Teldrassil Knowledge

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I never said he's not, but it provides good context for where he's getting his inspiration from, which in turn provides context for the trash fire that is the "morally grey" faction war plotline that's devolved into seeing who can come up with the biggest atrocity to sweep under the rug.

I don't really buy it honestly, and its not like Danuser is a dictator of the story lore despite what this forum wants to believe.

[tommyhil622]

For what reason?

She won the Mak'gora. They've been ok with her actions up to this point as well. Explain in what universe they would suddenly have a change of heart after that without Sylvanas literally telling them she doesn't care about them. They're against the rebels still even as Saurfang fights. They had no problem locking Baine in chains and leaving him there - Many already attacked you when you tried to free him.



Then you've ignored the entirety of BfA. It doesn't matter whom. The Horde follows it's warchief's orders. It's warchief tells them to kill the rebels.

You're either suddenly saying after an entire expansion of atrocity after atrocity and passing it off as "the warchief's orders," THIS TIME all of a sudden with no reasoning whatsoever, they would decide "maybe no?" And you're arguing more than half of them would. For no reason. OR, you're just a devil's advocate who doesn't actually pay any attention to story and just wants to play devil's advocate. This is a bad time for that - You don't really have a leg to stand on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvdc...l=BearAlMighty

Again it doesn't really ignore anything it's actually supported by the the solidarity seen in the in-game follow up scene with Saurfang's funeral. But you're free to believe the contrary if you wish.

[tommyhil622]

That solidarity scene doesn't exist with him viewed as a traitor, which is true if Sylvanas hasn't told the Horde she doesn't care about them. He got that solidarity scene because he just died trying to fight against the Warchief who literally just gave the entire Horde the middle finger after leading them on a genocidal mission of mass destruction. He would never have been taken past the gates if Sylvanas hadn't left of her own free will, because Thrall and Anduin would have had to been allowed past with Sylvanas still in charge - Which they wouldn't be. Anduin is the leader of the Horde's main enemy, and Thrall joined the traitor's side - He too had already been attacked by members of the Horde in trying to free Baine.

You're taking the AFTER effects of Sylvanas revealing her hatred of the Horde, and using it as proof that if she DIDN'T, things would be the same.

Please take a moment to understand how stupid this is. You've actively proven my point. There is no solidarity with Saurfang without Sylvanas telling the Horde to go fuck itself. He was a traitor up to that point. He had already been actively attacked by members of the Horde for trying to free Baine. There is no reason to believe things would be different this time.

I think you missed my point entirely. In short it proves that if the group following Slyvannas was the blood thirsty killers that don't care for killing their own people and kind, no statement made by Sylvannas would have convinced them to open the doors and not kill the "traitors" anyway. The fact that that statement alone by Slyvannas and the death of Suarfang pushed them to reject her shows that among the loyalists, there were people who didn't agree with her and her ways. In the end, saying that they would have killed the rebel group regardless of Slyvannas uttering those words is still conjecture on your part no matter how many words you capitalize.

[tommyhil622]

This is entirely false though, as proven multiple times through me saying:

Saurfang and Thrall and Baine and all of the traitor leaders, were already attacked, by members of the Horde following Sylvanas' orders, because at the time they were traitors to the Horde. Because that is what their Warchief branded them.

It does not matter what they felt about them. They were traitors.
It does not matter what you believe they might have considered at the time, because they had already considered it a dozen and a half times before then.
What DOES matter, is that they were gung-ho for Sylvanas to win. They truly and honestly believed, whether we like it or not, that his 'hero' status no longer meant anything because he had betrayed the warchief.

I didn't miss your point. Your point is just headcanon. You BELIEVE the Horde would just have a revelation with no support for it whatsoever.

You've repeatedly ignored mine in favor of said headcanon. No matter what you THINK the Horde might have done, they WOULD have done the same thing they'd been doing all expansion long. If not for, and I repeat yet again, Sylvanas literally giving them the metaphorical middle finger.

