If Sylvanas went to the maw and hated it

[Ersula]

yeah, where exactly was i wrong about everything else hm? you havent said anything proven or correct yet

You didn't know Mal'ganis faked his death

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

The fact that no one who died between ICC & now appears in the Shadowlands should be conspicuous information

Garrosh is currently in Revendreth being used as a "work horse" for Anima.

[Ersula]

Garrosh is currently in Revendreth being used as a "work horse" for Anima.

And as portrayed in Revendreth, the Venthyr aristocracy were then sending everyone to the maw: So everyone's getting sent to the maw, with the temporary pitstop in Revendreth to get succed

[masterjc]

So she flings herself off icecrown, dies and goes to what she calls hell. She hates it and makes a deal with the valkyr to leave

Is the hell she talked about even the maw? Are there valkyr in the maw?

Why did she suddenly do an 180 and join the guy that made her afterlife miserable?

Did she go to another unknown realm? If someone is ressurected, are their souls just pulled from the shadowlands without the intervention of the pantheon of death?

Death is even more confusing than timetravel imo

1. Mawsworn have some Val'Kyr with them. Forsworn, who seem to be recent creation, are part of it. also back in WotLK we had only ValKyr models and maybe nobody had idea how to explain whatever she saw. anyway, there are ValKyr, aka Kyrian in Maw forces, both same models, and faceless models
2. Join me or Suffer eternally - I think it can be motivating, when very powerful Being gives u such offer
3. maybe she has no idea, that was manipulated by Jailer and/or his allies and after losing those Valkyr servants, she went to Helya to get more, and via her allied to Jailer
4. Death stuff seems pretty weird
I'll give you just one example:
in Cata, when world was revamped, there werre added NE ruins in Stonetalon, filled with NE ghosts, who doesnot seem to know that they are dead

wtf is this? fragments of souls? actual souls? why didnot Kyrian take them to afterlife? or did they take thme, but somehow left "fragments of souls" there?
if all dead go to Shadowlands, wtf are Wisps? we know so far, it is spirits of dead N Elves
and so on

[bagina]

So she flings herself off icecrown, dies and goes to what she calls hell. She hates it and makes a deal with the valkyr to leave

Is the hell she talked about even the maw? Are there valkyr in the maw?

Why did she suddenly do an 180 and join the guy that made her afterlife miserable?

Did she go to another unknown realm? If someone is ressurected, are their souls just pulled from the shadowlands without the intervention of the pantheon of death?

Death is even more confusing than timetravel imo

Yeah, it's dumb that she'd willingly serve a dude that brought her to the Maw. Which is why I think she might backstab him later. Heck, not "might" I think she WILL backstab him. If she doesn't, well, not the first time WoW's writing been bad. One thing I know, she sure as hell won't be dying for him.

[shimerra]

Yeah, it's dumb that she'd willingly serve a dude that brought her to the Maw. Which is why I think she might backstab him later. Heck, not "might" I think she WILL backstab him. If she doesn't, well, not the first time WoW's writing been bad. One thing I know, she sure as hell won't be dying for him.

Why is "You will suffer literal unending eternal torment living in constant agony until your mind is broken only for it to continue or.................................you can serve me and not go through that plus have some power" an unbelievable reason for her to serve? Seems like a pretty damn good one too me that honestly even the most upstanding of person would have a hard time rejecting. Quite literally for all of time the maw has proven inescapable for persons trapped in it and it's pretty much a guarantee Sylvannas would be right to belief without some help she's not getting out so it would be entirely out of character for her not to take the offer that saves her ass at the expense of everyone else.

For starts, I don't recall if this has been said, pretty good chance she was going to the maw if the arbiter did it's thing without Jailer interference and even if the Jailer pulled her in when she was destined for somewhere like revendreath or maldraxxus we have no idea if she knew that was his doing now or at the time the offer was made as far as I'm aware. But again even if she fully knew 100% that the Jailer was the only reason she's in there do what I say or suffer the above is a very good reason.


I fully agree she will look to backstab him and is already looking for an out if she has one already. But the idea that her accepting the offer is dumb or unreasonable even if she wasn't the type to double, triple, or X cross someone is .....well.. just fucking stupid to say.

[KainneAbsolute]

The guy tell her:

oppose me and suffer
or
be my ally and receive a new transmog

[MikeBogina]

Since Sylvanas outsmarted N'zoth with the Dagger I don't think she would be tricked so easily.

I'm not really sure Sylvanas outsmarted anyone with the dagger, then again I didn't play any of that in game, but she just gave it to Azshara who didn't use it on N'zoth cause we beat her. Azshara then gives it to us, which is who it was given to in the first place by N'zoth/Xal and we have it to Wrathion... i think, i could be wrong.

