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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    Yeah, im sure letting kids teach themselves will go over well. I heard they are great at it, who needs teachers. A street orphan and the kid of a billionare have the same chances!
    Some people can do that.

    And some people on internet are excellent teachers, much better then the ones they could get locally.

    If you allow people to teach themselves then as long as you provide relevant tests of their competence (which is not "spent X years in university") there shouldn't be any real problems with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    And what you think is fundamentally incorrect because it's attempting to reduce a systemic problem to a function of individual successes or failings (as usual).

    The current problems with for-pay education are not going to resolve themselves by "allowing alternative venues of education" because it ignores the market incentives keeping the system of for-pay education in place as the standard - unless those incentives are addressed, it's not going to magically go away.
    As far as i see you're wrong. The market incentives for alternatives are already there, at least in some areas (as shown by Lambda).

    Which incentives do you think are in play that allow universities to act as gatekeepers that should be addressed?

    Healthcare, justice, and education are three things that should be provided to citizens and residents of the state as a matter of right because they correspond directly to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness respectively.
    Noone disputes that; education, justice, and healthcare being free isn't going to solve systemic problems either though (as shown by Russia).

  2. #162
    If a country's secondary (high school) school system is so broken and not adequate for preparing your students, that's you're advocating for outside methods of preparing them for university, that's a fundamental problem with your education system.

    And if the students are unable to engage in that system because of outside societal problems.......guess what, you have a problem in society.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Without some kind of proof that you know what you're doing or talking about, like a college or university degree or a certification, or you have some kind of experience in the field, companies won't hire you.
    There are job interviews for that.

    If you want some pre-filtering then i'd prefer "certification for everything" to "degree for everything".

    "Free" education might be able to teach you the same things you can learn through a college, university or certification program but with no way to prove you did it, it's worthless. That proof is what costs money, and is absolutely worth it.
    I'm more of "value in knowledge" rather then "value in piece of paper" guy.

    Also, I'm sure you noticed, that the link you provided isn't "free" education they just won't charge you until after you're hired, or so the headline says.
    Yes, that's the incentive for institution to teach what companies actually need rather then what lecturer educational institution has at hand.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    There are job interviews for that.
    You won't even get to the interview if you don't have some kind of credential or experience to reference on your resume. Companies aren't going to interview everybody who says, I learned it myself on the internet. And if you think they will, you're delusional.

    If you want some pre-filtering then i'd prefer "certification for everything" to "degree for everything".
    Certifications cost money.

    I'm more of "value in knowledge" rather then "value in piece of paper" guy.
    As are everybody else, but that "piece of paper" is what proves you have the knowledge.

    Yes, that's the incentive for institution to teach what companies actually need rather then what lecturer educational institution has at hand.
    Only point is, it's not free.

  5. #165
    https://www.engadget.com/uber-driver...194405188.html

    And Uber is apparently harassing their drivers with in-app pop-ups to try to coerce them into voting for Prop 22.

    I mean, even if I didn't have much of an understanding of it I'd be against it purely based on how many fucking "Vote Yes on 22" ads I've see. That's ignoring shit like the fact that the ballot measure is functionally permanent and cannot be repealed if passed. How? Because most measures require a 2/3 majority to reverse. It's a high bar, but it's possible.

    Prop 22 requires a 7/8 majority to overturn, or around 88% of the vote. That's absolutely impossible to get for anything, and proof of the bad-faith and greed of the gig companies as they attempt to continue to exploit a vulnerable workforce.

  6. #166
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Some people can do that.

    And some people on internet are excellent teachers, much better then the ones they could get locally.

    If you allow people to teach themselves then as long as you provide relevant tests of their competence (which is not "spent X years in university") there shouldn't be any real problems with that.
    So we now have enough teachers on the internet willing to teach kids for free? What fairy tail world are you from. And how are street orphans supposed to get internet? How are you going to expect kids to just do any of this without anybody watching over them in real life? How you expect people to get the money to get those diplomas if they don't have the funds for it?


    This has so many holes i'm really starting to believe you actually have no idea how life works for anybody who is poor. Its lovely that your parents provided everything you needed, but that is not how it works for most who are born poor. You need an eduction to function in modern society, no way around it.


    Where do you think kids learn to read? Learn Math?
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2020-10-22 at 08:33 PM.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You won't even get to the interview if you don't have some kind of credential or experience to reference on your resume. Companies aren't going to interview everybody who says, I learned it myself on the internet. And if you think they will, you're delusional.
    No need to say "learned on the internet", just say you got experience with whatever is needed. Then prove that you do.

    And in some cases what you need to get actual "experience" is either free or quite low cost.

    Certifications cost money.
    I'd think it is less then full university course either way.

