Teldrassil Knowledge

[NorthernDragon]

The Horde were completely ok with wiping out every single Night Elf city and settlement on the way to Teldrassil you really think they would give a shit about burning a Tree with multiple cities in it?

Because it's a World Tree and we literally spent an expansion preventing the burning of a World Tree a few years ago.

[qwerty123456]

Because it's a World Tree and we literally spent an expansion preventing the burning of a World Tree a few years ago.

And? AT this point in the story the Horde is all on board for what ever Sylvanas does. They didn't even bat an eye when she killed her own people and raised them.

[Super Dickmann]

A significant portion of those that were opposed to Slyvannas were at the gates of Orgrimmar behind Suarfang Thrall and others noted by the red flags. Sure they were in the minority but still significant.

Also its worthy to note that not everyone had the courage to Join forces with the Rebellion. Just because you are not at the gates of the Orgrimmar doesn't mean that you aren't opposed to Slyvannas. After Slyvannas actions, the rest drew the courage to realize that they were on the wrong side. And after she notably screamed that the horde is nothing? that's not insignificant, that's the last straw... The idea of the Horde is what the majority of those behind the gate so of Orgrimmar believed in. Including the Forsaken holding the the banners next to Slyvannas.

Now could have it been done better, absolutely.

Oh, there was a rebel constituency, no doubt about that, it was just smaller than the loyalist one and it materialized a fair deal later than Teldrassil. Indeed, we don't know how much of their reaction was based on Teldrassil. Your take on why the turn is the canon one, but that's precisely the point - we hear from NPCs before the siege that they think that what Sylvanas is doing is for the Horde and to win the war, so her actions are justifiable in light of giving them the final victory. They ditch her because she ditches them. What they don't do is fight against her, nor are they oppressed into supporting her. When you beat Eitrigg to a pulp and drag him in chains across the streets, the people cheer and throw fruit at him.

There's a story here where the Horde is intimidated by the thought of the Alliance's reprisal and Sylvanas rather than oppressing them limits information intake to keep them fighting with the thought that if they don't, the Alliance will wipe them out given what happened at Teldrassil. In that kind of scenario you could frame things like Derek and the Baine bit with Jaina as helping lift that impression. The game sometimes flirts with this idea, but it doesn't go anywhere and the Alliance is so transparently completely benevolent and the Horde is so kill-happy that there's no way to sell it.

[Maljinwo]

MoP-WoD: Finally. We are free of a maniacal genocidal Warchief

Legion: Hey cool, a maniacal genocidal warchief


10/10 writing

[vilememory]

It would have been better if Alliance attacked first, then Sylvannas overreacted by not only invading Ashenvale but burning the World Tree down. Make it so Horde rebels as she goes to eleven after each battle with the Alliance. But nope, Horde has to be hit with the villain bat yet again. Going to be fun to see how they turn the Horde evil again halfway through Shadowlands, because yeah now seems like a great time to start up the Fifth War!

[NorthernDragon]

And? AT this point in the story the Horde is all on board for what ever Sylvanas does. They didn't even bat an eye when she killed her own people and raised them.

Because of bad writing

Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Blood Elves and Pandaren would definitely be furious to the point of ousting but because of writing we're left with nonsensical obedience

[Mungho]

It would have been better if Alliance attacked first, then Sylvannas overreacted by not only invading Ashenvale but burning the World Tree down. Make it so Horde rebels as she goes to eleven after each battle with the Alliance. But nope, Horde has to be hit with the villain bat yet again. Going to be fun to see how they turn the Horde evil again halfway through Shadowlands, because yeah now seems like a great time to start up the Fifth War!

No, no, SL is the 'breather' expansion. They've already set up the Horde to start the war again in the expansion after SL with Gey'arah wishing to slaughter all draenei and Talanji wishing vengeance for her father.

[A Chozo]

Not even Nathanos knew. He was clearly taken by surprise too.

I wonder if Blizzard will ever explore the regret he sometimes felt.

[Niter]

To be frank, Blizzard can't seem to be able to tell a coherent story. Most of it doesn't even make sense.

Coming to think of it, burning Teldrassil would be like burning an entire ISLAND that is very very tall. The place was huge, much larger in lore, able to support a big landmass full of towns and settlements. It was only a tree in name.

Blizzard made catapults shoot very far, have extremely powerful fires (it would've made more sense to have the tree collapse by shock, not consumed by fire...) that could reach all the way up to the top.

Nothing made sense. It was just another sad plot device to have Sylvanas bring us to the Shadowlands.

[Verdugo]

I wonder if Blizzard will ever explore the regret he sometimes felt.

I dont think ANYONE gives a fuck about his feelings.