See, because of the time difference in the shadowlands she could have been tortured in the maw for much longer than we are led to believe. So I gravitate toward 'compliance through torture' after all "what are we if not slaves to this Torment?" and even if she knows the Jailer is the only reason she went to the maw at that point what is she going to do about it? She has no agency: No one does. All she can do is wait for an opportunity.

Well we do have the short story that basically gives us the idea that she wasn't in the Maw for long, only long enough to see that this place was not where she wanted to be.
And timey-wimey stuff aside, I dont take any of that into consideration unless they go out of their way to say it happened. Sylvanas was there for a short time and only a short time passed in the real world while she was there.
And it's not the Jailer who would have brought her there, it would be the Valkyr who were present and the same Valkyr who brought her back, if she's aware of them being the ones who did that to her, she'd just have to kill them or not die around them and then she's in for a good trip to Revendreth until she repents, if she even has to go there.
So no i don't think she's aware at least at the time that the jailer was behind it.

One of those opportunities was in Stormheim: She knows the Jailer is forcing her fate towards the maw & she saw the chance of having her own Valkyr through Eyir as an opportunity to truly be free: But Genn ruined that.

Again, the Jailer has no power to send people straight to the Maw, he himself is a prisoner there. It's the Valkyr who would have delivered her to the Maw, creating more Valkyr, especially enslaving a powerful one to the will of Helya or the Jailer is counter-productive if she's working against him.

So no I dont think this has any chance of being true. I think for the most part, up until she shatters the Helm and actually goes to the Maw herself, that she is under the impression that she was destined for the Maw and that the Jailer is the only one who can keep her from that, because he's going to break open the Maw. She wants to shatter the system, unaware that she wasn't a victim of it to begin with.

Also Genn is just an idiot, that dude's actions in Stormheim is what justified the war in the first place. Hoping he dies soon.

[ChairmanKaga]

. She's a selfish bint, not exactly Mother Theresa.

Ironic considering Mother Theresa was a mess.

[FelPlague]

So she flings herself off icecrown, dies and goes to what she calls hell. She hates it and makes a deal with the valkyr to leave

Is the hell she talked about even the maw? Are there valkyr in the maw?

Why did she suddenly do an 180 and join the guy that made her afterlife miserable?

Did she go to another unknown realm? If someone is ressurected, are their souls just pulled from the shadowlands without the intervention of the pantheon of death?

Death is even more confusing than timetravel imo

1. yes there are valkyr in the maw, because valkyr on azeroth are vrykul who have been granted this "undeath angelic form" using power from the shadowlands, granted by both
A. to odin by making a deal with someone in the shadowlands
B. arthas, using the helmet.

2. Because while there she made a deal, and idk man, do i really need to explain why there is a difference between being head of a torture facility, and being a person sent there to be tortured? She didn't do a 180, she did a "hey i will make a deal with you, so you get what you want, and in exchange you don't torture me forever ok?"

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Technically speaking, the Edge of Night description of Sylvanas' afterlife resemble our current picture of the Maw.

If pre-Cata Sylvanas was considered worthy of the Maw, then something is really wrong with the moral state of the Shadowlands. I don't like current Sylvanas at all, but the self-righteous attitude of the Shadowlands I like even less.

1. no one goes directly to the maw, no one in history has, why everyone is freaking the fuck out that EVERYONE is going there.

2. as we see with uther and such with arthas, they can intercept people, so the jailor knew sylvanas was going to perish and was prepared, the second she did he had her valkyr take her to the maw to show her the worst possible nightmare, funnily enough she even saw arthas there, which also makes sense cause uther and such threw him there before she died!

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Don't try to apply any kind of logic to current year writing. You're gonna have a headache.

i mean if you cant understand it you might have a problem.

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The logistics of this is why I now agree with the popular theory that Uther yeeting Arthas soul is what put the Arbiter to sleep & broke the order of the Shadowlands. The only people who died after the fall of the Lich King but didn't go to the Maw were children of Elune who were saved by her miracles. And explains why there is an unused Cairne Bloodhoof npc designated to the Maw in the game's datamining.

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*Except Mal'ganis death was faked. And he continued to make more undead in Lordaeron IE The Scarlet Crusade
*There's more lore supporting my theory than yours. Which is "nothing". Why would you assume Uther was an exception & not the norm? Magic words? The NPCs of Bastion even state the Light has no power in Bastion & they think of the Light as an enemy as Naaru have attacked the shadowlands in the past.