Without that act, Saurfang is still a traitor and so are Thrall and Anduin. It doesn't matter what respect they had for him - Sylvanas would still order their deaths, and as they already had when you attempted to free Baine, they would once again follow unquestioningly into the dark. Why? Because we saw them do it before, and nothing has changed since then.

Again it boils down to this quote:

Literally, the entire rebellion was doomed if not for Sylvanas giving the Horde the literal middle finger and then realizing "oh, wait, everyone's watching"

This is an assumption. Bold and capitalized letters aren't facts. All i'm saying is anything could have happened and their reaction post what Slyvannas actions after the battle points away from what you think would have happened. Not saying it's impossible but we just don't know despite what you are proposing.

[Nargrom]

The whole Fourth War as a storyline relied on everyone involved being lobotomized. In a more logical storyline, Anduin would have courted the more moderate members of the Horde, including the tauren, the pandaren, the Nightborne, the blood elves, the Darkspears, and those orcs who were true believers in Thrall's vision for a better Horde, into defecting. In many of these cases he has existing friendly, or at least amicable, ties with leadership and combined efforts at propaganda would have made defection palatable to the civilians and military, barring holdouts like the Sunreavers who have personal grudges to settle that would preclude defecting. Varian, far from the best diplomat even after being fixed in Wolfheart, was able to get Lor'themar seriously considering defection.

Someone like Anduin who (for better or worse) has been shown to have a natural gift for diplomacy going in person to talk with Lor'themar, especially after Sylvanas's actions at the Undercity (he'd gone after Sylvanas before for threatening to raise his people as mindless undead shock troops; there's no reason to assume she didn't at the Undercity), would have had at least a moderate chance of successfully wooing him away, moreso as the war dragged on and began exhausting both factions' armies to the point civilian conscripts were next in line at a point in the war where the Alliance was handily winning, a situation made even more dire when Sylvanas threw everyone to the subaquatic wolves in Nazjatar--which should have proved Lor'themar's breaking point in this hypothetical where characters are written as people and not as mouthpieces for whatever plotline Blizzard wants to shove into the spotlight any given week.

Yes, Lor'themar dismissed defection out of hand when Alleria went to talk with him, but that's before Sylvanas threw his people into a meat-grinder war and he ended up at the bottom of the ocean while Nathanos fucked off to gods-know-where. The last time a Warchief threw his people into a meat grinder, it took the Purge of Dalaran to scuttle talks. Considering Lor'themar opted to put grudges aside in the canon timeline, his personal feelings on the matter would be set aside in favor of getting out from an omnicidal lunatic's yoke.

If Anduin had managed to convince all but the diehard partisans to defect to the Alliance, the Fourth War probably would have ended with the Horde's full annexation into the Alliance, especially once Sylvanas outed herself during the mak'gora with Saurfang (which there's no reason to think wouldn't still have happened, since that was apparently his plan the whole time once Anduin finally got the ball rolling). But just like in Mists of Pandaria, everyone involved instead chooses the stupidest responses possible to everything in order to drive conflict, taking turns holding the idiot ball just long enough for Sylvanas's plans to suffer no real material setbacks (other than having her timetable moved forward, which she treats as a minor inconvenience rather than a major problem).

Thats an Alliance player's PoV. I wouldn't want to defect to the alliance after the burning of tree,i am horde and i love my faction. The more logical thing to happen would be after the burning, the horde goes into defense cause the alliance are pissed, and then organise another rebelion. It might have been SoO 2.0 but it would make sense. Have peace talks with the alliance, identify who are the loyalists and prepare. Instead we have that lil'bitch Baine who is all bark no bite( on second thought not even barking) and Lor'themar that is frankly a pussy. The only way to get that elf to act is to either corner him, like it happens with naszatar, fight or flight mode has to forced on him or he just talks and talks until a major event happens and then plays the odds and join the winning side. Like in siege of orgrimmar he was either gonna defect to alliance or join the rebelion, he didnt join officialy until the very last minute. Lastly there is Varok Saurfang and Thrakk who want to make a change but realise that they are too old and depressed to give a fuck and only because of zappy boi we have that pathetic rebelion/mak'gora where the rebels get to win only because i want to believe Varok was smart enough to play with Sylvanas' temper otherwise she would have wiped the floor with all of them. The entire storyline is based on emotion and sheer fucking luck. And those things dont fit into the horde. As horde player and main tauren and orc i am fucking disappointed with how the horde looks atm. Unless in shadowlands we grow some balls i really dunno what im gonna do. Prob make a panda neutral and lvl my way with mining and herbing.

