Teldrassil Knowledge

[Eggroll]

I still cannot get over the fact that the devs placed nelf troops standing idly in Boralus while they could take back their homeland.

Tyrande would never allow this...

[Super Dickmann]

People can be both, though "trolled by a single night elf" is a stupid way of putting it that I've never agreed with because I read the books.

I could go back further and say she betrayed the Horde when she murdered her own forsaken who were trying to run back into her open arms for daring to consider hope of a better future.

Or go back even further, to when she captured a horde death knight for years of brainwashing experiments for daring to work with the alliance against a common enemy of the scourge instead of securing victory.

Sylvanas is Sylvanas. A terrible leader, and a terrible person.

We've beat over the Gathering thing a million times, but punishing a disobedient subordinate who gave the enemy commander a free pass through capture and (incredibly ineffectual) torture is actually more tolerant than how the Warchiefs deal with it, given Thrall and Garrosh simply killed Burx and Krom'gar respectively.

Past that, no one even questioned her orders the second she ordered the tree torched and shamans helped spread the flames unquestioningly. No one, again, except Saurfang, gave a shit about the night elf barbecue afterwards enough to take any action over it until she'd had the temerity to enslave a single human. Orc and troll troops used night elf captives for target practice while fighting alongside skeletons and geists in Darkshore and went on a massacre in Brennadam. There is no amount of advanced coping techniques that can make up for the fact that the majority of the Horde and Sylvanas' public position of total war were in alignment. It's her private position of wanting to feed them all to her sugar daddy and ditching them being outed that got them to turn on her.

[InfiniteCharger]

The whole Burning of Teldrassil in game was what? A scenario done at the end of Legion. It literally just came out of nowhere in game.
So in terms of narrative world building, they can make it seem like everybody was surprised by this somehow.
Because it wasn't done in game in "real time" so you have to take their word for it.
So if they say the Horde didn't know then so be it. Even though logically you would have to know that you are transporting all that azerite.
Why do you need that if all you are doing is seizing the city? Not to mention why don't mages know how to make portals anymore?
Like seriously? Now boats are an issue for transportation?

Heck they even retconned their own lore by saying that Sylvanas had the power to raise infinite undead from the slaughter.
But turn right around and say all dead go to the MAW and she is working towards that goal.
Kinda contradictory.

[Powerogue]

It's her private position of wanting to feed them all to her sugar daddy and ditching them being outed that got them to turn on her.

Yes. She turned on them well before the majority of them turned on her. That's how manipulating people works.

[Super Dickmann]

Yes. She turned on them well before the majority of them turned on her. That's how manipulating people works.

No shit, the topic is whether the majority of the Horde aided her voluntarily on her public platform of world conquest based on no holds barred war and they did. It's the totality of the Horde, save Saurfang, up until 8.1.5.

[Aresk]

Sylvanas told everyone, Saurfang and the player included, that the goal was to capture the tree and kill Malfurion, so the Alliance could not use their ports to move azerite.

She lied about every reason for the invasion to make it seem like it could be "A Good War" and get Saurfang on board, then betrayed that trust in every way possible over the course of the expansion. Both Saurfang's trust, and by extension, ours. It was not A Good War, it was evil, a war against hope from inside and outside the Horde, and anyone who would not relinquish that were her enemies, even without lifting a hand against her.

Sylvanas betrayed the Horde, a traitor long before the gates of Orgrimmar.

She also told Nathanos that she wouldn't attack her own people at Arathi, but we all know how that went down. Things changed in both scenarios that caused her to adjust her tactics (Malf wasn't killed, some Forsaken began defecting), but she had clearly made plans for both outcomes. Whether she was always planning to proceed with killing people or whether that was a contingency for which she had prepared is still debatable.

[Violent]

How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her

Because it's war?
War is two factions fighting to an end. Not, two factions stalemating to make sure their populations stay up there.
If you're at war, you should "imagine" the otherside is going to try and kill you, that's a safe fuckin bet.
If you're at war, and you have a GIANT WOODEN TREE in your front yard, ITS SAFE TO ASSUME THE OTHERSIDE MIGHT BURN THAT TREE DOWN..

WoW isn't supposed to be this damn "care-bear". It's literally a game about two factions in a constant war.

(I thought about burning that fuckin tree down myself, 2 months into the game, as a Nightelf.) if no "war-leader" ever thought about that, then we have the worlds' shittiest writers.

[Amaterasu65]

The majority of the Horde supported Sylvanas until she told them some mean words and flew off. No one brought up the tree except Saurfang right after and it wasn't enough to get him to leave, he left over the concept of using Undercity as a trap.

So much this.

[MikeBogina]

I liked the Garrosh that kept Sylvannas in check and that samw Garrosh that threw the overlord off the ledge in stonetalon. If they kept in that direction, a Garrosh arc could have been rather interesting.

I remember in TBC not liking Garrosh and still disliked him in WotLK, like why is this character getting more spotlight. Then going into Cata, they revealed he was going to be the Warchief and people didn't like this and I think it was Alex who said that Garrosh was going to get some development behind the scenes and surprise us. Then Cata happens we see some of these moments and then it just stops and it's like... WTF?!

The same feeling happened with Sylvanas, you have her and Varian interacting and it's nice, genuine and you have Voljin tell her to save the Horde and she's wrongfully blamed for it by the Alliance. Then you have Voljin who admits he doesn't like her, but in their hour of need she saved them and he's been given clarity and many will not understand but she needs to step out of the shadow and lead and she's genuinely taken back by this. It was a very genuine moment, but again like Garrosh, it feels like they decided to change the story at some point and she was used as a plot tool to get us to the next 2 expansions, kinda like Garrosh was used to get us to MoP and WoD.