This is entirely wrong though.
1. They mention that the arbiter has been out for a while but not a LONG time
2. it seems to have happened during mid to early legion, as there are people who died at the very start of legion who made it to their respective realms, and having it be wrath of the lich king would be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too soon


Garrosh, cookie, and those who fell in the emerald nightmare (ursoc for example)


3. the cairne bloodhoof NPC thing has nothing to do with him going to the maw, he is a memory from baine...
during the questing in the maw you USED to need to find memeories of your lost ally (Baine, Jaina, Thrall, anduin) throughout the tower of torghast, you would find people who effected their lives, many of them still alive (genn, jaina's mother and brother, etc)
but those were all cut except for jaina, as it meant it was super annoying to do this over and over.

That is why cairne was in the maw's database, cause he was a "memory" not actually there, just like how jaina's family wernt actually there, but just memories.


Sounds like these theories are from people who have not been playing/keeping up with the beta. as they would know MANY people who died in cata to legion made it into their respective realms. it is only at some point in legion it seems that the machine broke, as the only confirmed deaths sent there are ALL of the lives lost in the 4th war (the burning of teldrassil and such)

Even voljin was supposed to go to the correct realm.

[MikeBogina]

1. yes there are valkyr in the maw, because valkyr on azeroth are vrykul who have been granted this "undeath angelic form" using power from the shadowlands, granted by both

Well there wouldn't be any in the Maw until recently. Scourge Valkyr are weirdly enough, based on Odyn's Valkyr as it was apart of their culture when they joined up and Arthas used his death powers to make them, where Odyn's Valkyr actually use the Light and are based off the Kyrian. It is kinda neat how a group in the shadowlands inspired the Valkyr, who led to the Scourge Valkyr who are made from powers from the Shadowlands, and because it's Frostmourne and the Helm, the power is probably from the Maw.

But yeah, the Kyrian and Valkyr dont belong in the Maw, especially since they're designed to be able to cross the realms of life and death, makes you wonder if this was some well thought out plan of the Jailer or this weird luck just happened for him to benefit from, gaining those 9 Scourge Valkyr.

[Super Dickmann]

Ironic considering Mother Theresa was a mess.

@Magical Mudcrab

She had better PR than Sylvanas. She wouldn't have that sainthood if she'd pulled a glock and shot those Canadians or Hitchens. She stayed in character and so things went pretty well for her.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

So she flings herself off icecrown, dies and goes to what she calls hell. She hates it and makes a deal with the valkyr to leave

Is the hell she talked about even the maw? Are there valkyr in the maw?

Why did she suddenly do an 180 and join the guy that made her afterlife miserable?

Did she go to another unknown realm? If someone is ressurected, are their souls just pulled from the shadowlands without the intervention of the pantheon of death?

Death is even more confusing than timetravel imo

"This World is a prison, and I, will set us all free"

I think her goal -and maybe she is being duped by the Jailer- is to breaK existence itself and the machinery of death so the jailor is free, thus there would be no need for the maw.

It's like she got screwed by the system, so her ultimate goal is to completely destroy it, and create a new order that suits her.

She'll probably get double crossed, but as far motivations go, avoiding Hell by destroying it seems like an interesting approach

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Is the hell she talked about even the maw? Are there valkyr in the maw?

Yes, it is the Maw. How exactly the Val'kyr are connected is not exactly clear, nor is it clear why she went there in the first place.
Personally, I've never trusted the Val'kyr. Edge of Night always seemed incredibly suspicious. "We're breaking free of the Lich King because we're sick of being bound to him. Can we bind ourselves to you instead, with the added caveat that if you die we take your place in hell?" Seems dumb.

My theory is that the Val'kyr serve the Jailer, and they stole Sylvanas' soul just like Uther did with Arthas. Edge of Night was all theatrics for Sylvanas' benefit, to convince her that the system is unfair and it all needs to be torn down.

Why did she suddenly do an 180 and join the guy that made her afterlife miserable?

Ah, but that's the thing, she doesn't consider the Jailer responsible. He's just as trapped there as she was. Sylvanas believes that the Arbiter sent her there. It's that system that's broken. This world is a prison. Or so Sylvanas believes.

If someone is ressurected, are their souls just pulled from the shadowlands without the intervention of the pantheon of death?

It seems so, but that lore hasn't been clarified yet.

[FelPlague]

Well there wouldn't be any in the Maw until recently. Scourge Valkyr are weirdly enough, based on Odyn's Valkyr as it was apart of their culture when they joined up and Arthas used his death powers to make them, where Odyn's Valkyr actually use the Light and are based off the Kyrian. It is kinda neat how a group in the shadowlands inspired the Valkyr, who led to the Scourge Valkyr who are made from powers from the Shadowlands, and because it's Frostmourne and the Helm, the power is probably from the Maw.

