.

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[...]but scotland will have to file the usual applications as if they never were in EU and such a path takes years WHILE outside of EU whole time.

The EU has always maintained that Scotland would be fasttracked through the process. Years? Maybe, but not more than 1-2. They basically already fulfill all EU conditions out of the gate. Scotland would be busier dealing with the break from England than they would be preparing for EU membership. And this is true knowing Scotland basically having existing democratic structures in place, so their break from England would be incredibly easy to accomplish. They would get into the EU so fast, all Eastern European countries (and Turkey) would start freaking out why they had to jump through all those hoops (and in the case of Turkey, still won't get in).

[zealo]

Seeing the clusterfuck that is the irish border, I suspect Scotland will think twice before leaving Great Britain.

Doubtful the Scottish border would be anywhere nears troublesome as the Irish one in such a situation. The primary issue causing such a headache for Brexit isn't the economic impacts of a hard border, but the recent history of violence over it in NI.

[Demolitia]

Doubtful the Scottish border would be anywhere nears troublesome as the Irish one in such a situation. The primary issue causing such a headache for Brexit isn't the economic impacts of a hard border, but the recent history of violence over it in NI.

The divorce from the UK will be as complicated, if not more. How many scots live and work in england, and the other way around, or commute everyday. The irish troubles are a big thing to avoid, but it is limited to one island.

[tehealadin]

This is funny, because the UK was not in Schengen and always could and did control their immigration on a national basis. What's funnier is that the only way to get what the UK demands in these negotiations is to become a member of the EU with the exceptions the UK had... let that sink in for a minute.

One might argue that it was debatable if the UK was ever really part of the EU in the first place, it certainly wasn't in, in the same way that most other countries are.

I just wish this would be over with. I don't feel that we can do anything about this current mob of incompetents running the country while this drags on. As long as the job of sticking it to J. Foreigner remains, too many are willing to tolerate just about anything domestically. My hope is that once Gerry has been given a bloody nose (or at least spun as such) and the Poles know what is what, more people will wake up to the shitshow occupying number 10.

[Slant]

One might argue that it was debatable if the UK was ever really part of the EU in the first place, it certainly wasn't in, in the same way that most other countries are.

I just wish this would be over with. I don't feel that we can do anything about this current mob of incompetents running the country while this drags on. As long as the job of sticking it to J. Foreigner remains, too many are willing to tolerate just about anything domestically. My hope is that once Gerry has been given a bloody nose (or at least spun as such) and the Poles know what is what, more people will wake up to the shitshow occupying number 10.

LOL, nah man... you'll find out why England kept Wales and Scotland around for so long. There's always someone more you can blame. And if it's not the Scottish or the Welsh, it'll be the Northerners or the Londoners... or the Eastenders and then Westenders. As a nation, if you're not good at picking up responsibility for your own action, there's never a lack of scapegoats if you look hard enough. And if push comes to shove, that pesky Mr. Wilkens from across the street...

[Gorsameth]

Before the Poles came to take their jobs it was the Irish after all.

[tehealadin]

This is true. Though I think it is the Muslims who are next. Well, they were kind of in their sights anyway. I always remember the news interviewing people in the street after the vote and one guy saying he voted to leave because of the Muslims. When they find out that leaving the EU will do nothing to stop Muslim immigration, I think things will ramp up.

[Demolitia]

One might argue that it was debatable if the UK was ever really part of the EU in the first place, it certainly wasn't in, in the same way that most other countries are.

I just wish this would be over with. I don't feel that we can do anything about this current mob of incompetents running the country while this drags on. As long as the job of sticking it to J. Foreigner remains, too many are willing to tolerate just about anything domestically. My hope is that once Gerry has been given a bloody nose (or at least spun as such) and the Poles know what is what, more people will wake up to the shitshow occupying number 10.

The UK is an island and has always felt different from the rest of the continent. The problem is that the last 15 years have made it clear that the EU has a role to play in many fields that were taboo before. Have banking and securities market authorities, or a single resolution mechanism to bail out banks was unspeakable not so long ago. Having the EU intervene in asylum seeker and external migration issues was unheard of. Now we need the EU will be able to take on debt, effectively doubling its spendings while there was a yearly bickering over a few millions. Which comes together with the strengthening of the european public prosecutor's office to enable better oversight of such spendings.
I think we can safely say the EU is moving on, UK in it or not.

[Blayze]

The UK is an island and has always felt different from the rest of the continent. The problem is that the last 15 years have made it clear that the EU has a role to play in many fields that were taboo before. Have banking and securities market authorities, or a single resolution mechanism to bail out banks was unspeakable not so long ago. Having the EU intervene in asylum seeker and external migration issues was unheard of. Now we need the EU will be able to take on debt, effectively doubling its spendings while there was a yearly bickering over a few millions. Which comes together with the strengthening of the european public prosecutor's office to enable better oversight of such spendings.
I think we can safely say the EU is moving on, UK in it or not.

I've got no evidence for this, but I'm pretty sure the Tories have been trying to game the EU regeneration fund, given they get more money to rebuild shitholes the more shitholes they create, and that is PRECISELY the sort of thing the Tories would do--precisely the sort of policy their Europhiles and Eurosceptics can unite on.

Get ready for even more shitholes, as the rich won't want to take a single step backwards for their own lifestyles...