[MikeBogina]

Same reason Alliance players blamed Sylvanas for Varian's death. I understand alliance characters being ignorant, but it kinda goes to show that many of the Alliance players are willfully.
There's 2 factions and 2 sides to the story when it comes to the faction conflict, sometimes if you only pay attention your side's, you fall into traps. Like Horde player would never know that the Sanlayn joined the Horde, despite how heavily involved we are in all the areas they showed up and how not really low-key it was. Or how the Alliance enslaved Pandaren in MoP in the Horde questing area.

Nothing on the Horde side indicated that this was going to happen, even that village in Ashenvale was worse than what Horde saw.

[tommyhil622]

It is not.

To call it an assumption ignores ALL of the story that came before it. You have given absolutely no reason to believe anything could have happened there beyond exactly what I've said.

And bold and capital letters are for emphasis. They're not meant to make me right (even if I am), they're meant to draw attention. It's like not a single person on this forum understands text ettiquite.

So you are telling me that you know the potential outcome of the story given that Slyvannas didn't say the words? And you regarding it as a fact? I truly don't know how to respond to that.

[Nargrom]

Thats an Alliance player's PoV. I wouldn't want to defect to the alliance after the burning of tree,i am horde and i love my faction. The more logical thing to happen would be after the burning, the horde goes into defense cause the alliance are pissed, and then organise another rebelion. It might have been SoO 2.0 but it would make sense. Have peace talks with the alliance, identify who are the loyalists and prepare. Instead we have that lil'bitch Baine who is all bark no bite( on second thought not even barking) and Lor'themar that is frankly a pussy. The only way to get that elf to act is to either corner him, like it happens with naszatar, fight or flight mode has to forced on him or he just talks and talks until a major event happens and then plays the odds and join the winning side. Like in siege of orgrimmar he was either gonna defect to alliance or join the rebelion, he didnt join officialy until the very last minute. Lastly there is Varok Saurfang and Thrakk who want to make a change but realise that they are too old and depressed to give a fuck and only because of zappy boi we have that pathetic rebelion/mak'gora where the rebels get to win only because i want to believe Varok was smart enough to play with Sylvanas' temper otherwise she would have wiped the floor with all of them. The entire storyline is based on emotion and sheer fucking luck. And those things dont fit into the horde. As horde player and main tauren and orc i am fucking disappointed with how the horde looks atm. Unless in shadowlands we grow some balls i really dunno what im gonna do. Prob make a panda neutral and lvl my way with mining and herbing.

And to reply to myself with something else that came to mind and only reinforces the whole emotional arc. The night elves had their fleet on the way during the burning of the tree and when they arrived, the darkshore happened. In canon lore the alliance wins darkshore, instead of pushing through ashenvale into orgrimmar and talking some peace with the rebels and join them in to dealing with Sylvanas the edgy tyrande fucks around in darkshore.

[tommyhil622]

I do, because I'm not adverse to reading context clues.

The simple answer is this: The potential outcome is nonexistant. Because it was never going to happen - Blizzard never wrote the scenario where Sylvanas doesn't fuck herself over.

The complex answer is this: Given everything which had occurred, had Sylvanas not fucked herself over she would:
a) Be in total control of the Horde, who believes Saurfang and his gang are traitors. (Especially having just won a Mak'gora. She has no one questioning her rule anymore.)
b) Have more than enough power to overcome the entire rebellion herself.
c) Have an army which more than outdid the size of the rebellion by many, many times.
d) Already know the Horde was willing to turn on the group, because they had followed her orders to kill them before.
e) Literally all of the above makes it impossible for her to lose. She would have stomped the rebellion, and caused more death than she could have ever desired, had she just kept her fucking mouth shut.