But yeah, the Kyrian and Valkyr dont belong in the Maw, especially since they're designed to be able to cross the realms of life and death, makes you wonder if this was some well thought out plan of the Jailer or this weird luck just happened for him to benefit from, gaining those 9 Scourge Valkyr.

D..did you read the rest of the post... Do you... Do you know where odyn got his valkyr powers from? Literally you said "nah your wrong... But I'm gunna restate everything you just said."

Also kyrian have been going to the maw for a LONG time.. it's not something brand new...

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Yes, it is the Maw. How exactly the Val'kyr are connected is not exactly clear, nor is it clear why she went there in the first place.
Personally, I've never trusted the Val'kyr. Edge of Night always seemed incredibly suspicious. "We're breaking free of the Lich King because we're sick of being bound to him. Can we bind ourselves to you instead, with the added caveat that if you die we take your place in hell?" Seems dumb.

My theory is that the Val'kyr serve the Jailer, and they stole Sylvanas' soul just like Uther did with Arthas. Edge of Night was all theatrics for Sylvanas' benefit, to convince her that the system is unfair and it all needs to be torn down.



Ah, but that's the thing, she doesn't consider the Jailer responsible. He's just as trapped there as she was. Sylvanas believes that the Arbiter sent her there. It's that system that's broken. This world is a prison. Or so Sylvanas believes.




It seems so, but that lore hasn't been clarified yet.

The powers of the Valkyr originate from a mix of bastion and the maw.
The mawsworn are kyrian who left to the maw after becoming foresworn
The vlkyr are made using the maws power, through the helmet itself, a way of granting these angelic powers of guiding spirits to/from the shadowlands.

[Engal]

We have no confirmation for that. The sudden eclipse when Ysera died was repeatedly referred to as Elune's intervention by the Devs & I will continue to assume that. The fact that no one who died between ICC & now appears in the Shadowlands should be conspicuous information: Like I said, there's an unimplemented Cairne NPC that is filed in the Maw zone. Either is just theoretical at this point because neither have been confirmed (as Cainre could just be a vision of Baine's) Ursoc died *after* Ysera AND *after* Stormheim, but in his case he was a child of Elune, either Elune also saved him from the maw, or dying in the Dream works differently

Sorry but, the Dev said it was something that happened in Legion

Sargeras demise and Argus defeat happened after.

Anything happening after ED's raid and Antorus could work too.

( I suspect it's our fight in Nighthold against Elisande who broke the arbiter somehow since we created a new future during the fight that was outside of Elisande known future and she did not foresee anything about it, despite having the eye of Aman'Thul) she did not see any future were the Legion was defeated, and we made one. The Arbiter can see " all truth " according to her caretaker, and we know this meaning is related in seeing all possible future. We created a huge new future with the Legion out of the scope that probably made the arbiter all buggy because it was unexpected and wasn't part of her " Purpose " so she's rebooting)

[Magical Mudcrab]

@Magical Mudcrab

She had better PR than Sylvanas. She wouldn't have that sainthood if she'd pulled a glock and shot those Canadians or Hitchens. She stayed in character and so things went pretty well for her.

Fair enough, I guess we can say she's the Sylvanas who just wins the duel, rather than having a meltdown.

[MikeBogina]

D..did you read the rest of the post... Do you... Do you know where odyn got his valkyr powers from? Literally you said "nah your wrong... But I'm gunna restate everything you just said."

B..baka
the reason you have for there being Vrykul in the maw, is because Arthas and Odyn used powers from the Shadowlands(Odyn actually used light powers iirc) and I stated that they're based on Kyrians who are not in the maw, until very recently, but they are not Valkyr(Vrykul women) and we have no proof that Valkyr are in the Maw.
Also can you point me to where Kyrian have been going to the Maw for a LONG time, or do you mean them dropping people into the maw?

[Houle]

You didn't know Mal'ganis faked his death

lol. i did know that, but it doesnt make a difference. he was still shocked when arthas attacked him. and after he faked his death, he was incredibly mad at arthas/the LK.
when you meet him in wotlk, he wants revenge on him. which shows he definitely didnt work together with him.

you havent made a single argument which is supported by facts. the facts so far show that no LK was a jailer puppet

[scrappybristol]

I just know she's gonna pull a reverse card on all of us.

Something like the Jailer is invincible while in the Maw but if she helps break him out he will be vulnerable to death. She will be the new Illidan after the 2nd raid and once we kill the Jailer she will take his place as the new Jailer of the Maw and be regarded as an unsung hero of Azeroth.