Teldrassil Knowledge

[NorthernDragon]

How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her

[VinceVega]

How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her

The coup was organized by a exiled criminal (Saurfang) and a bit of the alliance and they did not muster enough to really overthrow her. The only reason Sylvannas is not in control of the horde right now is her temper.
Garrosh was basically shunned by nearly everyone of the horde except a few goblins and many orcs.
She did have the full loyalty of nearly everyone except a few fringe groups with the faction leaders.

What she did was more than wrong. But nobody really cared about it. If the Tauren and Bloodelves would have left the horde at that point i don't think the alliance would not have takem them in. With conditions buts still.

This was just way to over the top even for Sylvannas. ALso why not f up the exodar... not used by anyone anyway.... Loved that tree...

[Lorgar Aurelian]

While the horde didn’t know about it before hand they completely supported her after it was done with only saurfang leaving because of it.

Baine and his small following only acted up after sylvanas started acting against the horde and its ideals and even then they were a minority of horde members.

[NorthernDragon]

While the horde didn’t know about it before hand they completely supported her after it was done with only saurfang leaving because of it.

Baine and his small following only acted up after sylvanas started acting against the horde and its ideals and even then they were a minority of horde members.

Unfortunately this is more a result of bad writing because realistically the Horde would've definitely kicked up a fuss especially after the events of Hellscream. I think that's why a lot of Horde players were disappointed with BfA. I know I was because Teldrassil was really a WTF moment

[Super Dickmann]

The majority of the Horde supported Sylvanas until she told them some mean words and flew off. No one brought up the tree except Saurfang right after and it wasn't enough to get him to leave, he left over the concept of using Undercity as a trap.

[Valandale]

I don't even think it's that people think the horde knew, it's that it happened, and so much of the horde STILL stuck by her after that. The Blood Elves for all their rivalry against night elves, should scarcely want to do what was done to them on anyone else, especially with their faceturn of following the Light and being generally much nicer than TBC. The Nightborne JUST got out of a near extinction event and seem to be just fine with doing it to the NEs ostensibly because Tyrande was sus of them because of what they did during the last legion invasion; but she STILL HELPED. The Tauren view the Night Elves favorably and corrupt tree or not, still had no reason to support such an atrocity. So she might have the loyalty of the Forsaken, Orcs and Trolls afterwards, but so many of the other horde factions should not have followed suit after this and it was not shown well if it was acknowledged.

[NorthernDragon]

I don't even think it's that people think the horde knew, it's that it happened, and so much of the horde STILL stuck by her after that. The Blood Elves for all their rivalry against night elves, should scarcely want to do what was done to them on anyone else, especially with their faceturn of following the Light and being generally much nicer than TBC. The Nightborne JUST got out of a near extinction event and seem to be just fine with doing it to the NEs ostensibly because Tyrande was sus of them because of what they did during the last legion invasion; but she STILL HELPED. The Tauren view the Night Elves favorably and corrupt tree or not, still had no reason to support such an atrocity. So she might have the loyalty of the Forsaken, Orcs and Trolls afterwards, but so many of the other horde factions should not have followed suit after this and it was not shown well if it was acknowledged.

I completely agree, it flew in the face of consistent logical writing

[Baneto]

Its a result of bad writing for sure, they did it cause they wanted a Garrosh 2.0 so Horde could be bad again.

[tommyhil622]

The majority of the Horde supported Sylvanas until she told them some mean words and flew off. No one brought up the tree except Saurfang right after and it wasn't enough to get him to leave, he left over the concept of using Undercity as a trap.

Eh, that's an egregious oversimplification of what occurred there.

[ravenmoon]

How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her

I didn't realise Alliance players believed the horde knew Sylvnaas was planning on burning Teldrassil. Everyone who followed the story and played the pre-expansion event knows this is not the case.

I've not heard it.

[DuleRa]

Let us also mention everyone seemed just fine on the Horde after Undercity was scrapped in a half assed plot to take down the boy king that she just yoinked a short while later.

[Super Dickmann]

Eh, that's an egregious oversimplification of what occurred there.

I skipped the part where he was tempted to fight for Memeboi but then decided that he and everyone else there was acceptable collateral on the off-chance Anduin also took out Sylvanas in the process, but past that, no. There was no Darkspear Rebellion style opposition to Sylvanas, we're both shown and told the scope of the rebel faction is small time this time around and that they must focus not on defeating her but having others learn she doesn't really care, which they ultimately do.

@DuleRa

Nuking the city to not let it get captured after evacuating everyone isn't really beyond the pale. Less so how orcs and tauren don't care about the defilement of their war dead when that was something the orcs, while high on fel, didn't take even from Gul'dan. That remains the absolute dumbest moment in that sequence when it comes to Horde reaction.

[loras]

How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her

With all due respect, that doesn't matter even a bit.
You bowed down to the Dark Lady, she made decisions for you, held responsibility for them - but her holding that responsibility is yours in turn, and let's be real: It took the alliance for the "horde" to see "its" honor again; the horde has had very little in the way of redeeming qualities during BfA (which i consider poor writing given all that's happened in expansions and games prior, but that doesn't change what was written).