That's more than enough reason to believe what I believe would happen, and couldn't happen any other way. You'd first have to break through each and every one of those walls before you could make the argument that something else could happen, because otherwise, we already saw it happen, and nothing since then had changed. That's how we know it would again.

Understood, I can safely agree to disagree. Probably best anyway

[tommyhil622]

I'm glad you can agree to be wrong then.

Not sure what that means man, i'm just not going to stoop to that level, but good day

[tommyhil622]

Same reason Alliance players blamed Sylvanas for Varian's death. I understand alliance characters being ignorant, but it kinda goes to show that many of the Alliance players are willfully.
There's 2 factions and 2 sides to the story when it comes to the faction conflict, sometimes if you only pay attention your side's, you fall into traps. Like Horde player would never know that the Sanlayn joined the Horde, despite how heavily involved we are in all the areas they showed up and how not really low-key it was. Or how the Alliance enslaved Pandaren in MoP in the Horde questing area.

Nothing on the Horde side indicated that this was going to happen, even that village in Ashenvale was worse than what Horde saw.

That's an interesting idea, I do agree to a certain extent. But, sometimes it goes the other way? For example there's people that still think that Garrosh wasn't an evil guy at the end of MoP. Only because they bought into the propaganda presented from the Garrosh point of view if that makes sense?

- - - Updated - - -

It means you have no support for your idea. You agree to disagree, but can't support the idea you do agree with. So you agree to be wrong, because you do not have a point.

I can't agree to disagree with someone who can't even come up with an idea to support. We aren't disagreeing - I'm literally telling you the story, and you're countering with "well that's not how i feel " like that's a valid response. It isn't.

No actually you are completely mischaracterizing the initial point of disagreement and clouding with extraneous information that has no bearing on the discussion. To what end i don't know. All I know is what would happen if Slyvannas had killed Saurfang and not said the dreadful words she uttered not caring for the horde. Plain and simple. You think you know what that result would be an i simply disagree with it. It's quite simple. Hence the agree to disagree cause you keep missing the point.

[bowlink]

Maby its the fact that the horde time and time again has proven they can not be trusted ever. whenever the alliance pull some shit its always a small group or a single instagator. genn might not have been punished but sky admiral Catherine Rogers sure was, seeing as she hasn't been seen or heard from since. my gues she was stripped of her rank and banished, moved back up north and joined the scarlet brotherhood.

in the horde case however when they pull shit everyone is always on board to kill some alliance dogs no matter if its justified or not,

IMHO Warcraft 3 is an outlier. horde fight wars because they think their fun and nothing else.

The Alliance Needs some Zealotry going around. Because im getting sick and tired of having to turn the other cheek whenever the horde tries to start something.

[tommyhil622]

Maby its the fact that the horde time and time again has proven they can not be trusted ever. whenever the alliance pull some shit its always a small group or a single instagator. genn might not have been punished but sky admiral Catherine Rogers sure was, seeing as she hasn't been seen or heard from since. my gues she was stripped of her rank and banished, moved back up north and joined the scarlet brotherhood.

in the horde case however when they pull shit everyone is always on board to kill some alliance dogs no matter if its justified or not,

IMHO Warcraft 3 is an outlier. horde fight wars because they think their fun and nothing else.

The Alliance Needs some Zealotry going around. Because im getting sick and tired of having to turn the other cheek whenever the horde tries to start something.

To be fair the Warcraft 3 Horde was just an entirely different animal. One could say roughly the same in the initial years of Thralls rule give or take.

The issue is really the narrative. The narrative is usually very linear and doesn't accommodate for dissenting voices or anything that deviates from the main story line. I just wish for once when they do return to the faction conflict sooner or later, let it be something more grey, not another Garrosh or another Slyvannas, just perhaps a disagreement in philosophy or a simple misunderstanding that turns into a greater problem. Like the whole azerite thing had the potential of being a resource war but that was pretty much abandoned.