[Accendor]

How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her

1. Nobody claims the horde in general knew before the other was given
2. They followed the order without questions
3. They enjoyed the the act and took pride in it
4. They stood with Sylvanas till the very end, after committing even more atrocities (see Brennendam massacre)

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Not even Nathanos knew. He was clearly taken by surprise too.

I wonder if Blizzard will ever explore the regret he sometimes felt.

So far it seems thats not a case I mean considering Nathanos scoffing at both factions at this point. It would of been better if he started to doubt his lover. IMO anyways

[Soulwind]

I completely agree, it flew in the face of consistent logical writing

No, no, it's all genius writing to divide the playerbase. See, Alliance players think the Horde was villanous without consequences, while Horde players think the story was silly and choose to ignore it even happened, two completely different, yet valid, points of view, which is what grey morality is all about.

The fact that we're talking about it also proves that we're passionate about the story, which obviously means it's a great story that can only be rivaled by the brilliant writing of GoT's ending.

[Thage]

No, no, it's all genius writing to divide the playerbase. See, Alliance players think the Horde was villanous without consequences, while Horde players think the story was silly and choose to ignore it even happened, two completely different, yet valid, points of view, which is what grey morality is all about.

The fact that we're talking about it also proves that we're passionate about the story, which obviously means it's a great story that can only be rivaled by the brilliant writing of GoT's ending.

Fuck me running that answers an uncomfortably-comprehensive amount of questions I had regarding where the hell the lore team gets their influence from these days.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Fuck me running that answers an uncomfortably-comprehensive amount of questions I had regarding where the hell the lore team gets their influence from these days.

Opinions and all that. He's entitled to it.

[Thage]

Opinions and all that. He's entitled to it.

I never said he's not, but it provides good context for where he's getting his inspiration from, which in turn provides context for the trash fire that is the "morally grey" faction war plotline that's devolved into seeing who can come up with the biggest atrocity to sweep under the rug.

[Tarba]

While the horde didn’t know about it before hand they completely supported her after it was done with only saurfang leaving because of it.

Baine and his small following only acted up after sylvanas started acting against the horde and its ideals and even then they were a minority of horde members.

Nah even Saurfang didn't leave because of the burning. He left because Sylvanas didn't want horde soldiers to die, and he thought that was dishonorable. At least he stood for his belief and joined officially the alliance, unlike Baine who sacrifices horde soldiers every now and then but stay in the horde.

[tommyhil622]

It really isn't.

Tell me that cinematic tells us Sylvanas is against us if she didn't basically scream "FUCK THE HORDE" at the end. She won. She's still Warchief. Saurfang's 'ideals' speech and last stand did nothing. The Horde WOULD have been hers.

Literally, the entire rebellion was doomed if not for Sylvanas giving the Horde the literal middle finger and then realizing "oh, wait, everyone's watching"

Well that's an assumption. We don't know what actually would have occurred at that point. I can see the possibility of the other half of people who didn't like Sylvannas's actions and joining the rebel side. I can also see a possibility where they refuse to kill their own brother's and sisters and stand down.

[qwerty123456]

Because of bad writing

Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Blood Elves and Pandaren would definitely be furious to the point of ousting but because of writing we're left with nonsensical obedience

Maybe its bad writing or maybe its because many of the Horde players (not all as I don't) constantly want war with the Alliance. You can even see it in the forums here where they claim the best writing is the faction conflict but cry when the horde are made the bad guys and then complain that the faction conflict writing is also bad but only because Blizzard can't write a "real" faction conflict what ever that means.

Also if the Horde has a history of not learning from their past mistakes and continually supporting genocidal monsters is it really bad writing or just the Horde being themselves?

[Soulwind]

Maybe its bad writing or maybe its because many of the Horde players (not all as I don't) constantly want war with the Alliance. You can even see it in the forums here where they claim the best writing is the faction conflict but cry when the horde are made the bad guys and then complain that the faction conflict writing is also bad but only because Blizzard can't write a "real" faction conflict what ever that means.

Also if the Horde has a history of not learning from their past mistakes and continually supporting genocidal monsters is it really bad writing or just the Horde being themselves?

In a world with consequences, that doesn't have to go back to a permanent status quo like WoW, one could have real conflicts in which both sides have justifiable reasons to fight each other. Azerite was not a bad reason to fight over a dangerous resource that neither side wanted the other to have, I'll admit.

But of course, conflicts over specific needs always come to an end, and someone has to win, which means someone has to lose. People get killed, places get conquered or destroyed, and the balance of power shifts. WoW can't have any of that, so all wars end in a truce, and any loses are immediately ignored since both sides always have all the resources and armies they need for the next conflict (aka expansion). Players lost Teldrassil and Undercity (or not), but that won't have an effect on the amount of night elves and forsaken soldiers that will appear in the future.

Which is why coming together against a greater foe, who can actually lose, is the only kind of story that works. That is, until you need to bring that villain back, and undo their defeat, of course.