This might surprise you but people genuinely do not let you get away unpunished by exclaiming "I didn't know!", you can ask the real life Germans all about it.
(though for the record: I am not in favor of instilling shame for something your ancestors did, to me it would suffice to have you not forget it and the consequences it had)

[Eggroll]

What irks me is that they kept the Lordaeron scenario but scrapped the Burning of Teldrassil scenario.

I can find no logical reason for that.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think the Horde was aware of what happened at Teldrassil but that wasn't communicated or presented as well as it could of been that and Blizz didn't want to condemn the playerbase that was loyal to sylvanas(...I get it but atrocities are still atrocities no matter what).

[tommyhil622]

I skipped the part where he was tempted to fight for Memeboi but then decided that he and everyone else there was acceptable collateral on the off-chance Anduin also took out Sylvanas in the process, but past that, no. There was no Darkspear Rebellion style opposition to Sylvanas, we're both shown and told the scope of the rebel faction is small time this time around and that they must focus not on defeating her but having others learn she doesn't really care, which they ultimately do.

A significant portion of those that were opposed to Slyvannas were at the gates of Orgrimmar behind Suarfang Thrall and others noted by the red flags. Sure they were in the minority but still significant.

Also its worthy to note that not everyone had the courage to Join forces with the Rebellion. Just because you are not at the gates of the Orgrimmar doesn't mean that you aren't opposed to Slyvannas. After Slyvannas actions, the rest drew the courage to realize that they were on the wrong side. And after she notably screamed that the horde is nothing? that's not insignificant, that's the last straw... The idea of the Horde is what the majority of those behind the gate so of Orgrimmar believed in. Including the Forsaken holding the the banners next to Slyvannas.

Now could have it been done better, absolutely.

[Thage]

The whole Fourth War as a storyline relied on everyone involved being lobotomized. In a more logical storyline, Anduin would have courted the more moderate members of the Horde, including the tauren, the pandaren, the Nightborne, the blood elves, the Darkspears, and those orcs who were true believers in Thrall's vision for a better Horde, into defecting. In many of these cases he has existing friendly, or at least amicable, ties with leadership and combined efforts at propaganda would have made defection palatable to the civilians and military, barring holdouts like the Sunreavers who have personal grudges to settle that would preclude defecting. Varian, far from the best diplomat even after being fixed in Wolfheart, was able to get Lor'themar seriously considering defection.

Someone like Anduin who (for better or worse) has been shown to have a natural gift for diplomacy going in person to talk with Lor'themar, especially after Sylvanas's actions at the Undercity (he'd gone after Sylvanas before for threatening to raise his people as mindless undead shock troops; there's no reason to assume she didn't at the Undercity), would have had at least a moderate chance of successfully wooing him away, moreso as the war dragged on and began exhausting both factions' armies to the point civilian conscripts were next in line at a point in the war where the Alliance was handily winning, a situation made even more dire when Sylvanas threw everyone to the subaquatic wolves in Nazjatar--which should have proved Lor'themar's breaking point in this hypothetical where characters are written as people and not as mouthpieces for whatever plotline Blizzard wants to shove into the spotlight any given week.

Yes, Lor'themar dismissed defection out of hand when Alleria went to talk with him, but that's before Sylvanas threw his people into a meat-grinder war and he ended up at the bottom of the ocean while Nathanos fucked off to gods-know-where. The last time a Warchief threw his people into a meat grinder, it took the Purge of Dalaran to scuttle talks. Considering Lor'themar opted to put grudges aside in the canon timeline, his personal feelings on the matter would be set aside in favor of getting out from an omnicidal lunatic's yoke.

If Anduin had managed to convince all but the diehard partisans to defect to the Alliance, the Fourth War probably would have ended with the Horde's full annexation into the Alliance, especially once Sylvanas outed herself during the mak'gora with Saurfang (which there's no reason to think wouldn't still have happened, since that was apparently his plan the whole time once Anduin finally got the ball rolling). But just like in Mists of Pandaria, everyone involved instead chooses the stupidest responses possible to everything in order to drive conflict, taking turns holding the idiot ball just long enough for Sylvanas's plans to suffer no real material setbacks (other than having her timetable moved forward, which she treats as a minor inconvenience rather than a major problem).

[qwerty123456]

The Horde were completely ok with wiping out every single Night Elf city and settlement on the way to Teldrassil you really think they would give a shit about burning a Tree with multiple cities in it?

[NorthernDragon]

I think the Horde was aware of what happened at Teldrassil but that wasn't communicated or presented as well as it could of been that and Blizz didn't want to condemn the playerbase that was loyal to sylvanas(...I get it but atrocities are still atrocities no matter what).

They knew afterwards but Saurfang was definitely unaware of the burning plan

[loras]

Honestly this thread makes me a bit sad about the way things went, given how there are so many ways even just relatively minor changes to the story would have made the whole make so much more sense.
BfA really is that expansion that i wanted to love as i really loved its premise and see so much potential in the gameplay concepts it tried - that it has fallen so flat on almost all fronts for me (it remains opinion!) is just... saddening.