Let us all at least agree to this:

[LanToaster]

Mudcrab did a good job of debunking the OP, but allow me to bring up something I mentioned in a previous thread for everyone who keeps claiming the cash shop is necessary for Blizzard to pay the bills.

Its funny that you think the only reason to sell something is because you are n dire need for money to "Pay the Bills"

[Thage]

i dont think its necessary to pay bills, but its necessary to increase revenue, which is after all the reason of existence of ANY business...
and they could go two ways about it: 1. increase sub, and make EVERYONE pay, or 2. introduce token to get people to play without spending money and introduce microtransactions so only people who WANT TO will pay...
i think the choice they made is better for both business and customers

For the record, I don't think the token is a bad thing in and of itself. Offering players an avenue to fund their game time through gold-farming is a win-win situation for both business and consumer. My issue lay entirely in the rest of the cash shop. I, on principle, am against pay-to-play games that have a cash shop on the side without offering a robust freemium option; Lineage II is free-to-play and makes its money off the cash shop and a subscription option. The cash shop is one of my primary issues with FFXIV's monetization strategy despite generally cheerleading that game in many other regards. As far as growing revenue, the token alone seems to be a smash hit in that regard and, again, it's the definition of a win-win scenario for both consumer and business. The issue is that the cash shop enabled a rapid spike in revenue and (again, an issue with the industry writ large) it pushed Blizzard into an unsustainable growth model that ATVI's investors have now become comfortable with and expectant of, which is going to spell bad news when the growth bubble pops.

If WoW were to transition to a free-play model with a subscription option (which is distinct from a subscription game with a free trial), I would shut up about the cash shop because I understand the game needs to bring in revenue somehow. But again, if your company is in trouble despite pulling in well over six and a half million dollars every month, there is a serious problem in how your company allocates money and someone needs to get a handle on that, pronto.

[meowfurion]

I'll whine/complain about whatever I want anytime and anywhere I want, sorry.

[Thage]

Its funny that you think the only reason to sell something is because you are n dire need for money to "Pay the Bills"

Don't put words in my mouth. There are people who claim this in this thread itself, which is who my post was aimed at. I never said that was the only reason to sell something--if you read my post in full (odd how you jumped on someone for skimming earlier and obviously skimmed yourself) I even said Blizzard put the cash shop in because they saw other games in the industry pulling in major revenue off microtransactions and wanted in on that slice of the pie.

[Lurker1]

Don't put words in my mouth. There are people who claim this in this thread itself, which is who my post was aimed at. I never said that was the only reason to sell something--if you read my post in full (odd how you jumped on someone for skimming earlier and obviously skimmed yourself) I even said Blizzard put the cash shop in because they saw other games in the industry pulling in major revenue off microtransactions and wanted in on that slice of the pie.

well said almost every company does it now.

[zafran]

it is not about defending blizzard's store, or burning it down. its about the lost opportunity with said items.
they could have done so many cool things with it, yet they just went for the money grabbing method. and they will keep putting the coolest and most detailed items in the shop because people buy them.

lets look at some of the unique and cool things the game offers.
- Artifact weapon appearances were a huge success in legion. many people were working on unlocking all the different artifact looks, whether its doing quest, mage tower, unlocking the secret look of each weapon.
- Warlocks green fire quest. that was a really cool quest with a unique reward to a specific class, yet it added more flavor in the game.
- Hunter's rare pets tracking. while it doesnt offer that much of a reward, its still a cool system that players can engage with.

putting the coolest items in the store just cheapens the experience. im not saying there shouldnt be a store (i prefer if there wasnt, but i came to accept its existence) but prioritizing the cooler items to be put there is sad. if we look at 8.3, every item that was added in this patch is ugly. none of the armor sets stood out to me, there isnt a new pvp/warfront set to seek. (just a recolor of the ugly raid set), most of the mounts are recolored worms.
Just looking at the store right now, i see they have added 2 pets, 7 mounts, 2 toys, and now a transmog set in BfA alone all of which are unique and very detailed. i personally think that this is too much and shouldnt be the norm.

[arandomuser]

in modern western world, one can whine about almost anything, frankly.

damn right, its our right to be upset about their business practice
and its also their right to keep doing those practices because it makes them more money than our opinion is worth
freee society is based

[Unholyground]

in modern western world, one can whine about almost anything, frankly.