    As are everybody else, but that "piece of paper" is what proves you have the knowledge.
    Ability to apply what you learned proves that you have knowledge, and nothing else.

    Only point is, it's not free.
    Semantics. Technically nothing is free as you at the very least have to spend time to learn it - and you could use that time to make money instead.

    It is free as a learning process. They start to get paid when they get one who learned actual job using what they taught.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    So we now have enough teachers on the internet willing to teach kids for free?
    Fair amount of lectures by good ones is available on various topics for free, yes.

    What fairy tail world are you from. And how are street orphans supposed to get internet? How are you going to expect kids to just do any of this without anybody watching over them in real life? How you expect people to get the money to get those diplomas if they don't have the funds for it?
    Wait, you're down to street orphans now? Those have much bigger problems then education.

    I have said nothing about "not watching them in real life" either; it just doesn't have to be a teacher.

    And, again, i'm for abolishing need for diplomas (where applicable) rather then making them "free".

    This has so many holes i'm really starting to believe you actually have no idea how life works for anybody who is poor. Its lovely that your parents provided everything you needed, but that is not how it works for most who are born poor. You need an eduction to function in modern society, no way around it.
    There is education and then there is education.

    Did you pay to learn reading and writing?

    Where do you think kids learn to read? Learn Math?
    In most countries that happens in school; but learning it through homeschooling is also quite doable.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    In most countries that happens in school
    /discussion

    Thank you for admitting that the availability of education as a right is a basic necessity and that a system in which people are either having to put themselves into ruinous levels of debt or else scrounge on the margins through what is effectively private charity is a broken one.

    What was your point again, besides victim blaming?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    No need to say "learned on the internet", just say you got experience with whatever is needed. Then prove that you do.

    And in some cases what you need to get actual "experience" is either free or quite low cost.
    Experience from where? With no job to reference you have no experience. If you put experience on your resume without a place of employment to back it up, or they ask you where you got the experience from what are you going to say?

    I'd think it is less then full university course either way.
    While true, you said the education and certification was, or should, free. I'm simply pointing out that it is not.

    Ability to apply what you learned proves that you have knowledge, and nothing else.
    This is typically proven by your certifications, degrees, and/ or previous job experiences, which you put as references on your resume. Most job interviews are NOT tests of your knowledge. They don't typically have you show up and then put you to work to prove what you know or what you can do. Most places don't have time for that. They have a short amount of time to ask you questions, get a feel for your personality, a quick knowledge check and an example of some of your past work experience to make sure you're not completely full of shit and see if you as a person would be a good fit both personality wise and ability wise as an employee.

    I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just not typical, at all, especially for positions where you use your brain more than your hands.

    If they were to find out you "lied" on your resume about your experience and that it involves knowledge you gained from the internet outside of an accredited program, most places wouldn't hire you. And I'm sorry, but an internet education with no certification is essentially the same thing as someone saying "because I said so." The reason accreditation exists is is to validate those programs as those that give the knowledge and skills required for that field.

    Semantics. Technically nothing is free as you at the very least have to spend time to learn it - and you could use that time to make money instead.

    It is free as a learning process. They start to get paid when they get one who learned actual job using what they taught.
    You're the one who brought up how it can, or should be free and then used an example of what you could do that is absolutely NOT free. I'm simply pointing that out.

  10. #170
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    In most countries that happens in school; but learning it through homeschooling is also quite doable.
    So they do get an education, did you actually follow why I was responding to pc2? Or do we have start the discussion as to what kids do at school.
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2020-10-22 at 10:31 PM.

  11. #171
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    What tax revenue?

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    Yes, we all know how rural areas have high quality of life with no problems whatsoever.
    We were talking about in-fill in established single family areas of cities, not rural areas. But I would take the quality of life away from hellhole big cities any day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You won't even get to the interview if you don't have some kind of credential or experience to reference on your resume. Companies aren't going to interview everybody who says, I learned it myself on the internet. And if you think they will, you're delusional.



    Certifications cost money.



    As are everybody else, but that "piece of paper" is what proves you have the knowledge.



    Only point is, it's not free.
    Programers can get hired with no formal education if they code well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    /discussion

    Thank you for admitting that the availability of education as a right is a basic necessity and that a system in which people are either having to put themselves into ruinous levels of debt or else scrounge on the margins through what is effectively private charity is a broken one.

    What was your point again, besides victim blaming?
    If you have ruinous amounts of debt after getting a 4 year degree, you either got a worthless degree or you were stupid about your choice of school.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    If you have ruinous amounts of debt after getting a 4 year degree, you either got a worthless degree or you were stupid about your choice of school.
    The concept of educational debt is stupid regardless because as I've mentioned previously: healthcare, justice, and education correspond to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness respectively and it's self defeating and contradictory in the extreme to gate a social mobility tool behind a plutocratic caste system.