[NorthernDragon]

Maybe its bad writing or maybe its because many of the Horde players (not all as I don't) constantly want war with the Alliance. You can even see it in the forums here where they claim the best writing is the faction conflict but cry when the horde are made the bad guys and then complain that the faction conflict writing is also bad but only because Blizzard can't write a "real" faction conflict what ever that means.

Also if the Horde has a history of not learning from their past mistakes and continually supporting genocidal monsters is it really bad writing or just the Horde being themselves?

I mean faction war stories are impossible to really write in MMORPGs because there's no winner or loser. The whole faction conflict plot is illogical and makes every major lore character look incompetent. The best stories in WoW were those not about faction nonsense

[tommyhil622]

I haven't mischaracterized any statement from you, and more importantly, your entire point this thread is that you DON'T know what would happen. You've specifically been replying to me with "That's an assumption, we just don't know" and now you claim you know what would happen, despite never having said a single word that would suggest that at all.

You disagree with my statement for reasons which don't make sense, as I've pointed out multiple times.

We don't agree to disagree, because all you're doing is disagreeing. Which is not how "agreeing to disagree" works. Both parties agree to disagree, but you have provided absolutely nothing worth disagreeing with - You just say I'm wrong, with no evidence to back up your claim, and that "you disagree with me." That's great - But you have no idea what happened then, because you're presuming things which simply aren't true, based on evidence which doesn't make sense, which I've more than proven and you have yet to counter. So why you'd pretend that you've somehow made a point in all this is baffling.

There's no agreeing to disagree when you refuse to acknowledge what makes you wrong. In that case I don't agree that you should disagree, I think you need to learn more about the lore.

You are kinda arguing by yourself at this point. Not even sure what are you talking about anymore. I'll stop responding because your replies are so far removed from the initial discussion it's not productive to continue. So this will be my last response on this matter.

[Scottyjscizzle]

How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her

They knew the second she ordered them to do it, and did it. They should have been slaughtered like the monsters they have always been.

[Mungho]

Also if the Horde has a history of not learning from their past mistakes and continually supporting genocidal monsters is it really bad writing or just the Horde being themselves?

But isn't the Horde not learning from their mistakes bad writing as well?

They knew the second she ordered them to do it, and did it. They should have been slaughtered like the monsters they have always been.

The forsaken who fired the catapults have already been killed.

[Minikin]

Not even Nathanos knew. He was clearly taken by surprise too.

I wonder if Blizzard will ever explore the regret he sometimes felt.

Please no.

We don't need the autobiography of the ultimate simp.

[A Chozo]

We don't need the autobiography of the ultimate simp.

I was thinking more about him somehow sabotaging Sylvanas, or his cousin's soul confronting his in the Shadowlands since both will be there.

[MikeBogina]

That's an interesting idea, I do agree to a certain extent. But, sometimes it goes the other way? For example there's people that still think that Garrosh wasn't an evil guy at the end of MoP. Only because they bought into the propaganda presented from the Garrosh point of view if that makes sense?

At the end of MoP, I feel like it'd be more of meme at that point, but at the end of Cata, I can see it more, especially considering he had numerous moments that conflicted with each other.

One thing with Garrosh is that you actually have retcons and behind the scene revelations 2 years later to vilify the character more. Apparently for 2 years, there was a bunch of human captives in Ogrimmar and we just never knew of it the whole time, but from the Alliance PoV coming into Orgrimmar, to you(if you're alliance) it must make us look guilty of this, despite it wasn't a thing until SoO.

Tbh, Blizzard is just really bad at developing their story, they had a really good story going on 15+ years ago and have just shitted on it constantly with every development. Did you know that after Thrall appointed a supposed racist warmonger as warchief, Voljin went and then did the same thing and everyone was shocked that the same story played out again

Hopefully we're done with faction conflict cause it's always a miss, especially with delivering the story to the players, especially both sides.