To be fair, when a population gets to complacent it is very bad so bitching about everything while exhaustive is better than not at all.

[Doffen]

People won't let hypocricy stop them from whining.

People also won't get over their ex-partner syndrome with ease. Some have suffered from it for a decade by now.

So the only thing we can agree on, is that we can't all agree. WoW token FTW though, it's saved me so much money.

Yep, WoW token ftw! I have saved 1100+ euros on it since 2015 lol. Buying other Blizzard games, expansions and stuff through battle.net.

Mhm with token averaging on 200k give or take, 16million gold. Sounds about right. 42.5k gold average per day from FaceWoW Mission Tables from 7.3. 150g from every WQ. Several 1000s of gold per day before 7.3 as well from Table. Those days are over but now I can easily make 2+3 wow tokens a month from paragon gold and flipping some shit with low effort.

Token makes it so people with low income can buy it with gold too. 13 euros is a lot in some countries. So there are some social, good effects from it as well.

[Magical Mudcrab]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subscr...business_model

I dont see anything remotely in line with your claims. Read up on the Topic if you think others are wrong.
There is only two key points: "A subscription model may be beneficial for the software buyer if it forces the supplier to improve its product."
This is the "Expection" you have that the money flows directly into development. Blizzard needs to develop the game, in order to keep subscriptions. They are however not obligated to do so, as you are not obligated to keep your subscription active.

The service you are looking for is GaaS as games are delivered to users as a service. This is typically referred to as the live service model. This is different from typical subscription services, such as those used by Netflix.

You do not understand the service model being employed.
You do not understand the industry being discussed, otherwise you would not have repeatedly made silly comparisons to disparate service models and tried to equate them.
You do not understand anti-consumer behaviour, as anti-consumer and anti-consumerism are not even remotely the same thing; their only commonality is that they are related to business practice.
You do not understand the difference between expansions and patches, which means you have no concept either of the history of WoW and the initial controversies surrounding this or you just cannot comprehend the difference in investment between a patch and an expansion.

It's very apparent that you just wish to continue arguing from a point of ignorance and bad faith. This has been a waste of time.

[Hellobolis]

they would not exist... they are made for the very purpose of selling them, they dont just make them and decide then...
doing something that would cost you resources and brings NOTHING in return is the surest way how to bankrupt your company in long run...

that could be a decent argument if a lot of the mounts on the cash store weren't already existing models.

for every truly unique mount on the store there is also a high grade reskin of an existing mob/model and a copy pasta grade reskin of an existing mob/model.

you straight up can't make that argument for things like imperial quilien, enchanted fey dragon, grinning reaver, iron skyreaver or the alabaster mounts which are all almost direct copy pastas of existing mobs.
and then stuff like mystic runesaber and steamscale incinerator, are like the bare minium of effort possible, completely on par with non-special in game rewards.
then theres some okay effort ones like luminious starseeker/vulpine familiar where you start to get into the cash shop exclusive effects.
and only then do you get to the truly unique mounts.

if they were going to go bankrupt because of this, they wouldn't even make the truly unique mounts they would just stick with the lower effort tiers of stuff on the cash shop.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Yep, WoW token ftw! I have saved 1100+ euros on it since 2015 lol. Buying other Blizzard games, expansions and stuff through battle.net.

Mhm with token averaging on 200k give or take, 16million gold. Sounds about right. 42.5k gold average per day from FaceWoW Mission Tables from 7.3. 150g from every WQ. Several 1000s of gold per day before 7.3 as well from Table. Those days are over but now I can easily make 2+3 wow tokens a month from paragon gold and flipping some shit with low effort.

Token makes it so people with low income can buy it with gold too. 13 euros is a lot in some countries. So there are some social, good effects from it as well.

It's awesomesauce for sure. 1100+ euro saved over a period of 5 years is not exactly pocket change, and I know a couple of people who before the token couldn't sub as often as they wanted to. When the token came, they were able to buy gametime for years and years into the future thanks to the Garrison gold.