    And no, there's no evidence to suggest the student debt crisis is a result of people having a surfeit of "worthless degrees" (there's no such thing). Just like there's no evidence that Uber doesn't offer anything that a dodgy unlicensed taxi service wouldn't get you, as it turns out.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2020-10-23 at 01:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  13. #173
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The concept of educational debt is stupid regardless because as I've mentioned previously: healthcare, justice, and education correspond to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness respectively and it's self defeating and contradictory in the extreme to gate a social mobility tool behind a plutocratic caste system.

    And no, there's no evidence to suggest the student debt crisis is a result of people having a surfeit of "worthless degrees" (there's no such thing). Just like there's no evidence that Uber doesn't offer anything that a dodgy unlicensed taxi service wouldn't get you, as it turns out.
    The US is devolving more and more into a service economy, the opportunity to earn a good wage without the proper degree is shrinking. A worthless degree is one that does not pay for itself. If you get a degree and the only job you can find is flipping burgers, that is your own fault. If your goal is just to increase your knowledge, there is Coursera and the like if you object to the cost.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Programers can get hired with no formal education if they code well.
    Somewhat rhetorical question, but how is that? Not certainly based on their word. They have something showing their actual skills. Or, as with many other professions really, someone within the hiring company in a position that can help make the call knows who they are and can vouch for them and get them hired.

    I acknowledged it's possible, but it's not the norm in many fields.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The US is devolving more and more into a service economy, the opportunity to earn a good wage without the proper degree is shrinking. A worthless degree is one that does not pay for itself. If you get a degree and the only job you can find is flipping burgers, that is your own fault. If your goal is just to increase your knowledge, there is Coursera and the like if you object to the cost.
    1) There remains no evidence to suggest the student debt crisis is a result of people having a surfeit of "worthless degrees" (there's no such thing).

    2) Burger flippers deserve a living wage also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Programers can get hired with no formal education if they code well.
    That weird intersection between outdated Boomer "just walk in with your resume" mentality that hasn't been true since 2008 and not understanding that there aren't unlimited programmer positions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    1) There remains no evidence to suggest the student debt crisis is a result of people having a surfeit of "worthless degrees" (there's no such thing).

    2) Burger flippers deserve a living wage also.

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    That weird intersection between outdated Boomer "just walk in with your resume" mentality that hasn't been true since 2008 and not understanding that there aren't unlimited programmer positions.
    1: If you have a job that makes enough to pay your student debt, you are not in crisis. If you picked a deree/school that costs more than the degree is worth, that is your own stupid fault.
    2: A burger flipper with a degree deserves no more than one without a degree, all else being equal.

    I am well aware there are a limited number of programing jobs, just as I am aware the number of good paying jobs (with or without a degree) are lower than they used to be and housing costs are ridiculous in many areas.

  17. #177
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    1: If you have a job that makes enough to pay your student debt, you are not in crisis. If you picked a deree/school that costs more than the degree is worth, that is your own stupid fault.
    Oh so you're just disputing that the student debt crisis is a thing, okay. You're still wrong.

    2: A burger flipper with a degree deserves no more than one without a degree, all else being equal.
    They deserve a living wage regardless.

    I am well aware there are a limited number of programing jobs, just as I am aware the number of good paying jobs (with or without a degree) are lower than they used to be and housing costs are ridiculous in many areas.
    And your solution to this seems to be some sociopathic Malthusian viewpoint of the undeserving poor dying off to equalize the employment market, apparently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #178
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Oh so you're just disputing that the student debt crisis is a thing, okay. You're still wrong.



    They deserve a living wage regardless.



    And your solution to this seems to be some sociopathic Malthusian viewpoint of the undeserving poor dying off to equalize the employment market, apparently.
    You just like to dispute that people have any responsibility in their own success. Either your degree pays for itself or it doesn't.

    That would depend on your definition of living wage.

    I am not ideologically opposed to governmental assurance of the survival of individuals actually.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    So they do get an education, did you actually follow why I was responding to pc2? Or do we have start the discussion as to what kids do at school.
    Did you pay for your actual kid's school?

    I thought you were talking about things that aren't already free, but maybe i'm missing something.

  20. #180
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Did you pay for your actual kid's school?

    I thought you were talking about things that aren't already free, but maybe i'm missing something.
    That says nothing about the quality and whether that is even true for the whole world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    You just like to dispute that people have any responsibility in their own success. Either your degree pays for itself or it doesn't.

    That would depend on your definition of living wage.

    I am not ideologically opposed to governmental assurance of the survival of individuals actually.
    That assumes they have the luck to find a job within the field they hold a degree in.

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