As a Horde player, it just kinda sucks to see this, one of the reasons I dont play WoW anymore :/

And yeah they probably will come back to faction conflict, but if they can't do it right, i just hope they never do it again

[NorthernDragon]

Because it's war?
War is two factions fighting to an end. Not, two factions stalemating to make sure their populations stay up there.
If you're at war, you should "imagine" the otherside is going to try and kill you, that's a safe fuckin bet.
If you're at war, and you have a GIANT WOODEN TREE in your front yard, ITS SAFE TO ASSUME THE OTHERSIDE MIGHT BURN THAT TREE DOWN..

WoW isn't supposed to be this damn "care-bear". It's literally a game about two factions in a constant war.

(I thought about burning that fuckin tree down myself, 2 months into the game, as a Nightelf.) if no "war-leader" ever thought about that, then we have the worlds' shittiest writers.

But they weren't at war...

They had just defeated the Legion and getting greedy over Azerite. Besides, faction war stories just don't work in MMORPGs because it's an eternal stalemate which is boring af. The best WoW stories are those against a common foe because it's logical and has a conclusion. The fact that Blizzard has to conjure ridiculous scenarios to justify a faction war is testimony to why it's bad. WoW isn't a RTS anymore

[Varodoc]

The problem is that Sylvanas STILL had popular support after the Burning of Teldrassil. So the people of the Horde knew that Sylvanas just committed genocide, and they still supported her. Only a few years after the terrible civil war against Garrosh.

Sure there were some dissidents in Orgrimmar, but the overwhelming majority were still somehow loyal to Sylvanas. That is why the wretched Horde deserves to be wiped out from the face of Azeroth.

[LordVargK]

How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her

Probably because they did not play the Horde questline and on Alliance side it's never explained.

[NorthernDragon]

The problem is that Sylvanas STILL had popular support after the Burning of Teldrassil. So the people of the Horde knew that Sylvanas just committed genocide, and they still supported her. Only a few years after the terrible civil war against Garrosh.

Sure there were some dissidents in Orgrimmar, but the overwhelming majority were still somehow loyal to Sylvanas. That is why the wretched Horde deserves to be wiped out from the face of Azeroth.

I mean not to get political but didn't something similar happen between America and Japan during WWII? Still, fighting genocide with genocide isn't usually great

[Varodoc]

I mean not to get political but didn't something similar happen between America and Japan during WWII? Still, fighting genocide with genocide isn't usually great

It's not real life. I don't give a shit about exterminating a fictional race. It's a bunch of pixels.

[NorthernDragon]

It's not real life. I don't give a shit about exterminating a fictional race. It's a bunch of pixels.

That wasn't really my point Besides, no faction will win which makes the war story redundant

[Varodoc]

That wasn't really my point Besides, no faction will win which makes the war story redundant

What is your point?

I know that won't happen, regardless I wouldn't weep tears for the Horde if they were finally wiped out.

[NorthernDragon]

What is your point?

I know that won't happen, regardless I wouldn't weep tears for the Horde if they were finally wiped out.

Genocide can be praised by the masses if you spin it well enough, much like the American people cheered the nuking of Hiroshima. Obviously we as the players no genocide is bad, but depending on the propaganda it's easy to see people would support it

[Varodoc]

Genocide can be praised by the masses if you spin it well enough, much like the American people cheered the nuking of Hiroshima. Obviously we as the players no genocide is bad, but depending on the propaganda it's easy to see people would support it

The difference being that the people of the Horde had a rebellion against a genocidal Warchief literally 2 years prior to the Fourth War.

[InfiniteCharger]

How come a lot of Alliance players still believe that the Horde knew Sylvanas was planning on burning Teldrassil? I mean it's pretty clear only Sylvanas and potentially Nathanos with some loyalists knew, but the other Horde representatives and people were oblivious that would occur. Granted, there's the ethical situation afterwards regarding the Horde not ousting her immediately but then as she planned the attention was on the inevitable Alliance retaliation and anger from both sides. Ultimately the Horde did organize a coo against her

Because Blizzard shoehorned the whole battle in at the end of an expansion with a couple quests and a scenario.
All of it was so badly done that none of it is believable in how it played out.
The fact that people need to read books about what theoretically actually happened in game makes it even worse.
How did the catapults and azerite make it to darkshore if nobody except a "select few" knew about it?
It would be hard not so see that this was going to be more than a simple siege after weeks of combat.


This goes back to your point that it is impossible to do faction conflict in WOW because it has no agency or weight.
Things go along a predetermined path because the writers have a plan in mind not because of anything you do as a player.
Just as they made that whole 15 minute "rescue" at Teldrassil that limited your involvement to the very last second.
Not to mention that whole Horde and Alliance seeing the same events from "different angles" nonsense.
That is literally the whole basis for the idea that the Horder "thought" everything was justified.
No better than bad terrain being the reason the Alliance thought the Horde betrayed them at the broken shore.


So because of all that you have to take Blizzard's word for it on how things went down regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/War_of_the_Thorns

https://www.wowhead.com/guides/burni...re-patch-event

And on top of that combat has never been realistic in WOW even compared to the RTS.
Because none of the strategy in terms of resource gathering and troop movements were added to the game.
In addition to no offensive / defensive vehicles and equipment means that things just happen by script.

[NorthernDragon]

The difference being that the people of the Horde had a rebellion against a genocidal Warchief literally 2 years prior to the Fourth War.

Well yeah it's shitty writing