My only gripe is not being able to pay for physical CE's using Battle.net Balance, but it's an expense that comes every 2 years or so. The money saved thanks to the WoW token is still immense. ^_^

[Lolites]

For the record, I don't think the token is a bad thing in and of itself. Offering players an avenue to fund their game time through gold-farming is a win-win situation for both business and consumer. My issue lay entirely in the rest of the cash shop. I, on principle, am against pay-to-play games that have a cash shop on the side without offering a robust freemium option; Lineage II is free-to-play and makes its money off the cash shop and a subscription option. The cash shop is one of my primary issues with FFXIV's monetization strategy despite generally cheerleading that game in many other regards. As far as growing revenue, the token alone seems to be a smash hit in that regard and, again, it's the definition of a win-win scenario for both consumer and business. The issue is that the cash shop enabled a rapid spike in revenue and (again, an issue with the industry writ large) it pushed Blizzard into an unsustainable growth model that ATVI's investors have now become comfortable with and expectant of, which is going to spell bad news when the growth bubble pops.

If WoW were to transition to a free-play model with a subscription option (which is distinct from a subscription game with a free trial), I would shut up about the cash shop because I understand the game needs to bring in revenue somehow. But again, if your company is in trouble despite pulling in well over six and a half million dollars every month, there is a serious problem in how your company allocates money and someone needs to get a handle on that, pronto.

you can leave token out of it and its still mostly the same - they could either increase sub or go with mtx, so would 25/month (and if you consider inflation alone you would get to over 20/m so 25 is not much of a leap) and no mtx be better?
for most people absolutely not... actualy it would be better only for people who DO buy shop items...

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that could be a decent argument if a lot of the mounts on the cash store weren't already existing models.

those are usualy not the "shop" mounts, but rather mounts from something that are put to shop if you missed it (quilen from pandaria colector and alabaster mounts from 15th aniversary for example)
enchanted fey dragon im not sure if is reskin but it was charity event mount i believe, so thats a bit different i would say...
grining reaver and skyreaver... well i think it suffice to say they are from WOD, so no surprise they didnt put much work into those

still, even if its very little effort, its SOME effort, that would be a loss if they put it ingame...
would i be happier if they were available ingame? sure, but that was never an option, it was either shop mount or no mount...

[korijenkins]

I don't get why they would complain over a 20€ item to advance their completion of the game when tcg mounts alone cost like 20000€

Because the TCG is a separate entity that had a few cards with in-game uses.

The complaint is not about the cost or the lack of completion. Most completionists I've met don't care about shop mounts or shop gear as part of their collection. What I hear people complaining about is resources going to item shop garbage instead of gameplay rewards.

[Thage]

you can leave token out of it and its still mostly the same - they could either increase sub or go with mtx, so would 25/month (and if you consider inflation alone you would get to over 20/m so 25 is not much of a leap) and no mtx be better?
for most people absolutely not... actualy it would be better only for people who DO buy shop items...

I don't follow. Are you insinuating inflation didn't happen from 2005 until the Celestial Steed was implemented in... 2008? 2009? Because I can tell you that's patently false. And even after the introduction of the cash shop, they still raised their prices in the UK and EU markets, so obviously the cash shop isn't preventing subscription cost increases, so you can stop parroting that line.

Again, the only reason they implemented microtransactions was because they saw how much other industry powerhouses like Lineage II were making off of them as part of their freemium model, and wanted a slice of the pie. And again, if WoW wants to have a freemium business model, they can for all I care. My issue is they want to have their cake and eat it.

those are usualy not the "shop" mounts, but rather mounts from something that are put to shop if you missed it (quilen from pandaria colector and alabaster mounts from 15th aniversary for example)

The alabaster mounts are just marble reskins of the quest reward mounts from doing the 5.1 quest line all the way to the finale you get at Exalted.

[kranur]

First of all everyone is free to like or dislike any particular aspect of the game.

Second of all, it's a subscription based game with an expansion cost too. It's only fair for people to expect tovbe able to earn everything in game without throwing more cash.

[Lolites]

I don't follow. Are you insinuating inflation didn't happen from 2005 until the Celestial Steed was implemented in... 2008?

thats not what i said... at all...
but surely the inflation over 3-4 years was less impactful than over 16years... and until wotlk the number of players was going up, which works for them to ofset it a bit, but surprisingly players as "resource" are not infinite...
other costs, like wages, (and number of employee too), have risen too... or do you believe they have the same costs as in 2005? bcs the price is the same, so what other solution do you see to offset rising costs than increase of revenue? or, what other way of increasing revenue do you see than increasing sub price or making the money from something else (a.k.a. microtransactions)?
only one i see would be increase price of expansions (or more often released expansions) but that would have to be HUGE increase in price to make enough, which would in turn chase away more players...
i dont remember them raising price in EU, when was that? bcs as far as i can remember i pay the same (and i have wow at home since wotlk)...

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it's a subscription based game with an expansion cost too. It's only fair for people to expect tovbe able to earn everything in game without throwing more cash.

they are able to... you can farm gold, and you can buy anything on shop AND pay your sub AND expansions...
there are people who didnt spend a dime on blizz stuff since introduction of token and have it all...

[rrayy]

Don't put words in my mouth. There are people who claim this in this thread itself, which is who my post was aimed at. I never said that was the only reason to sell something--if you read my post in full (odd how you jumped on someone for skimming earlier and obviously skimmed yourself) I even said Blizzard put the cash shop in because they saw other games in the industry pulling in major revenue off microtransactions and wanted in on that slice of the pie.

That and the increased revenue keeps you ahead of costs that will always continue to creep upwards so you never get to a point where you are forced to cut costs.

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they are able to... you can farm gold, and you can buy anything on shop AND pay your sub AND expansions...
there are people who didnt spend a dime on blizz stuff since introduction of token and have it all...

We can end the thread right here. This kills all arguments against the shop.

[Thage]

thats not what i said... at all...
but surely the inflation over 3-4 years was less impactful than over 16years... and until wotlk the number of players was going up, which works for them to ofset it a bit, but surprisingly players as "resource" are not infinite...
other costs, like wages, (and number of employee too), have risen too... or do you believe they have the same costs as in 2005? bcs the price is the same, so what other solution do you see to offset rising costs than increase of revenue? or, what other way of increasing revenue do you see than increasing sub price or making the money from something else (a.k.a. microtransactions)?
only one i see would be increase price of expansions (or more often released expansions) but that would have to be HUGE increase in price to make enough, which would in turn chase away more players...
i dont remember them raising price in EU, when was that? bcs as far as i can remember i pay the same (and i have wow at home since wotlk)...

Expansion prices have increased with every expansion since WotLK, with the exception of Shadowlands that offers a discounted version leaving out the bundled level boost (an automated process that most assuredly does not cost half of the $60 you're charged for it, and thus has no intrinsic value to it beyond the electricity used). So again, costs already rise even at a time when Blizzard is shrinking non-development staff, both in terms of subscription costs in certain markets, and box sales for expansions until the most recent one introduced a basic option more in-line with older expansion prices. These are realities that the cash shop did not prevent, or delay in any meaningful way as the subscription cost increases happened years on years ago, and the expansions have increased in price since Cataclysm until now.

And again, if you think it costs Blizzard $70 million a year to pay wages and keep the lights on, to say nothing of the fact that I've repeatedly noted that is on the extreme low end of reality that assumes several worst-case scenarios for Blizzard financially (including a 500k subscriber pool that all pays the $77/6mo block price of 13/mo, the worst source of income for the company), excludes all sales from other games, the cash shop, and tokens, and assumes every one of those 500k remain subscribed all the time instead of taking a break every other cycle, you are gravely misinformed about the cost of doing business. Blizzard is not using the cash shop to save themselves from undesirable financial constraints. They are doing it for the sole, only, and exclusive purpose of increasing revenue beyond the massive revenue they already bring in from subscriptions, box sales, and microtransactions in their other games like Overwatch and Hearthstone (the latter of which monetizes entirely off booster sales and expansion sales).

[Lolites]

Blizzard is not using the cash shop to save themselves from undesirable financial constraints.

i NEVER said that...
they want to make more money because, brace yourself, they are BUSINESS, its their whole PURPOSE to MAKE MORE MONEY, and if the costs are increasing, their revenue must too, or their stock loose value and so on...
so again WHERE would you take the money?
and shadowlands is great example of the philosophy i already mentioned (if collector editions were not good enough proof) - instead of making EVERYONE pay more they make people pay less, unless they WANT TO...

btw still waiting for you to tell me when they increased sub prices in EU as you already said twice and backed it with nothing... bcs i live and play in eu and still pay the same amount... but i wont get it i know, you dont want to accomodate reality, you just want to be mad even if you have to MAKE UP reasons... im not interesting in delusions though, so ill just ignore you, have a nice day